Chakotay and 7 of 9, why?

[exodus]

Worf is super aggressive & lives for fighting

He clearly doesn't, or he'd have gone off to be a proper Klingon warrior instead of joining Starfleet.

For 7 years on TNG Worf explained to us how he couldn't go home because Klingons wouldn't except him being raised by humans and having their values. Worf then put the Klingon Empire first over his own honor by allowing his father to be disgraced.

Worf always put the Klingon Empire first over his own desires. Sounds like a patriot & true Klingon too me.

 

[exodus]

Sometimes giving in to fans needs such as a romance can kill a show too. "Moonlighting", "Silk Stalkings" & "The X-Files" are prime examples. Sexual tension is what kept the audience engaged.

I can agree on that. I've seen some examples of that which haven't worked.

But would it have been wrong to come up with a Janeway-Chakotay romance in the last episode, I mean the series was going to end. It would have been no harm to come up with such a pairing in the last episode. It would have delighted a large group of fans.

Ask X-Files fans how they feel about discovering Mulder & Scully had a sexual relationship & child together in the last episode. It's one of the main reasons why many die hard fans didn't turn out to see the last film. Putting them together even in the last episode killed any future the X-Files could of had.

This is the problem with sexual tension in a show, you're damned if you do & damned if you don't.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

For 7 years on TNG Worf explained to us how he couldn't go home because Klingons wouldn't except him being raised by humans and having their values.

Ha, but even Alexander, who was way less Klingony than Worf, ended up signing on with the Klingon fleet!

 

[exodus]

For 7 years on TNG Worf explained to us how he couldn't go home because Klingons wouldn't except him being raised by humans and having their values.

Ha, but even Alexander, who was way less Klingony than Worf, ended up signing on with the Klingon fleet!

Because they were loosing the war and there weren't enough Klingons to left to fight at the rate the Dominion was growing Jem'Hadar. Worf was also second in command onboard Martok's ship, a Klingon ship. Plus, the Klingon's don't require you to attend years at an academy to serve onboard their vessels.

 

[kimc]

It's just a small part of a weak finale, and not even the worst part. That said, it doesn't really work for me. Not to say that it couldn't possibly have worked, but it needed more time to develop (like Worf/Troi, which I like). If their relationship had developed over several episodes, then maybe, just maybe, it might have been OK, although for me it's still hamstrung by the fact that I think she's vastly more interesting than he is.

Seriously, you really believe little Miss Pris Troi who cried at everything could actually handle someone like Worf emotionally, not to mention sexually?

Worf is super aggressive & lives for fighting, Troi cried at just the "idea" of sending holographic Geordi to his death.

Worf/Troi had quite a bit of buildup so it seemed pretty natural. I'm glad they dropped it in the films since it wasn't the greatest idea but with the buildup you could at least see how it could have worked.

 

[JustKate]

I kind of liked Worf/Troi, too. At least, unlike most other Trek romances, it was allowed a slow buildup. Of course, when it became inconvenient plot-wise, they dropped it like a hot rock, but the buildup was kind of nice, I thought.

 

[kimc]

Sometimes giving in to fans needs such as a romance can kill a show too. "Moonlighting", "Silk Stalkings" & "The X-Files" are prime examples. Sexual tension is what kept the audience engaged.

I can agree on that. I've seen some examples of that which haven't worked.

But would it have been wrong to come up with a Janeway-Chakotay romance in the last episode, I mean the series was going to end. It would have been no harm to come up with such a pairing in the last episode. It would have delighted a large group of fans.

Ask X-Files fans how they feel about discovering Mulder & Scully had a sexual relationship & child together in the last episode. It's one of the main reasons why many die hard fans didn't turn out to see the last film. Putting them together even in the last episode killed any future the X-Files could of had.

Speaking as an X-Files fan there were plenty of other reasons I didn't go see the latest film. One is I didn't care much for the direction the "mythology" took. Second is the film seemed to ignore the series ending. Unfortunately, as great as X-Files was for several years the writers kept introducing new plotlines without tying up any older ones to the point where no one knew what the heck was going on.

This is the problem with sexual tension in a show, you're damned if you do & damned if you don't.

I have to agree with this. You can name off any number of shows where once the question of "Will they or won't they?" is resolved anything afterwards is anti-climatic.

I think another factor with Voyager is the writers didn't believe the desired demographic would be able to handle a romance involving an "older" woman like Janeway. (Never mind that Chakotay's character started out a few years older but got younger at the end of the series - go figure). I think Ron Moore with nuBSG proved with the Adama/Roslin pairing that sci-fi writers weren't giving the "desired demographic" enough credit.

 

[freak]

The 7 of 9 character to me was not that sexy. I know that especially here, I am a minority, but I never thought she (the character) was all that. Jeri Ryan the actress is attractive, but I just don't like her personality. I have always had a hardon for Janeway. M-I-L-F in spades.

What does this have anything to do with Chakotay or Seven hooking up?

Anywhoo....

