Babylon 5 - I'm finally going to do it

[Forbin]

I am! These kinds of threads are fascinating to follow, for us "First Ones".

Do I qualify as a "First One" even though I didn't see "The Gathering" when it first aired? I did see almost all of the episodes on their first airing. In fact, "Comes the Inquisitor" may be the only one I missed repeatedly and didn't see until it was on TNT.

Hoping I qualify...

Jan

I like to think I go even farther back than The Gathering. I had an Amiga computer back when B5 was starting development, and the Amiga magazine would occasionally show off renders of the station in Video Toaster ads and articles. I wondered what this cool-looking thing was, and tried to follow the development. I was real excited when I finally saw it was going to be featured in a TV movie, and maybe a series.

 

[tomalak301]

I rewatched And Now for A Word last night, and I still love the style of the news report this episode had. It's nice getting some much needed back story this way, and I would actually use this episode to introduce someone new to the series.

Anyway, have been rewatching other season 2 episodes and I really am starting to wonder, which season I like better, Season 2 or 4. I know I ranked 2 before 4, but Season 4 was just riviting stuff. Season 2 though, had things that kept building and building. Even those small things (Like Clark's attitudes such as what he did with the guy who shot Garibaldi in the back and heck, I was thinking Bearau 13 pretty much turned into Nightwatch and the ministry of peace) are starting to add so much to the overall story. However, I had some problems getting through Disc 2. Not sure why, since 3 of those four episodes are alright (The Long Dark, lost something on the second viewing). It will be interesting when I get around to rewatching Season 4. Of course now I'm at the point in the season where the series could do no wrong. From In the Shadows... to pretty much the end of the season, the show got really really good. So looking forward to seeing Twilight again.

 

[Mr Light]

There were definitely some bad episodes in Season Two, but it was also when the series got consistently entertaining and everything fell into place with the production values. Season Four (post Into the Fire) had some classic episodes, but a lot of it was just a little too small and boring (408 to 415). With the First Ones gone, so was the magic.

 

[tomalak301]

Man did season 2 of B5 end strong. I saw the final four episodes tonight, and the weakest of the bunch, Devided Loyalties, was still a decent episode. It just can't compete with what I consider B5's Best episode in Long Twilight Struggle (I know I ranked it second behind Severed Dreams but I'll get to discussing it more) but also some fine material with Comes the Inquisitor and one hell of a finale.

As for Long Twilight Struggle, you know what, I'm changing my mind. This episode was Babylon 5's best episode ever. Yeah you had Severed Dreams and that ride, but there was just so much more packed into this one in terms of the rollar coaster ride of emotion than in SD. I think SD benefits from a very nice set up from the previous two episodes, and the stuff like the Martial Law and Night Watch, but LTS takes everything we saw from the season and wraps it up into one big giant pay off that I find lacking in so many other shows. Every second of this episode was riveting, from G'Kar wishing his relative well, to the visit on Epsilon 3 and the formation of the new allience (Which unfortunately got lost later on) and then I've already mentioned how much I love the final 20 minutes from the bombing of Narn, to the Council Chamber, and then just for good measure, adding in the Rangers and a sign that yes, Hope is still there in this great time of darkness. Oh, and it also had a signature Sheridan Speech. Man B5 had so many awesome episodes, but this one was just utterly EPIC on so many levels. It might just be the best B5, as a single episode, ever got.

As for the final two, I got the Jack the Ripper reference this time. Last time I had to think about some more, but it was a nice touch. As for Fall of Night, Great episode, but I loved how it ended with not only revealing Kosh, but Ivanova's narration.

Looking forward to revisiting the series' best season now.

 

[Neroon]

There were definitely some bad episodes in Season Two, but it was also when the series got consistently entertaining and everything fell into place with the production values. Season Four (post Into the Fire) had some classic episodes, but a lot of it was just a little too small and boring (408 to 415). With the First Ones gone, so was the magic.

Sheridan: "It feels like the magic is gone."
Delenn: "No, not gone. Now we make our own magic. Now we create our own legends. Now we build the future. Now we stop ..."
Sheridan: "... being afraid of shadows"

For me, the magic never left; it changed focus, in a way becoming more personal. It shifted from battling with ancient super powerful races to battling with an enemy no less powerful - ourselves and the problems we cause each other. There certainly are things we like about each style of story, but I tended to enjoy both, just for different reasons.

 

[Jan]

For me, the magic never left; it changed focus, in a way becoming more personal. It shifted from battling with ancient super powerful races to battling with an enemy no less powerful - ourselves and the problems we cause each other. There certainly are things we like about each style of story, but I tended to enjoy both, just for different reasons.

The change in focus is a good point. I never saw the series as being about any one thing, rather it was about a set of people who did extraordinary things in extraordinary times. I always liked the fact that it's a five year slice of history. Characters and situations would come to our attention or fade back as other factors came to the fore, just like real life.

Jan

 

[Lindley]

The only problem with the Earth Civil War, in my view, was that Clarke never had a chance. Earth destroyers were totally outclassed by Whitestars. They had to trot out the Omega Xes to even threaten Sheridan's forces, and those were defeated as well.

 

[Mr Light]

Exactly. The threat was gone. I'd rather having them fighting invincible alien gods than people with antiquated technology incapable of actually harming them. I know it's a more personal struggle, but I prefer my conflict to be external rather than internal.

 

[Neroon]

That's the beauty of the B5 story. You get both types of struggle, both internal and external, to satiate both sides. While your point Lindley is a very good one, that's part of why my focus wasn't on who was going to win that struggle, so much as how the good guys would achieve it ... and at what price they'd have to pay.

