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Starship size does matter...

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Bridge set is around 20m in diameter. Given this angle, that means the saucer is about 140m wide, as eyeballing the thing the saucer is 7 bridges wide.

http://reboot.trekcaps.net/caps/Star_Trek/ariane179254_StarTrek_8487.jpg

First of all, how do you eyeball that in a shot where the entire saucer isn't even visible? Second of all, how do you eyeball the diameter of the BRIDGE when the only thing visible in this image is the WINDOW?

C-minus for the project. Go back and find an image that shows the entire saucer, then figure out the diameter of the WINDOW, and then measure--do not eyeball, but MEASURE--the diameter of the saucer based on the window.
 
Bridge set is around 20m in diameter. Given this angle, that means the saucer is about 140m wide, as eyeballing the thing the saucer is 7 bridges wide.

http://reboot.trekcaps.net/caps/Star_Trek/ariane179254_StarTrek_8487.jpg

First of all, how do you eyeball that in a shot where the entire saucer isn't even visible? Second of all, how do you eyeball the diameter of the BRIDGE when the only thing visible in this image is the WINDOW?

Easy.
1) Take index finger and thumb and measure width of bridge.
2) Count the number of bridge widths on one side of the saucer. (I picked starboard). This yields 2.75 bridges from the edge of the actual bridge to the edge of the screen.
3) Since the damn thing is a circle, anyone with decent spacial skills can have a pretty good idea of WHERE it will end. If YOU want to take the time, and have a reason for wanting that level of accuracy, you can calculate it yourself using your mad geometry skillz. I just figured the rest of the saucer would fill the last .25 of a bridge.
4) multiply and add (3*2+1=7)
5) Ballpark the width of the bridge (I'd say 20-25m, which is probably generous). This is arrived at by looking at the actual set, which looks like roughly 50 feet wide (15m) and adding a margin for the exterior skin based on the windows (which because of their inset suggest the shell around the bridge is roughly 1m, but I'm again being generous.
6) multiply the answer from #4 by #5. Answer is 140 to 175 meters, since the ship has a length to width ratio somewhere between 2 and 3, that yields a length of between 280m (with 140m saucer and 2x length, almost certainly a lowball) to 525m (175m saucer and 3x length, almost certainly a highball).

Now, doing this in reverse, if you take a 725m length, divide by 2.5 (rough l/w ratio), you get a saucer width of 300 meters. Since the bridge deck is 1/7 the width of the whole saucer, that means at that scale the bridge would be 41 meters wide, or 135 feet. That's a lot bigger than what's shown on screen.

In summation, am I trying to establish an exact size? Nope. You can't without knowing some exact facts which aren't available. I'm attempting to put an upper and lower limit on the size of the ship, which seems to be the main argument here, based on the ship and only the ship. It's about creating a margin of error whereas before even that did not exist.
 
^^ Maybe those big structures that we see faded by distance when we see in Iowa for the kid-Kirk chase scene are huge tractor towers that help lift ships into orbit?
 
Bridge set is around 20m in diameter. Given this angle, that means the saucer is about 140m wide, as eyeballing the thing the saucer is 7 bridges wide.

http://reboot.trekcaps.net/caps/Star_Trek/ariane179254_StarTrek_8487.jpg

First of all, how do you eyeball that in a shot where the entire saucer isn't even visible? Second of all, how do you eyeball the diameter of the BRIDGE when the only thing visible in this image is the WINDOW?

Easy.
1) Take index finger and thumb and measure width of bridge.
Mistake number one: the BRIDGE isn't visible in that image, only the window in the front of it. You don't know how wide the bridge is relative to the window since you haven't bothered to measure it.

3) Since the damn thing is a circle, anyone with decent spacial skills can have a pretty good idea of WHERE it will end.
"A pretty good idea" does not amount to measurement, especially since you're "eyeballing" based on your own fingerprint and don't actually know where the rim of the saucer is.

If YOU want to take the time, and have a reason for wanting that level of accuracy,
I already did. WEEKS ago, using orthos from the internet and some of Tobias Richter's renders. Based on an estimate of 7m for the window, I came out with 370 meters. 5m for the window came to 320 meters. This put the overall length of the ship between 710 and 790 meters.

5) Ballpark the width of the bridge (I'd say 20-25m, which is probably generous).
What visual feature are you referring to as "the bridge" here?

