Abramsverse: How does the polictic landscape look now?

[Nerys Myk]

The Romulans are what interests me. In the last twenty years or so a Romulan has twice attacked the Klingons and the Federation with advanced technology. What's the Empire's reaction to this? Their best kept secret ( they're Vulcanoids) is out of the bag. Sure they can blame it on a "rogue faction", but will that make the Klingons happy? What about relations with the Federation between the Kelvin attack and the detruction of Vulcan? Did they, in typical Romulan fashion, close their borders and cut off communication? Are they still woprking on cloaking tech? Wil they reach out to their Vulcan brothers following the destruction of Vulcan? Will Vulcans reach out to them? Is there a Revenge faction in the remaining Vulcan population? (is that possible?) What was the Federation ( and especially Earths) reaction to the Romulans being related to the Vulcans?

 

[Geckothan]

I'm sure if you took a photo of it, there'd be some lens flares.

 

[Dale]

First contact may have already been made with the Cardassians, which may complicate things. And the Organians probably haven't used their handwavium to prevent a war with the Klingons, so that might be a concern in a couple of years.

Premature first contact with the Cardassians does seem like a strong possibility here.

Cadet Uhura ordered a Cardassian beverage in the bar in Riverside, Iowa. I think we can take an early first contact as read in this 'verse.

 

[Nerys Myk]

That whole Cardassian poet living on Vulcan in the 22nd Century makes me wonder when first contact happened. The Cardies might be a known, but mostly irrelevent species from the 22nd Century till they start kicking puppies and taking candy from babies in the 24th.

 

[Sci]

First contact may have already been made with the Cardassians, which may complicate things. And the Organians probably haven't used their handwavium to prevent a war with the Klingons, so that might be a concern in a couple of years.

Premature first contact with the Cardassians does seem like a strong possibility here.

Cadet Uhura ordered a Cardassian beverage in the bar in Riverside, Iowa. I think we can take an early first contact as read in this 'verse.

Not necessarily. For one, TNG and DS9 never established when First Contact with the Cardassians took place, except that a Cardassian dissident was exiled to Vulcan in the 22nd Century -- implying the possibility of at least that individual Cardassian having reached Federation space early in UFP history.

For another, it's important to bear in mind that it's possible the Federation has been importing Cardassian goods through intermediaries without actually having direct contact with the Cardassians, in the same way that Europe imported goods from China for centuries without having direct contact with the Chinese.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

That whole Cardassian poet living on Vulcan in the 22nd Century makes me wonder when first contact happened. The Cardies might be a known, but mostly irrelevent species from the 22nd Century till they start kicking puppies and taking candy from babies in the 24th.

The way I wrote it in my own story was this.

The Cardassians were known, but contact was very minimal. In the prime timeline, this was due to a trade embargo placed by the Federation, kinda like the stance the US takes towards powers like North Korea, Iran, and Cuba. Said embargo went into place in the prime timeline around the time the movie took place in the altered one. So, until the border skirmishing really started (in the early 24th century), there was no real contact or discussion with the Cardassians.

But here's what changes in the Trek XI universe. Seeing the power of the Narada, the Federation never places that trade embargo, though there are no official overtures. Free-spacers go back and forth across the border...either intermediaries as Sci suggests, or Federation civilians. There's also some very quiet, back-door diplomacy between the Federation and the Union. Both powers have a beef with the Romulans and Klingons, so there's talk of an alliance should the Narada ever strike again. Both powers are very uneasy with each other, and fundamentally opposed to each other's ways so this would NOT be a fun alliance, at all. But, this Federation--especially after the Vulcan genocide--is desperate, cornered, and ready to do things they would never have contemplated in the gentler, more idealistic timeline that leads to TNG. It's a relationship of expediency, no more, no less.

 

[Kegg]

The Cardassians were known, but contact was very minimal. In the prime timeline, this was due to a trade embargo placed by the Federation, kinda like the stance the US takes towards powers like North Korea, Iran, and Cuba.

Problem is you have to know somewhere fairly well to conduct a trade embargo. Why not more like China and the Silk Road? The Romans knew vaguely of the exitence of a country where the silk came from, but even that little information was dubious - they got the stuff secondhand. It's possible that Cardassian goods had filtered into the Federation by means of a third party.

That said, the prime universe date of first contact is sort of vague. When the Cardassians first appear in TNG they're alreay a de facto concern of the Federation for at least a decade - and they're reasonably connected with the Romulans and Klingons as well, as we subsequently learn. It's possible if not likely that Cardassians were known of in TOS, just as it's almost definite that Betazoids were known at that time.

 

[Sci]

For what it's worth, the novel Titan: Taking Wing established that first contact with the Cardassian Union occurred while Federation President Thelianaresth th'Vorothishria of Andor was in office, placing it around the 2320s. However, first contact between the UFP and CU governments may of course be different from the first contact between any Cardassians and Federates throughout history.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Cadet Uhura ordered a Cardassian beverage in the bar in Riverside, Iowa. I think we can take an early first contact as read in this 'verse.