Janeway repeatly called Chakotay "just a friend". Also take note, the Michael hologram in "Fair Haven" Janeway made to be more compatible with her. Chakotay had none qualities Janeway was looking for in a man. Compared to Michael, Chakotay was a brute.
When Chakotay had every chance tell Janeway he had feelings for her in "Workforce" but he said: "There's some lines we never cross."

So, it seems like neither one of them were romatically interested in each other.

Well, I personally blame the writers for this one here. I think there were sparks that flew between Chakotay and Janeway more so than Seven of Nine. I don't particularly care for her either..but do think she is an attractive woman in real life without all that Borg crap on her. She reminded me of a vulcan-no emotions..an automaton. And in Endgame I got annoyed as well..more so with Chakotay and Seven of Nine's relationship. I felt it was rushed because in the beginning Chakotay couldn't even stand Seven!(watch the episode "Scorpion" one time..you'll see why!) I don't get it either..and I love romance in Star Trek but it does seem like the most UNLIKELY couple ALWAYS gets together..it's like there's no happy ending in Star Trek when it comes to relationships and frankly that sucks bricks, or in this case, sucks some big leola root stew! !!!! Just kidding! Anyhow, that was indeed for me the lowest part of Voyager- Chakotay and Seven's relationship and the fact that they get back home with the Borg's help and a future Admiral Janeway that was putting the prime directive on the line to help her past shipmates get home. That annoyed me as well! The ending threw me for a loop too..I was like: THAT'S HOW THEY'RE ENDING THIS SHOW! THAT'S BULLSHIT!

 

[exodus]

I can agree on that. I've seen some examples of that which haven't worked.

But would it have been wrong to come up with a Janeway-Chakotay romance in the last episode, I mean the series was going to end. It would have been no harm to come up with such a pairing in the last episode. It would have delighted a large group of fans.

Ask X-Files fans how they feel about discovering Mulder & Scully had a sexual relationship & child together in the last episode. It's one of the main reasons why many die hard fans didn't turn out to see the last film. Putting them together even in the last episode killed any future the X-Files could of had.

Speaking as an X-Files fan there were plenty of other reasons I didn't go see the latest film. One is I didn't care much for the direction the "mythology" took. Second is the film seemed to ignore the series ending. Unfortunately, as great as X-Files was for several years the writers kept introducing new plotlines without tying up any older ones to the point where no one knew what the heck was going on.

This is the problem with sexual tension in a show, you're damned if you do & damned if you don't.

I have to agree with this. You can name off any number of shows where once the question of "Will they or won't they?" is resolved anything afterwards is anti-climatic.

I think another factor with Voyager is the writers didn't believe the desired demographic would be able to handle a romance involving an "older" woman like Janeway. (Never mind that Chakotay's character started out a few years older but got younger at the end of the series - go figure). I think Ron Moore with nuBSG proved with the Adama/Roslin pairing that sci-fi writers weren't giving the "desired demographic" enough credit.

What of the fact Kate Mulgrew herself said "no" repeatedly to the idea of any romantic relationship with any of her crew mates? It's also been said that Mulgrew herself had some hands on involvement in "Endgame" and still opted out of the J/C pairing? So I'm not completely sure it was completely the writers alone that were against J/C.

As for the X-Files, there were many nails in that coffin. M/S and baby was just one more to add to it.

As far as Worf/Troi. Sure there was build up but that doesn't mean they were right together for a relationship. We all knew Troi should be with Riker, not Worf. Again, Picard/Crusher had years of build up, yet they never crossed that line leaving the sexual tension for fans never becoming as you say "anti-climatic".



As for C/7, is what we've seen & know of their relationship any different that Tom Cruise & Katie Holmes? Katie dreamed her marrying her perfect man which was Tom Cruise. Tom Cruise flattered by this girl that strokes his ego falls for her and they marry. Seven see's Chakotay as the alpha male on Voyager and uses him as the example of the perfect mate for her holo-fantasy. Chakotay at discovering this becomes flattered that the hottest women on the ship desires him, thus stroking his ego. In return they start a relationship. Look at most tabloid relationships.

Is it art imitating life?

 

[Kai Winn]

What I thought was kind of silly and forced in the end was the realtionship of Chakotay and 7 of 9, which seemed to happen at the last episode of the series. I wonder why the writers did this?

not so. in episode 'human error' 7 was in love with chakotay already, and neglected her work. coupla episodes later, 'natural law', they spend some quality time together, and with a tribe of primitive hominids.
chakotay is 14 years older than 7, 42 in endgame. as old as riker and data, younger than sisko or miles. in comparison, neelix is 43 years older than kes.
alexander was mentioned in the thread. he joined the rotarran when he was 8 years old. worf was 13 when he killed a human child during a soccer match.
i reckon that section 31 will disappear and disassemble 7 as a thread to the federation, so chakotay will die from broken heart anyway.

