The Official: What do Niners Feel About Enterprise

[Anwar]

So Anwar is now sparring with Niners over Enterprise? Classic.

I think Lambchop has something to say about this...

If you really have to go there, I was arguing this with other folk on general discussion WAY before the Niner thing heated up here.

I just think doing a prequel was a bad idea, especially at that time (2001) seeing how volatile the fandom/hatedom had become.

That, and Trek's past is too well-chronicled and in some cases too nonsensical to get a good show out of it (Atomic weapons anyone?).

 

[GhostFaceSaint]

Considering that I recorded the first two seasons of DS9 religiously and watched every episode until the very end, I can call myself an appreciative fan of SD9, so what do I think of Enterprise, I have posted my thoughts on other threads already and numerous times so you probably already know that I consider Enterprise to have been a really lousy show.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

I find it's only ardent fans of a particular show that say another show ripped them off. B5 initially had a bunch of criticism that it was ripping off Trek (every version) because it was a space show with a military command structure and latex humanoid aliens. Then B5 fans began claiming DS9 was ripping that show off, because they started doing interstellar wars and mystical mumbo-jumbo. And so it goes.

The only people who'd claim ENT was ripping off B5 would be ardent B5 fans, (I'm sure they'd find something to nitpick; such folks always do) but chances are they wouldn't even be watching ENT anyway so it's a moot point.

Well, for what it's worth, I am a passionate Babylon 5 fan (DS9 and B5 are my two favorite shows EVER....and it's almost too close to call which one I prefer...although most of the time I'd say DS9).

And I in no way claim that ENT ripped off B5. I think it ripped off the other Trek shows because they were fresh out of new ideas for Trek by season 6 of VOY....before they even started ENT.....

.....but I never would make the claim that ENT ripped off B5.

In fact, this thread is the first time I have ever even read that accusation.

I mean, if ENT ripped off B5...they did a damn piss-poor job of it. Because B5 is a kick-ass good show...and ENT sucked so hard, you can STILL hear the echoes of it sucking, 4 years later.

 

[GhostFaceSaint]

I mean, if ENT ripped off B5...they did a damn piss-poor job of it. Because B5 is a kick-ass good show...and ENT sucked so hard, you can STILL hear the echoes of it sucking, 4 years later.

So that explains that irritating sound I've been hearing for the last few years now!

 

[Anwar]

I'm not saying it DID (although there were still similarities), but in doing Birth of the Federation they WOULD be doing that. Meaning the show was no-win regardless of what they did.

 

[Sykonee]

And I in no way claim that ENT ripped off B5. I think it ripped off the other Trek shows because they were fresh out of new ideas for Trek by season 6 of VOY....before they even started ENT.....

.....but I never would make the claim that ENT ripped off B5.

In fact, this thread is the first time I have ever even read that accusation.

And no one is claiming that. What Anwar's saying, though, is that if ENT did a BoF story-arc, then people would be claiming ENT ripped off B5.

Which is balderdash, baloney, and bunk. Unless anyone can bring in a bunch of Fivers to verify this would be true.

Edit: Haha! Outposted by the man himself.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

And I in no way claim that ENT ripped off B5. I think it ripped off the other Trek shows because they were fresh out of new ideas for Trek by season 6 of VOY....before they even started ENT.....

.....but I never would make the claim that ENT ripped off B5.

In fact, this thread is the first time I have ever even read that accusation.

And no one is claiming that. What Anwar's saying, though, is that if ENT did a BoF story-arc, then people would be claiming ENT ripped off B5.

So what you are telling me is that you guys have spent about 5 pages arguing over Anwar's UNSUPPORTABLE THEORY (unless he has the ability to visit an alternative timeline to our own, where the ENT writers actually did a BoF story) as to what Babylon 5 fans MIGHT POSSIBLY have claimed IF ENT had ever done a BoF story, which they never did?

I'm sorry......but



(oh....my ribs! My ribs!!!)

edit: By all means, however, carry on. This is PURE ENTERTAINMENT.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

And just to emphasize the point here....



This conversation is gonna make my week. Yes-siree!

 

[PKTrekGirl]

I mean, if ENT ripped off B5...they did a damn piss-poor job of it. Because B5 is a kick-ass good show...and ENT sucked so hard, you can STILL hear the echoes of it sucking, 4 years later.

So that explains that irritating sound I've been hearing for the last few years now!

Yes. That would be it. Although you might also be hearing the sound of Nemesis sucking. Nemesis is like the Black Hole of Star Trek. It sucked so hard, it came damn close to sucking all of Trek into the oblivion of another dimension.

 

[Kegg]

Seeing how the fandom was already ready to boycott ENT before anything was known about it in the least, I don't see how this theory is all that outlandish. By the time ENT came around the fandom had become a hatedom, for the dumbest reasons.