Maybe. Maybe not. The bartender got ahold of Cardassian drinks, yes. It establishes nothing about how much is known about the Cardassian race as a whole, or how much contact the two cultures have had.

That whole Cardassian poet living on Vulcan in the 22nd Century makes me wonder when first contact happened.

Again, it doesn't establish anything other than the fact that a Cardassian was living on Vulcan. He could have come to them without their governments having had any contact with each other. He was in exile, after all; he was probably just looking for a safe place to live. Vulcan could have known little, or even nothing, about Cardassia.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

The Cardassians were known, but contact was very minimal. In the prime timeline, this was due to a trade embargo placed by the Federation, kinda like the stance the US takes towards powers like North Korea, Iran, and Cuba.

Problem is you have to know somewhere fairly well to conduct a trade embargo.

Not sure you have to know them all that well...we don't know THAT well what goes on in North Korea. There'd be reports from worlds nearby, not to mention the accounts Iloja of Prim likely provided, would be enough. Plus, if the Federation's smart, they would've probably attempted to spy on the Cardassians or at least get information from traders who are coming in and out of their space. Finally, you have signals intelligence--not everything's going to be on a scrambled frequency, and a lot of that material would be very useful as well.

 

[PhasersOnStun]

Cadet Uhura ordered a Cardassian beverage in the bar in Riverside, Iowa. I think we can take an early first contact as read in this 'verse.

Maybe. Maybe not. The bartender got ahold of Cardassian drinks, yes.

Maybe, maybe not.

All we really know is that she ordered a drink with "Cardassian" in the name (Cardassian Sunrise). But is it really a Cardassian drink? Right now, I can order a "White Russian" that is not actually a Russian drink--so named only because it has Vodka. It is just as possible that Cardassian Sunrise was simply a creative name, invented by a bartender who imagined that the color of the drink was close to a Cardassian sunrise.

(I should add here that I have no clue about non TOS episodes featuring Cardassian drinks, I'm a TOS guy)

 

[Kegg]

PhasersOnStun - Mostly the only Cardassian drink featured on Star Trek was kanar on DS9. There weren't any Cardassian sunrises prior to the new movie, so it could just be a name like a White Russian or French fries or Champagne or whatever.

But we have names like White Russian and French fries because we've heard of these things called Russians and the French, so the same here follows. People know there's somebody called 'Cardassian' out there in the cosmos.

Not sure you have to know them all that well...we don't know THAT well what goes on in North Korea.

But you know where North Korea is on a map and you've had ambassadors tehre and communication and so on. The level of contact America has with just about every country on earth is enough to qualify for something beyond a 'first contact' standard.

To conduct a trade embargo you'd have to be able to trade with the CU, and to be able to trade with them directly means a de facto first-contacted race.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

^ Orci and Kurtzman have said that the 10,000 does NOT include Vulcans who were offworld at the time the planet was destroyed. linky

If that is true, Spock's comment of belonging to an endangered species doesn't make sense.

Which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever! What possible reason could a man who's just witnessed the annihilation of his homeworld, an act of attempted genocide, and the murder of his mother have to be thinking a bit irrationally and jump to a hyperbolic conclusion?

There was nothing attempted about the Vulcan genocide.
That being said, I agree millions of vulcans lived off world and survived. This is a logical consequence of the vulcans being starfaring for millenia and is all but proved by the references to vulcan colonies/outposts/etc on other planets which litter all trek series - not to mention that vulcans are the second most common federation species as seen on-screen (which is completely incompatible with vulcans being "insular").

Another gaping writing error for the Trek fanworld to patch up. Just make it up as you go along, screenwriters, 40 years of story-telling, world-building and timelines do not matter.

Sorry.... I love Star Trek, but I just cannot handle that film.... no disrespect to any fan who does like it though... I guess I am not as tolerant.

You do realise that star trek canon is fictional, that it does not correspond to any objective truth and, as such, can be modified by the star trek franchise owners, yes?
Frankly, I could never empathise with this purist feeling - star trek canon is sacred and it can't be "violated".

If you wish to express your frustrations regarding Star Trek 11, I suggest you to criticise aspects of the movie that are actually bordering incredulity - there are enough of them:

Magical transporters that do all the work for our heroes - beam to a ship light years away, moving at warp from a shuttle or beaming to Narada from the other side of the solar system;
Kirk having a cadet-captain in a week career.

NOT millions of vulcans surviving; here you are overextending yourself - your logic is forced, based on too many highly improbable assumptions - and it shows.