 

[JoeD80]

antiquated technology incapable of actually harming them.

Yeah incapable; not like Ivanova almost died or anything. (I suppose that was coincidence from flying debris, but it still put a good dent in that White Star)

 

[Mr Light]

They had one shot with their Shadowy Destroyers and took a handful of White Stars out, but that's it. The normal Destroyers couldn't destroy White Stars only temporarily stun them; the only on-screen loss of a WS to a Destroyer in "No Surrender" was only because the WS was screaming straight towards it when it was temporarily stunned and it kamikazed right into it.

 

[Neroon]

But that wasn't really the force of the Earth Alliance civil war. The ships were really secondary, regardless of the disparity in technology. The stuff of the message here lies in the fact that Earth is turning in on itself. That soldiers have to fight their fellow soldiers. That Sheridan has to lead a fight against his own government and people he knew and trained with. And lead others to do the same.

 

[Reverend]

Yeah, it was a civil war not a war of conquest. Yes, with the Whitestars, Sheridan could have just rolled right over most of the Earth fleet however that'd undermine the whole POINT of the conflict. He'd prove Clark right by showing the "folks back home" that he was just an alien puppet out to kill all humans.

As for the age old Omegas vs. White star debate, keep in mind that a Whitestar's strength is in it's speed and manoeuvrability. The Omega's weaponry is far from weak and ineffective, if they land a direct hit on a White star it'll know it's been hit. The trick is in getting that opportunity. Plus of course there's only about 100 - 150 Whitestars with no hope of getting a replacement and they can't just move the whole fleet from one target to another hoping to overwhelm every force they encounter. Earthforce will quickly catch on and just throw everything at one target (which is what they tried to do at Mars) and bank on superior numbers being able to negate any technological advantage.

 

[tomalak301]

I just watching Passing through Gethsemane again (I think I liked this episode more this time than when I originally reviewed it) and I had a question. Was there a bit of a cop out by forcing the issue of Edward remembering his past life? I mean I wonder how much more powerful this episode would have been had the mind wipe had not worked. I guess we're supposed to assume that it's a very delicate procedure that works 100% of the time, but I'm reminded of TNG's Who Watches the Watchers in that they tried a variation of mind wipe and it didn't work. I wonder if this episode would have been much better had those hints just cropped up because the wipe had wore off or something? Also, I think one of my original complaints about this one was the literal way the symbols (Gethsemane for instance) was being used and how it felt like they were knocking our heads with it. I just wonder if the episode would have been much better had he figured everything out on his own.

 

[Reverend]

The problem with that idea would have been that the episode would have been about a monk turning into a serial killer and they then have to hunt him down and probably kill him. That's because if the mind wipe didn't work then Charles Dexter is still in there and loosing the new personality would just bring him back.

On top of that, Brother Edward never fully remembered his past life, he didn't see Dexter's childhood, parents, and whatever molded him into a killer, it was just fragments, echoes of memory from a person who wasn't there anymore, left lingering in the odd redundant synapse. This was just enough for him to go looking for the truth and the episode then becomes about how he chooses to deal with that information.

While he's waiting for the relatives of Dexter's victims to find him, that's still Edward's personality. Dexter is dead; A mindwipe is supposed to be permanent and complete - it rips out all traces of personality leaving a blank canvas on which to imprint a new personality. From an arc point of view I suppose it could have been meant to establish what a death of personality is, that it's as real and as irreversible as getting your head cut off (pike mounting optional) so later on we know Anna Sheridan is dead, even though her body is standing right there and there was no bringing her back.
It might also at one point have meant to tie in with Talia's DoP, though in that case I gather she was supposed to come back, but only because Kosh had a back-up of her handy. Perhaps in the long run it was better that Talia stayed gone because I can imagine the fans crying cop-out if Talia was saved while Anna was left to burn (plot logic aside.)

 

[Jan]

I agree with Reverend that if the story was about the wipe not working (or wearing off), it would have been a completely different story. Part of what's powerful about this episode is that the good and devout Brother Edward discovers that he not only could be evil, as everybody can, but that he had been evil. And because of the mindwipe, he couldn't even remember what circumstances might have contributed to creating the monster he'd been.

As for the waiting for his fate a la Jesus at Gethsemane, I remember back when we studied that part in (Catholic) school, there wasn't a single kid in the class who didn't think that if they'd been Jesus, they'd've been running like heck and make the soldiers work to capture them. In this episode we're shown why one man, at least would find it necessary to await the gruesome fate he knew was going to come. He felt the need to be punished with physical suffering *and* his guilt made him feel that allowing the revenge of the victim's relatives was the right thing to do to atone for what his former self had done.

I'm *so* glad we didn't lose this episode due to the story idea posted by a fan. Actually, I think it may have become a stronger story for having had to delay the writing since IIRC originally it was supposed to be a B story.

Jan

 

[Forbin]

Another point of that ep, I think, was a "vengeance can backfire" message. By getting his revenge on Brother Edward, the victim set himself up for good ol' Rod Serling ironic fall.

 

[Crusher Disciple]

Am I the only one who liked season 1 the most?

 

[Jan]

Am I the only one who liked season 1 the most?

I think I like all of the seasons equally, if for different reasons. I definitely think that B5 wouldn't have been nearly as good without the universe building that we got in season one. For all that later seasons are exciting and a great payoff, without the set-up in season one we wouldn't have cared nearly as much.

Jan

 

[Kegg]

Am I the only one who liked season 1 the most?

If it helps, I did like O'Hare more than Boxleitner, but I wasn't too keen on either.