Worst. Episode. Ever. Poll.

[FalTorPan]

And to be fair to Snodgrass, the analogy to abortion was my suggestion here, I don't know if that's the allegory she actually had in mind.

She did say as much.

"I got enormous flack from the right to life coalition because they destroyed the clones. They thought I was condoning abortion. In fact, I did put a line in Riker's mouth that was very pro-choice and the right to life coalition went crazy. He says I told you that you can't clone me and you did it against my will, and I have the right to have control over my own body. That's my feeling and it was soapbox, and it was one I got to get on. I was supported by Maurice all the way."

Posted on Memory Alpha, attributed to Captain's Logs: The Unauthorized Complete Trek Voyages.

As even she observes there, the line Riker says isn't that subtle and is intended to make the abortion analogy explicit.

Unfortunately the situation in the episode is nothing like abortion. The clones' involvement with our heroes ended with the cell extraction.

The situation in this episode is somewhat more similar to a scenario in which a person were to lose one of his or her kidneys involuntarily in order to save a person dying from kidney failure. Does the person whose kidney is removed have the right to kill the person who recieved the kidney?

Even that example doesn't work well, because the involuntary donor lost an entire kidney. In the TNG story, the characters only lose a tiny number of easily replaced cells.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

I stopped reading at "Shut up Wesley, DIE DIE DIE"!

 

[sbk1234]

With a title like "Manhunter," it should have been awesome. Instead, it could be simply summed up with the four-word synopsis: Mrs. Troi is horny.

 

[Myasishchev]

I've got a sort of funny attitude towars Snodgrass, considering she wrote my most hated episode of Trek and my favourite episode of TNG ("The Measure of a Man", which, appropriately enough, explores the ethical quandry of its scenario a mite better), but one digresses.

Measure of a Man is one of the best TNG episodes, and best episodes of Trek overall. It's the one that actually changed my mind about Data, because up until then I essentially had the same attitude toward him as Pulaski did.

As for Up the Long Ladder, I'd say that the fact that we're still discussing the moral quandry she posed in that episode, that while it's not great Trek, it's far superior to the idiotic moral quandries posed in S1 episodes like Justice. And to be fair to Snodgrass, the analogy to abortion was my suggestion here, I don't know if that's the allegory she actually had in mind. In my mind privacy rights, and individual uniqueness are tied together (the latter being what Riker based his objections to when he explained terminating the clone after the fact). Whereas, I don't know if that same connection is there for everyone.

So, what you're saying is, Riker should've remembered this in "Second Chances" and blasted Tom into charged particles.

Or maybe by this time he was ready, emotionally and financially, to finally have a clone.

 

[childofdarkness]

Wow. This is hard. So many from which to choose. Just randomly starting in season one, Code of Honor and Angel One come to mind. And let's not forget the episode wherein the hapless Tasha dies in an overly animate oil slick. Nor the ones in which Beverly falls in love and/or lust with: 1)a giant slug, and 2)an antique lamp. Evidently, TPTB had great trouble writing female-centered episodes.

 

[DevilEyes]

So, what you're saying is, Riker should've remembered this in "Second Chances" and blasted Tom into charged particles.

Or maybe Tom could have blasted Will into charged particles. He had as much right to (or more - he was the one that got the short end of the stick). In a way, that would have been poetic justice.

 

[Kegg]

So, what you're saying is, Riker should've remembered this in "Second Chances" and blasted Tom into charged particles.

Or maybe Tom could have blasted Will into charged particles. He had as much right to (or more - he was the one that got the short end of the stick). In a way, that would have been poetic justice.

No no no no. He's the clone, so Will killing Tom is pro-choice, but Tom killing Will is murder. Or whatever the legal word is for being killed by a being with no rights.

Seriously though, if the clones in "Up the Long Ladder" are the equivalent to abortion, "Second Chances" is the equivalent to discovering you're the father of a kid you'd never heard about who's now eight years old... or something. Anyway he's gained consciousness so I suppose it's no longer okay to kill him.

Unless you're Tuvix.

Unfortunately the situation in the episode is nothing like abortion.

Yup, as has been observed.

 

[DevilEyes]

So, what you're saying is, Riker should've remembered this in "Second Chances" and blasted Tom into charged particles.

Or maybe Tom could have blasted Will into charged particles. He had as much right to (or more - he was the one that got the short end of the stick). In a way, that would have been poetic justice.

No no no no. He's the clone, so Will killing Tom is pro-choice, but Tom killing Will is murder. Or whatever the legal word is for being killed by a being with no rights.

Um... no, Tom is not a clone. As Beverly pointed out, Tom is as much William T. Riker as Will is.

Seriously though, if the clones in "Up the Long Ladder" are the equivalent to abortion, "Second Chances" is the equivalent to discovering you're the father of a kid you'd never heard about who's now eight years old... or something. Anyway he's gained consciousness so I suppose it's no longer okay to kill him.