In summation, am I trying to establish an exact size? Nope.
You don't seem to be establishing anything except your ability to make wild guesses about things you know next to nothing about.:vulcan:
 
I know, that would be as dumb as sticking the ships command center at the top of the saucer in a big bullseye...oh wait...
You're right, that is pretty stupid. It's only one of the biggest complaints I've ever seen about the ship design in Star Trek. :techman:

So what? Its a futuristic hud, that looked great on screen.
Aside from being stupid and exposing the bridge even more than before? I guess just the lameness and simultaneous hilarity of actually making the viewscreen a window when stupid people have thought that's what it's been all along. :lol: Then again they also mixed up the whole "warbird" thing, so I can only imagine that Darth Vader is going to show up at some point.
 
Mistake number one: the BRIDGE isn't visible in that image, only the window in the front of it. You don't know how wide the bridge is relative to the window since you haven't bothered to measure it.

No, I took the whole damn deck, which encompasses the whole bridge, plus whatever the hell is between the interior wall and the exterior plating. It's a rough estimate with bias towards making the ship as large as possible, and seeing whether or not the ship comes even grossly close to any size figure given out by movie crew and contractors.

I'm not turning this into a statistics/geometry problem. It's a ESTIMATE with a massive margin of error (granted that would be reduced if I actually bothered to measure length to width ratio), and it still disqualifies the idea the ship was designed, modified or even bothered to match the upsized scale that's been most widely published.

You can argue with the givens, but I was fairly lenient with those with a deliberate bias towards the supersize. Give the ship 8 bridge widths and it still doesn't change much. Tell me the bridge deck is 80 feet wide (I'll question your spacial comprehension, but I'll listen) and it won't matter. The methodology is sound for what I was attempting to accomplish.
 
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Aside from being stupid and exposing the bridge even more than before?

Considering that it's been safe for starships to have windows for a long time in Trek's history (production wise), there's no reason that having one for the bridge wouldn't be more dangerous than not having one. Either it's safe for a starship to have windows, or it isn't. Why risk a hull breach by having one?

Hell, Nemesis showed that not having the window is the be-all-and-all of safe bridge design regardless.

I guess just the lameness and simultaneous hilarity of actually making the viewscreen a window when stupid people have thought that's what it's been all along. :lol:

And these stupid people are who exactly?

Then again they also mixed up the whole "warbird" thing, so I can only imagine that Darth Vader is going to show up at some point.

Considering that 'warbird' isn't a specific class, rather a general classification along the lines of 'battlecruiser', I'd not put any stock in the error of that. Hell, I thought you'd be making more a fuss about it being 47 ships* that kick the can, rather than what they called them.

*Yeah, I know there's the running joke of 47, but keep it reasonable Orci :p
 
Mistake number one: the BRIDGE isn't visible in that image, only the window in the front of it. You don't know how wide the bridge is relative to the window since you haven't bothered to measure it.

No, I took the whole damn deck, which encompasses the whole bridge, plus whatever the hell is between the interior wall and the exterior plating. It's a rough estimate with bias towards making the ship as large as possible, and seeing whether or not the ship comes even grossly close to any size figure given out by movie crew and contractors.

I'm not turning this into a statistics/geometry problem. It's a ESTIMATE with a massive margin of error (granted that would be reduced if I actually bothered to measure length to width ratio), and it still disqualifies the idea the ship was designed, modified or even bothered to match the upsized scale that's been most widely published.

You can argue with the givens, but I was fairly lenient with those with a deliberate bias towards the supersize. Give the ship 8 bridge widths and it still doesn't change much. Tell me the bridge deck is 80 feet wide (I'll question your spacial comprehension, but I'll listen) and it won't matter. The methodology is sound for what I was attempting to accomplish.

The bridge does not fill the entirety of that deck. There are at least two other rooms on each side of the bridge - or did you see these two other windows anywhere on the bridge.

So, your estimates are entirely wrong, I'm afraid.
 
No...the bridge occupies the entire width as seen in the head-on image. Those rooms would have to be behind the circular bridge module, in the trapezoidal aft extension, or a deck lower. Or the whole damn thing doesn't make sense. You can clearly see below that the bridge occupies the entire circular area of the saucer superstructure on that deck.

From the Blu-Ray:



Funny piece of Trivia, as originally designed, the Probert TMP Enterprise was arranged in the same Deck1=Glowing Sensor Dome/Deck2=Bridge setup as the ST11 design we have here. For whatever reason, I forget who and why, the powers at be decided not to light up the sensor dome, and it eventually became part of the bridge when the ship was repainted for ST4.
 
No...the bridge occupies the entire width as seen in the head-on image. Those rooms would have to be behind the circular bridge module, in the trapezoidal aft extension, or a deck lower. Or the whole damn thing doesn't make sense. You can clearly see below that the bridge occupies the entire circular area of the saucer superstructure on that deck.