I was around at the time, and yes ENT recieved buckets of scorn, and part of me misses that because the ENT forum tends to be a lot more pro-ENT these days... which is because, again, the people who like something are the ones who still care about it in the long run. Anti-ENT fans only cared about ENT when it was the new Star Trek, they've shifted their attentions, positive or negative, to the Abrams film.

But Niners embraced nuBSG because it was the sort of show they liked. If ENT 'ripped off' B5 and did so in a way they didn't like, they'd criticize it.

This is the double standard of relevance. It may be Niners may bash something they dislike by accusing it of things that could be fairly levelled at something they like - but you're assuming they'd automatically dislike it, which seems untenable. I think it'd be fair to say there are more than a few Niners who enjoyed ENT's fourth season, for instance, and a fifth would probably have been much like the fourth in tone and style.

 

[Amaris]

Seeing how the fandom was already ready to boycott ENT before anything was known about it in the least, I don't see how this theory is all that outlandish. By the time ENT came around the fandom had become a hatedom, for the dumbest reasons.

I was around at the time, and yes ENT recieved buckets of scorn, and part of me misses that because the ENT forum tends to be a lot more pro-ENT these days... which is because, again, the people who like something are the ones who still care about it in the long run. Anti-ENT fans only cared about ENT when it was the new Star Trek, they've shifted their attentions, positive or negative, to the Abrams film.

But Niners embraced nuBSG because it was the sort of show they liked. If ENT 'ripped off' B5 and did so in a way they didn't like, they'd criticize it.

This is the double standard of relevance. It may be Niners may bash something they dislike by accusing it of things that could be fairly levelled at something they like - but you're assuming they'd automatically dislike it, which seems untenable. I think it'd be fair to say there are more than a few Niners who enjoyed ENT's fourth season, for instance, and a fifth would probably have been much like the fourth in tone and style.

Yep. Hardcore Niner here, and I find the 4th season (and quite a bit of the 3rd) of ENT to be terrific. I wanted to see it have a 5th season just so I could see how much better it could become.

J.

 

[Anwar]

But Niners embraced nuBSG because it was the sort of show they liked. If ENT 'ripped off' B5 and did so in a way they didn't like, they'd criticize it.

And I'm saying that by that point in the Hatedom there was nothing the staff could've done to get them to like whatever they'd have done when they started doing ENT: Make it one big serial story about the Birth of the Federation, they'd just suffer nothing but criticism about the comparisons to B5. Don't do the BoF thing and it gets the utter loathing it got anyways. And there are folks who hated the 4th season too.

Screwed either way.

 

[Praxius]

Seasons 1-2 were OK
A few missed opportunities but overall it was OK

S3-Xinidi Arc was very good b/c it reminded me (in a few ways) of DS9, just didn't have the intense character dev.

S4-Really good. Tying up some lose ends w/TOS. Still hate how they handled the Romulans but....

All in all, I give it a B-

I'm still running through the first season of Enterprise now, so I can't give a complete response of the series overall just yet.

A few things I will say that I don't quite like are:

- The Character design of the Nausicaans.

Take a look at the TNG/DS9 Nausicaans:

Now the Enterprise Nausicaans:

Hard to find decent pictures of this alien species online, but for those who remember, in TNG/DS9, the Nausicaans were big, mean, creepy looking, talked real slow yet direct..... and then in Enterprise, they reminded me of some half-arsed alien from some lower-ended sci-fi show.

The other thing that bugs me is Commander Charlie "Trip" Tucker.... I think with that character along with Archer, the whole feel of the show has this gun-ho, giv'r hell, whatever we do is right, A'merican attitude.

I don't mean that as an insult, as it's good from time to time, but for me, coming from another country, like many other ST fans, it's a little over powering in the show and thus, a bit difficult to relate to at times since it seems most of the Humans on the ship seem to come from the US. I mean, sure it's supposed to be closer to today's way of life and todays way of thinking...... but they sure do make a lot of mistakes and decisions that even by todays standards (a little over 100 or so years earlier from the show) that they wouldn't be wise decisions and you know they're asking for trouble. One would think that if humanity really got all unified and peaceful, there'd be a bit more diversity on the Enterprise.

Other then that, it's not too bad of a series.... just a couple of urks so far.

 

[TheGodBen]

I'm saying that if they had done what so many of the detractors say, make the entire series the birth of the Federation (one giant arc from first episode of the first season to the series finale) all that would've happened was a giant bashfest where ENT has to take nothing but criticism for being a B5 knock-off (since the story of the Interstellar Alliance is similar to BoF) no matter how well-written or acted it was.

But that's exactly what they started to do in season 4, a mysterious enemy emerged and and four rival species pulled together in a united coalition to fight them off. And it was clear to everyone who knows Trek history that that story was going to have to develop in the later seasons into the Romulan war and the BotF. And yet I have never seen anyone criticise that fourth season for being a B5 knock-off.

Maybe we should bring in some Fivers to ask them if they would.

Oh not those Fivers, we don't want those guys coming around here! They're filled with hate and relentlessly attack DS9 because of their double standard. I wish that there was a B5 forum here so that I could hang out in there and tell those guys what I think of them!