You need to watch the episode again. "Second Chances" can be only be the equivalent of discovering you have a twin brother (well, not exactly, since twin brother was never the same person as you in the first place) and for both of them. They both discovered that the other one existed and that they were no longer unique. And Tom was no more 8 years old than Will was. They were both the same age. The only difference was that the last 8 years of Tom's life were very different - and infinitely suckier than Will's.

 

[Kegg]

Um... no, Tom is not a clone. As Beverly pointed out, Tom is as much William T. Riker as Will is.

Ah. I could have sworn he was a transporter duplicate.

You need to watch the episode again.

Evidently. I was never too big a fan of this episode (loved "Defiant", go figure.) The point about consciousness stands, though - if if Tom were a clone it'd be more like killing a baby than a late-term abortion.

 

[The Boy Who Cried Worf]

Um... no, Tom is not a clone. As Beverly pointed out, Tom is as much William T. Riker as Will is.

Ah. I could have sworn he was a transporter duplicate.

[QUOTE
You need to watch the episode again.

Evidently. I was never too big a fan of this episode (loved "Defiant", go figure.) The point about consciousness stands, though - if if Tom were a clone it'd be more like killing a baby than a late-term abortion.[/QUOTE]


It would probably be pointless to go back and watch the episode for the explanation because it was techno-babble anyway, but Geordi did say that both Tom and Will were the "real" ones because they were both made from the same pattern not one from the other.

 

[DevilEyes]

Um... no, Tom is not a clone. As Beverly pointed out, Tom is as much William T. Riker as Will is.

Ah. I could have sworn he was a transporter duplicate.

Yes. And so is Will. What difference is there?

You don't need to pay much attention to the technobabble to get it. The whole technobabble explanation is not important, it is all about the question of identity. Riker gets doubled into two because the transporter technology is inherently a pretty screwed up thing, when you think about it, which we knew anyway. It basically takes you apart on the molecular level and then puts you back, right? So if you're going to look at Tom as a "duplicate", then you must consider Will a "duplicate" as well. Not just that - you'd have to consider Riker that comes out of the transporter every time "duplicate" in relation to the one who entered the transporter. Doesn't make any sense, does it?

Either they are both duplicates and neither is the original, or they are both the original Riker. That's what it's all about. They are not twins - they are the same person... or they used to be. But the only difference between them is 8 years of completely difference experiences.

 

[Kegg]

Um... no, Tom is not a clone. As Beverly pointed out, Tom is as much William T. Riker as Will is.

Ah. I could have sworn he was a transporter duplicate.

Yes. And so is Will. What difference is there?

Uh, that just one (Tom) was the transporter duplicate. That would be the difference.

 

[DevilEyes]

Ah. I could have sworn he was a transporter duplicate.

Yes. And so is Will. What difference is there?

Uh, that just one (Tom) was the transporter duplicate. That would be the difference.

But it's not, since it is not true.

 

[Kegg]

Yes. And so is Will. What difference is there?

Uh, that just one (Tom) was the transporter duplicate. That would be the difference.

But it's not, since it is not true.

True. But I think it was pretty clear what I thought to be the case: One was a transporter duplicate and one was the real deal, so your question assumes you weren't aware of the difference between my misrembered version and the episode.

 

[SRFX]

Code of Honor - it's just plain racist! That makes it deplorable, as opposed to just bad.

Sub Rosa and Justice would be next in line.

 

[QuasarVM]

God...either Ethics or Rascals...

The problem with TNG is there is just too much shite to wade through to find "the worst" episode. There's a lot of mediocrity in the last three seasons.

There's no horrible in a "And The Children Shall Lead" kind of way bad episode...when TNG is bad it's usually just excruciatingly boring.

I can't hate something that is boring. I just avoid it. And trust me, there are a LOT of TNG episodes that I have not seen since original broadcast. Just had no desire to see some of them again...

You see, TOS -- even at it's worst is STILL watchable and entertaining. That can't be said of "Modern Trek"...at least I can't say it. Maybe you disagree, no?

 

[childofdarkness]

I do agree. While watching some of the bad TOS episodes, including The Children Shall Lead, is kind of a guilty pleasure, watching most of the bad TNG is just not possible. Because they are simply boring. There are some, like Justice and the one in which Tasha got swallowed up by an oil slick, that I can watch, simply because they are entertaining in a campy way.

 

[Klaitu]

The two stupidest TNG episodes are:

1. The one where Dr. Crusher falls in love with a vampire alien living in a candle.

2. The one where Troi falls in love with a guy and turns old by making his rocks kiss.

 

[where'sSaavik?]

Who Watches The Watchers, aka (Voice of Dexter from Dexter's Lab) Religion is sooo stoooooooopid!

Uh...that is one of the best episodes. Season three is a gold mine, I wouldn't normally expect to see any of its episodes on a worst list of any type.