 

[Anwar]

Beltran kept complaining to the Production team, so they decided to close his mouth by jamming Jeri Ryan's tongue down it. That worked out well for both side's satisfaction, I'd say.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

As much as I DON'T like the C/7 pairing, I think it was necessary to the story of why Admiral Janeway came back from the future to change her history in "Endgame". She loved Chakotay, and Tuvok, and Seven too much to let that be their legacy.

I think I could have "handled" the idea of a C/7 relationship if they had not pushed it as far as they did in the original "present" timeline. True, it was just the "infancy" of the coupling, but to have Chakotay swearing his undying love after just 5 dates to a woman that he'd been telling his Captain for 4 years that they shouldn't trust/should leave behind (as recently as "Imperfection") etc... well, that was a bit much too soon for me. I suppose we are to assume that "Natural Law" and "Human Error" were forshadowing the big C/7 hookup, but even in "Human Error" Seven seems to indicate that it was her experience with recalling her relationship Axum that led her to experiment with love on the holodeck, not an overpowering desire to kiss Chakotay. She was pulling a "Fairhaven", and just peopled it with Voyager crew, not Irish villagers.

The other thing I hated re: the C/7 hookup, was the whole undoing of the tragedy that was Seven and her "emotional chip/cortical node". Data had no emotions, and was given the ability to feel if he wanted too... he could turn it on/off at will. Seven had emotions, but couldn't access them without shutting her life down completely by crashing her cortical node. Making her far "worse" than a Vulcan in terms of emotional denial. But a studious Doctor just happens to be studying the problem for the last few months and can not only cure her, but do it in one operation before tonight's big date? Oh puhlease.

Finally, there was that "creepy" factor by pairning C/7. Creepy in that many of us see J/7 as a Mother/Daughter pairing, one that Chakotay himself has recognized. Many of us see a relationship between J/C that goes beyond Captain/Executive officer... even if that "relationship" was only spiritual as Mulgrew would have us believe. (Oh puhlease!) To then have the erstlwhile lover of the "Mother" turn to become the lover of the Daughter is just.... icky. IMO. YMMV and probably does. ;-)

 

[AuntKate]

^^Janewayrulz! I agree totally with everything you said.

I bet you do, too, KimC? Right?

 

[Wicca who Wonta]

Well said JanewayRulz! You said it all in your post!

 

[Deckerd]

I'm not a shipper so I don't really have a right to post here but since there was one very grown-up love affair on Voyager from its beginnings right to the conclusion, (nevertheless I don't think pandering to soap opera buffs really adds anything to this genre) I could forgive them sparing us another one and just giving us a brief glimpse at the end. They are both very attractive people. It seemed fine to me.

 

[Brit]

(nevertheless I don't think pandering to soap opera buffs really adds anything to this genre)

I don't think a romance ending in a commitment between Janeway and Chakotay is pandering to the "soap opera buffs". I do think Science Fiction in general could use a lot more romance in its make-up. Romance + Science Fiction were what drew me into J/C fan fiction in the first place.

From my standpoint as a writer, it is impossible to write believable Chakotay/Seven without changing the characters themselves so that their personalities become distorted. Most the parings for Seven on Voyager have problems, the Doctor is viable and I think Mort Harren might be (it’s an idea I’ve been toying with for a long time) the other possibility is Reg Barclay. I’m not saying this to be funny or to put Seven’s character down, I’m saying it because I can see interesting possibilities, a Seven /Harren relationship would be like throwing a match into a powder keg.

Romance + Science Fiction is the coming genre. It features strong female heroines like Admiral Brit (Stoneheart) Bandar in “Moonstruck”-Susan Grant, Rya Bennton in “Hope’s Folly”-Linnea Sinclair or Sirantha Jax “Grimspace”-Ann Aguirre.

Finally the Powers That Be can say all they want about there being no Janeway/Chakotay relationship past friendship. They said the same thing about Matt Dillon and Miss Kitty for over twenty years and very few fans believed that either.

Brit

 

[kes7]

I really like the Seven/Harren idea for some reason. That had never crossed my mind before, but the more I think about it, the more sense it makes.

 

[Deckerd]

(nevertheless I don't think pandering to soap opera buffs really adds anything to this genre)

I don't think a romance ending in a commitment between Janeway and Chakotay is pandering to the "soap opera buffs".

I didn't mean that pairing. I know this is the geek position but romance really doesn't enhance science fiction unless it's done very well. I was always narked by the 'sudden true love' stories which were forgotten next episode. The very few occasions when it was explicitly merely sex (on Raisa for example) were refreshing.

 

[kes7]

At the risk of dragging this thread off track, WHY do so many people oppose romance in SF? I think it adds layers to the characterizations ... I cared about Paris and Torres a lot more together than I did separately. Everything that happened to one of them made me think of how the other was feeling, and vice versa. It made them more complex and interesting. Trek in particular has a way of reducing people to stereotypes, and I think the romances and hints of romance helped mitigate that somewhat, at least when they were romances that made some sense.

 

[Deckerd]

Well if you read what I said upthread, I pointed out that there was one coupling in Voyager that was treated in a mature manner throughout the course of the series and alright I didn't spell it out but there weren't that many.