No, it does not:



The bridge isn't big enough to fill the whole deck. That there is more than enough room on either side of the bridge is evidenced by this corridor on the right-hand-side of the bridge:

 
Considering that it's been safe for starships to have windows for a long time in Trek's history (production wise), there's no reason that having one for the bridge wouldn't be more dangerous than not having one. Either it's safe for a starship to have windows, or it isn't. Why risk a hull breach by having one?
Sure there is, because it's the bridge and not just any other part of the ship.

Hell, Nemesis showed that not having the window is the be-all-and-all of safe bridge design regardless.
Aside from being a horrible movie, it illustrated how having the bridge on the top of the ship really isn't such a great idea.

And these stupid people are who exactly?
The people who have always thought the viewscreen was a windshield and confuse Star Wars and Star Trek with each other.

Considering that 'warbird' isn't a specific class, rather a general classification along the lines of 'battlecruiser', I'd not put any stock in the error of that.
Except that the warbird designation has been pretty consistently used to describe Romulan ships. The only other time it was used to describe Klingon ships was in ENT, and Brannon Braga later admitted that was a mistake on his part. It's the type of mistake I would expect from someone who might mix the Romulans and Klingons up or who thinks the viewscreen is a windshield.

Hell, I thought you'd be making more a fuss about it being 47 ships* that kick the can, rather than what they called them.

*Yeah, I know there's the running joke of 47, but keep it reasonable Orci :p
Why would I care how many ships their uber-ship of death manages to blow up? What bothers me more is that Nero and his biker gang managed to somehow lose the ship to the Klingons for a couple of decades despite how invincible the ship apparently is, then managed to get it back because the Klingons apparently kept it parked nearby and never bothered trying to tear the ship apart for its secrets.
 
Considering that it's been safe for starships to have windows for a long time in Trek's history (production wise), there's no reason that having one for the bridge wouldn't be more dangerous than not having one. Either it's safe for a starship to have windows, or it isn't. Why risk a hull breach by having one?
Sure there is, because it's the bridge and not just any other part of the ship.

If there's little or no practical difference in strength for that size area between having a transparent aluminium (this isn't glass we're talking about) and standard hull material, why not have the viewscreen a transparent material, if you can overlay any other information you might want besides what's directly ahead? Just saying 'it's the bridge' doesn't suffice, unless you can give good reasons for it.

Hell, Nemesis showed that not having the window is the be-all-and-all of safe bridge design regardless.
Aside from being a horrible movie, it illustrated how having the bridge on the top of the ship really isn't such a great idea.[/quote]

I think ol' GR has a specific reason for bridge's being up top, but I can't remember what it is. I wouldn't be happy putting the bridge on the top of the ship either though.


The people who have always thought the viewscreen was a windshield and confuse Star Wars and Star Trek with each other.

Never heard of people who've properly tried watching the two and thinking that.

Considering that 'warbird' isn't a specific class, rather a general classification along the lines of 'battlecruiser', I'd not put any stock in the error of that.
Except that the warbird designation has been pretty consistently used to describe Romulan ships. The only other time it was used to describe Klingon ships was in ENT, and Brannon Braga later admitted that was a mistake on his part. It's the type of mistake I would expect from someone who might mix the Romulans and Klingons up or who thinks the viewscreen is a windshield.

And I'm not too bothered with it, warbirds fit for both cultures ship design styles, as much as Bird-of-Preys are. And who are these mysterious people who mix up Romulans and Klingons, and think the viewscreen is a windshield?

Hell, I thought you'd be making more a fuss about it being 47 ships* that kick the can, rather than what they called them.

*Yeah, I know there's the running joke of 47, but keep it reasonable Orci :p
Why would I care how many ships their uber-ship of death manages to blow up? What bothers me more is that Nero and his biker gang managed to somehow lose the ship to the Klingons for a couple of decades despite how invincible the ship apparently is,

The fact that it had a kamikaze Kelvin crash into it probably didn't help it stave off any attackers. Not see how the Narada was tumbling away with wreckage drifing off it as the shuttles ran for it before the title?

then managed to get it back because the Klingons
apparently kept it parked nearby

Haven't watched the deleted scenes, but from what I've heard of the scene, that aspect sounds far-fetched. Unless there's more to the deleted scenes than I've heard about that is.

and never bothered trying to tear the ship apart for its secrets.

Maybe the Klingons did get many secrets from the ship, why would they necessarily need to take it apart? It's not a military vessel with computer lockdowns, it's a civilian ship, so the specs and explanations of technology used would probably be available on the computers freely, or with little difficulty.
 