 

[Pemmer Harge]

I'm confused. So, Enterprise didn't do so well (although, really, 98 episodes ain't bad, Babylon 5 has what, 110?) because it was just a bad idea, but even if it hadn't been a bad idea it would have failed because loads of people just want to hate any new Trek show?

 

[happydave]

I think with that character along with Archer, the whole feel of the show has this gun-ho, giv'r hell, whatever we do is right, A'merican attitude.

I don't mean that as an insult, as it's good from time to time, but for me, coming from another country, like many other ST fans, it's a little over powering in the show and thus, a bit difficult to relate to at times since it seems most of the Humans on the ship seem to come from the US. I mean, sure it's supposed to be closer to today's way of life and todays way of thinking...... but they sure do make a lot of mistakes and decisions that even by todays standards (a little over 100 or so years earlier from the show) that they wouldn't be wise decisions and you know they're asking for trouble. One would think that if humanity really got all unified and peaceful, there'd be a bit more diversity on the Enterprise.

Other then that, it's not too bad of a series.... just a couple of urks so far.

Unfortunately that 'American Attitude' can be said for pretty much all Trek series. I think it's part of the reason why Trek doesn't perform as well out of the US as it does inside it. Sure it has a lot to do with the fact the show IS American but there's a lot of times (throughout all series) where you get the feeling of the American Style of 'We're coming in to save the day'.

I guess in a lot of ways the Federation does act like 'Team America' (from the movie) in that they know best. From the perceived smugness to the TNG crew. The gung-ho attitude from TOS & ENT.

The DS9 is the most ethnically diverse (I mean that from the Actors, not the alien races).

 

[Anwar]

I'm confused. So, Enterprise didn't do so well (although, really, 98 episodes ain't bad, Babylon 5 has what, 110?) because it was just a bad idea, but even if it hadn't been a bad idea it would have failed because loads of people just want to hate any new Trek show?

Well, yes. They were screwed either way: Either they don't do BoF and get criticized for that, or they do it from day one and get criticized for doing it. There was no love in anyone's heart for that show and they wanted it to fail.

It didn't help matters that the Fandom had become a Hatedom out to get the show by the time ENT started.

 

[Count Zero]

ENT Season 4 is one of my favourite Star Trek seasons. The triple episode style worked incredibly well in my opinion and made it almost feel like you had a few movies in the series as well as a great bottle episode.

While I sometimes give season 3 the edge over season 4 I agree with you concerning the three-parters. They added a lot of scope and texture to the universe and allowed for nice closures.

Seeing how the fandom was already ready to boycott ENT before anything was known about it in the least, I don't see how this theory is all that outlandish. By the time ENT came around the fandom had become a hatedom, for the dumbest reasons.

I was around at the time, and yes ENT recieved buckets of scorn, and part of me misses that because the ENT forum tends to be a lot more pro-ENT these days... which is because, again, the people who like something are the ones who still care about it in the long run.

Well, I'm happy the days of the relentless ENT-bashing in the ENT forum are long gone. The things that went on there when the show was still on kept me from posting on this board for a long time.

The other thing that bugs me is Commander Charlie "Trip" Tucker.... I think with that character along with Archer, the whole feel of the show has this gun-ho, giv'r hell, whatever we do is right, American attitude.

Yeah, it's pretty US-centric. Just wait till Trip says that it wasn't a 'Serbocroatian' who invented warp drive...
I know I was annoyed about the total ommission of Russian achievements in space flight in the opening credits at first. I guess I got used to it.

I mean, sure it's supposed to be closer to today's way of life and todays way of thinking...... but they sure do make a lot of mistakes and decisions that even by todays standards (a little over 100 or so years earlier from the show) that they wouldn't be wise decisions and you know they're asking for trouble.

That's true as well, but you have to stay consistent with TOS to some extent. The world has changed since the 60, so if TOS was made today, Kirk would behave quite differently than he did. If the ENT crew's behaviour was considerably more sophisticated and cautious, it would be quite unplausible how Kirk behaves 100 years later.
Just blame it on World War III ...


ETA: Seeing Anwar's latest comment, I'd like to add that there are plenty of people who love Enterprise, me for example. Some more of them can be found in the ENT forum right on this board.

 

[Sykonee]

ETA: Seeing Anwar's latest comment, I'd like to add that there are plenty of people who love Enterprise, me for example. Some more of them can be found in the ENT forum right on this board.

You're just a hater in denial then.

 

[Disillusioned]

The problems I had with ENT had to do mainly with, well, not being all that good I guess. Characters matter a lot to me, and here the captain really didn't come off all that well, and the other characters were often made to look bad to make the captain look better, which made me dislike him even more. The show also had a really great concept, and it could have been so much more than what it turned out to be. The Temporal Cold War was also one of the worst decisions they ever made. Then there are the continuity issues, but that's really the least of the show's problems. So it certainly wasn't simply a matter of being new for me.