 

[Traveller]

The Romulans are what interests me. In the last twenty years or so a Romulan has twice attacked the Klingons and the Federation with advanced technology. What's the Empire's reaction to this? Their best kept secret ( they're Vulcanoids) is out of the bag. Sure they can blame it on a "rogue faction", but will that make the Klingons happy? What about relations with the Federation between the Kelvin attack and the detruction of Vulcan? Did they, in typical Romulan fashion, close their borders and cut off communication? Are they still woprking on cloaking tech? Wil they reach out to their Vulcan brothers following the destruction of Vulcan? Will Vulcans reach out to them? Is there a Revenge faction in the remaining Vulcan population? (is that possible?) What was the Federation ( and especially Earths) reaction to the Romulans being related to the Vulcans?

Well, let's hope they adress at least some of these questions in the next movie; after all, the Klingons had the Narada parked in orbit for TWENTY-FIVE YEARS. They must have upgraded their ships with this futuristic kick-ass technology, and that should have dire consequences for the Federation. I'd be severely disappointed if the next movie didn't deal with the consequences of ST XI.

*dreaming of a Romulan-Federation alliance that would give lots of screentime to the Romulans*

 

[BlackestPanther]

No, they don't -- not as much as telling a good story.

Let me know when they manage to do that. This new Star Trek movie was all flash a no substance. There wasn't anything resembling a story in it at all. It's just a bunch of stuff that happened.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Not sure you have to know them all that well...we don't know THAT well what goes on in North Korea.

But you know where North Korea is on a map and you've had ambassadors tehre and communication and so on. The level of contact America has with just about every country on earth is enough to qualify for something beyond a 'first contact' standard.

To conduct a trade embargo you'd have to be able to trade with the CU, and to be able to trade with them directly means a de facto first-contacted race.

Are you sure we actually have a full-fledged ambassador to North Korea? Even if we do now, I would expect there have been periods where we did not (I KNOW we've cut diplomatic ties with Iran at times.). That doesn't mean we're any less aware of their existence, though. So you can definitely know about someone but refuse diplomatic/economic ties to them.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

For what it's worth, the novel Titan: Taking Wing established that first contact with the Cardassian Union occurred while Federation President Thelianaresth th'Vorothishria of Andor was in office, placing it around the 2320s. However, first contact between the UFP and CU governments may of course be different from the first contact between any Cardassians and Federates throughout history.

Indeed, "Day of the Vipers" suggests that Cardassian ships have had unpleasant encounters with Federation vessels along the border as early as the 2310s. I assume that :

Cardassia was in fact known to the Federation as early as the 22nd century ("Enterprise" established they had enough space-going capability to reach Organian haunts by then, and as mentioned Iloja of Prim lived on Vulcan during this period). However, because Cardassia was by no means a planet of note- just one of thousands of unremarkable worlds- it got entered into records without anyone in the Federation core sectors bothering with it or making official contact. It was just a world out there somewhere beyond the Kalandra sector/Trill space (which several TOS books have decreed to be the edge of the Federation sphere of influence by Kirk's time). Federation citizens and Cardassians met every now and then, but never officially, and their governments were not concerned with one another. By the 2310s, however, the military expansion is beginning. Cardassia is no longer just an unremarkable world but a nascent local power. Ships identified as Cardassian begin getting involved in fights with Federation-affiliated vessels along the border region, as well as the war with the Talarians mentioned in "Day of the Vipers". Eventually, in 2327, official first contact is made and the Federation invites Cardassia to send delegates to the Legara IV conference. As we know from the books, it was a disaster and Cardassia became a confirmed threat rather than a potential new ally. The next year saw the Bajor occupation start and the Betreka Nebula Incident. Now Cardassia was an up-and-coming interstellar power. So while it had been know for centuries, it was only in the early 24th century that it became notable and invited official contact, and only then did it become anything other than an unremarkable border world among thousands of unremarkable border worlds.

PS: I always thought it appropriate that Iloja chose to live on Vulcan. Vulcan and Cardassia are similar in that they're desert worlds with a population who embrace stoic mental discipline as a way of life.

 

[Takeru]

so it could just be a name like a White Russian or French fries or Champagne or whatever.

Just for the record, Champagne is not just a name, it's only called Champagne when it was produced in Champagne, France. Otherwise it's just sparkling wine, no exceptions.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

PS: I always thought it appropriate that Iloja chose to live on Vulcan. Vulcan and Cardassia are similar in that they're desert worlds with a population who embrace stoic mental discipline as a way of life.

I did too, although I think the lack of emotional display would still be disconcerting for a Cardassian. They are sometimes choosy about what they show to who, but I've always had the impression of a passionate people underneath it all.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

PS: I always thought it appropriate that Iloja chose to live on Vulcan. Vulcan and Cardassia are similar in that they're desert worlds with a population who embrace stoic mental discipline as a way of life.

I did too, although I think the lack of emotional display would still be disconcerting for a Cardassian. They are sometimes choosy about what they show to who, but I've always had the impression of a passionate people underneath it all.

Oh yes, I agree. The form taken by that mental discipline and outward stoicism is somewhat different. As you say, Cardassians don't aim to supress emotion, merely to behave in an ordered and highly disciplined way.