Why would I care how many ships their uber-ship of death manages to blow up? What bothers me more is that Nero and his biker gang managed to somehow lose the ship to the Klingons for a couple of decades despite how invincible the ship apparently is, then managed to get it back because the Klingons apparently kept it parked nearby and never bothered trying to tear the ship apart for its secrets.

I could be wrong about this, but no one in the movie ever tells anything about Nero and the Narada having been captured by the Klingons.
Apart from 'waiting' we don't know what Nero and co. did during those 25 years.
 
If there's little or no practical difference in strength for that size area between having a transparent aluminium (this isn't glass we're talking about)
Given pretty much everything I saw in the movie, I don't think we can even really say that since it was never specifically said in the movie or even as a behind the scenes statement.

and standard hull material, why not have the viewscreen a transparent material, if you can overlay any other information you might want besides what's directly ahead? Just saying 'it's the bridge' doesn't suffice, unless you can give good reasons for it.
Realistically (you know, that whole realism thing Abrams said he was going for), a window would be pretty useless on a space ship at anything other than very close range. A large monitor that can zoom way in on a ship that would still be in the weapons range of even modern weapons would be a much greater advantage than a window with a HUD, particularly if information that was actually important was displayed on it as well (to be fair something I have yet to see on Star Trek in any form). The way they basically did a HUD on a window was actually pretty distracting because you could always see through any image displayed on it, and the glare caused by the ample white lighting in the room on the curved surface of the glass just added to that.

I think ol' GR has a specific reason for bridge's being up top, but I can't remember what it is. I wouldn't be happy putting the bridge on the top of the ship either though.
It was to give audiences a visual reference and that was pretty much it. They've said this in pretty much every non-fiction publication there is, and they even admit that it's a pretty weak reason but that they just do it out of tradition now.

Never heard of people who've properly tried watching the two and thinking that.
I have, and I even had to put up with them in school.

And I'm not too bothered with it, warbirds fit for both cultures ship design styles, as much as Bird-of-Preys are. And who are these mysterious people who mix up Romulans and Klingons, and think the viewscreen is a windshield?
The same people who'd confuse Star Wars and Star Trek. basically people who have no real interest in either show but will go to watch it because it has spaceships blowing up.

The fact that it had a kamikaze Kelvin crash into it probably didn't help it stave off any attackers. Not see how the Narada was tumbling away with wreckage drifing off it as the shuttles ran for it before the title?
Yeah, I remember seeing that and wondering a number of things, including:
1) How were those ships able to be that close to a star without suffering from the radiation put off by it?
2) Why aren't the shuttles going to warp so they can get away from the attacking uber-ship now that the Kelvin isn't there to shoot down missiles?
3) Why isn't that uber-ship shooting anymore missiles at any of those shuttles?
4) How the hell did they fit that many shuttles into that ship?
5) Dear God, why did they have to make this movie like this?

Haven't watched the deleted scenes, but from what I've heard of the scene, that aspect sounds far-fetched. Unless there's more to the deleted scenes than I've heard about that is.
How else do you explain Nero and his biker gang being able to get the ship back then? This kind of reminds me of that episode on DS9 where Worf and Garak were captured and sent to a Jem Hadar prison, but for some inexplicable reason they kept the runabout close by. Or that episode of ENT where Archer and his crew do a jail break out of an internment camp, which has a hanger full of shuttles right next to it that all the prisoners use to escape.

Maybe the Klingons did get many secrets from the ship, why would they necessarily need to take it apart? It's not a military vessel with computer lockdowns, it's a civilian ship, so the specs and explanations of technology used would probably be available on the computers freely, or with little difficulty.
Reverse engineering is going to involve taking things apart so you can see just how they work and do things like material analysis. This is also something you'd want to do in a really secure place, so no one can just break in and steal the ship from you. And since you mentioned computer lock downs, there are a couple of issues with that.
1) Why wouldn't Nero add something like that?
2) The Klingons would have to understand how to even use the computers in order to get anything out of it, so even if there wasn't something as simple as a password protecting the computer that adds a complication to it.


I could be wrong about this, but no one in the movie ever tells anything about Nero and the Narada having been captured by the Klingons.
Aside from the deleted scenes we have that hint in the form of the transmission Uhura was talking about.

Apart from 'waiting' we don't know what Nero and co. did during those 25 years.
Which begs the question as to why they would bother doing that? As easily as they were able to defeat so many starships later on, why would they wait and not simply go on a rampage right then? What else are they going to do for 25 years? Buttsecks? :shifty:
 
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