Season 3 is when TNG really started coming into its own, but Who Watches the Watchers isn't one of the highlights. The best summary of the episode is in fact "Religion = Stupid" While I didn't always agree with what DS9 had to say about religion, at least it tried to talk about it intelligently. The heavy-handedness of WWTW is so disproportionate, it had to have been influenced directly by Roddenberry's Exec Producing.

Definitely not a favorite, but the performances by the Mentoken guest actors, who did very well with bad material, saves this from the worst ever bin.

As for Up the Long Ladder, I'd say that the fact that we're still discussing the moral quandry she posed in that episode, that while it's not great Trek, it's far superior to the idiotic moral quandries posed in S1 episodes like Justice.

1. We're still discussing it because we're Star Trek fans.

True dat.

2. We still discuss the moral quandry of "Justice", also. Even the most poorly constructed moral dilemmas in Star Trek get hashed about by us, sometimes because they're not that well concieved.

I don't know that we really discuss the moral quandry of Justice beyond us all agreeing that the quandry is stupid. Whereas, with UTLL, we can see it dramatizing an interesting concept. Not as well as Measure of a Man or Ethics, but better than Justice.

Also, personally, I don't think "Justice" is a racist pile of crap, so it's a cut above in my book.

Calling charactures of the Irish "racist" is a little bit of a stretch. There's an inherent power differential when you're talking about racism, and the Irish in America have come to a point where there's no longer such a power differential with other whites that you could call charactures of them racist. Not when there are that many Irish fans of Notre Dame.

Now, if the characture had been of Native Americans, or Gypsies, or something like that, then I could go along with calling it "racist." I prefer to reserve that word for things that are uglier than what was going on in UTLL.

She did say as much.

"I got enormous flack from the right to life coalition because they destroyed the clones. They thought I was condoning abortion. In fact, I did put a line in Riker's mouth that was very pro-choice and the right to life coalition went crazy. He says I told you that you can't clone me and you did it against my will, and I have the right to have control over my own body. That's my feeling and it was soapbox, and it was one I got to get on. I was supported by Maurice all the way."

Posted on Memory Alpha, attributed to Captain's Logs: The Unauthorized Complete Trek Voyages.

As even she observes there, the line Riker says isn't that subtle and is intended to make the abortion analogy explicit.

Hey, I never knew that. Cool quote. Thanks.

 

[Klaitu]

I think I'll inappropriately and uncouthly jump in on the conversation already in progress!

Who Watches the Watchers isn't one of the highlights. The best summary of the episode is in fact "Religion = Stupid"

As someone who could possibly be considered "spiritual" I didn't find any particularly offensive anti-religious rhetoric in the episode.

The issue at stake was that the Mintakans' course of society would be dramatically affected by the situation. The Mintakans had already rejected those beliefs, and Picard was trying to make sure that their interference didn't drive the Mintakans back to them.

I suppose if someone really wanted to be offended by it, they could find cause here, but I never did.

Actually, "Who Watches" is one of my favorite Trek episodes.. again, this coming from someone who has spiritual beliefs.

Up the Long Ladder, I'd say that the fact that we're still discussing the moral quandry she posed in that episode

Until this thread, I was oblivious to any moral quandry that may or may not be in the episode. My most vivid memory of this episode is the Bringloidi foot washing scene.

Again speaking as someone who has spiritual beliefs (ones that oppose abortion) I also did not pick up on any of that in the episode, even if it was intended by Snodgrass. Clones are not children, and I am not offended by undeveloped clones being phasered.

I wouldnt say that "Up the Long Ladder" was particularly racist either, I found the Brindloidi to be so ridiculous as to be inoffensive.. in the same way that Finnegan was ridiculous in TOS. Was Chekov offensive as an unconvincing Russian guy who claimed that Russia invented everything? I didn't think so.

superior to the idiotic moral quandries posed in S1 episodes like Justice

I'm not sure I would even consider this much of a quandry. The strength in that episode lays in how Picard can get Wesley out of this ridiculous situation without being exploded by the Edo protector. It's more about diplomacy, and listening to people's viewpoints even when they are ridiculous.

"When the Bough Breaks" has a similar ridiculous sort of premise. As if Kidnapping can ever be moral. It's more about the use of passive resistance than it is about the ethical quandry of kidnapping people because you can't have children.

Not as well as Measure of a Man or Ethics, but better than Justice.

I agree that Measure and Ethics are both superior to Justice, simply on grounds of quality.

I don't think "Justice" is a racist pile of crap

I think that "racist" is thrown around a lot to the point where everyone is oversensitive about racism.

Don't get me wrong, true racism is horrible and shouldn't be tolerated, but people like to slap the racism label on to harmless things as a frivolous attack.

When you think Klingon, do you think of an honor-bound, alcohol-drinking space biker with a desire to bust heads? That's racist. Not all Klingons have those qualities, it's a stereotype..

but I'm not offended by Klingons being portrayed that way, nor am I offended by a black guy eating chicken.

Chicken is delicous, if anything, I'm jealous.