SGU shows why the Maquis-SF dispute ended

[propita]

SGU has a bunch of civilians who have nothing to do but bitch and complain. The Destiny runs itself; Voyager doesn't. Voyager can't afford a bunch of whiny civilians who have no assigned tasks.

And if tasks are going to be assigned, some set of rules is required. The default is Fleet rules--Fleet ship, Fleet rules.

 

[spoonunseptium]

By SGU I assume you mean Star Gate: Universe, correct?


because that really makes sense, actually. The maquis & starfleet can't afford to fight over differences because thy had to survive and they had to learn how to survive together as quickly as possible.


as for SGU, i agree; there were definitely a bunch of whiny civilians. They should have just listened to the commanders; democracy doesn't count when you're stuck a terrifying ammount of lightyears from home.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Maquis and the starfleet types had to cooperate if they wanted to go home.

What home did the Maquis think they were going home to?

The Maquis shouldn't have been bothered about being so far away from their contested, wartorn, lost and doomed homes. That is for the many of Chakotay's crew who were not out and out mercenaries who did not have faith in Chuckles cause and was only in on the fun for the killings.

As late as season 6 the Admiralty still insisted that Janeway was bringing the Maquis back to federation space for trial and jail for being dastardly criminals. What sort of idiot fights tooth and nail through 70 years of hostile unknown space just to make their way to a wigwam in a penal colony where they will be convicts and be forced to burden all the limited and reduced liberties that go hand in hand with such a citizenship demotion.

The Maquis supposedly just wanted somewhere to farm and watch their children interbreed. THEY COULD DO THAT ANYWHERE without having Federation Security jostling them with cattle prods as to when it is their bed time, work time and feeding time once they were ejected into the Burroughs of Huntly's Prime Rain Forest and ordered to fend for themselves until they were allowed to return to the 24th century.

In season 5 when it became known that the maquis had been exterminated. That they had no homes to return to, rather than no plausible homes to return to these citizens of no where who had rejected the law and governance of the federation which hunted, murdered and jailed them most assuredly THEN should have colonized the fist moon they passed which seemed uncontested and habitable.

Taking over the ship, marooning Janeway and her loyaist, and then taking on new crew at a some space truck stop wouldn't have been such a bad plan, how hard would it have been to find another 40 Neelix's? It's how the Orion's have been running their empire/syndicate for the last 4000 years.

Take some cargo jobs. Run point to some convoys. Be valuable members of some new community in space that isn't going to criminalize their every act of conviction and independence.

The Maquis didn't need to go home and they didn't need Janeway and they shouldn't have tolerated either concern.

 

[Anwar]

That wouldn't have been a bad idea, that for S5 the Maquis who remained more independent simply told Janeway they wanted off the ship on the next habitable world.

Of course, there were only 30 or so of them so by that point in the series they realized they were a bit outnumbered for a real mutiny and Chakotay put too much time and effort into working with the Fleet crew to just up an leave.

Besides, working to save a Fed ship all that time would've given them a better reputation and score points with the Fes to simply NOT throw them in jail when they got home.

 

[Timo]

I'd argue that the Maquis would have been the ones wanting to go home, while for the Starfleeters the matter would have been more or less indifferent.

After all, the Maquis were not happy with having a generic place to farm and breed. They were Maquis for the very specific reason that they against all logic and hardship wanted a very specific spot for their farming and breeding. They could no doubt have had any untamed planet they wanted, but they went to war for the right to have the specific planet that was harassed by Cardassians and would be casus belli for an interstellar war if they persisted.

That IMHO is far greater motivation to getting back to the UFP borderlands than Janeway's vague notions of a possible boyfriend waiting for her, or Kim's girlfriend or ex-girlfriend. Some other Starfleeters might have a relationship to home that was comparable to the Maquis one, but not too many of them...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[propita]

I'm agreeing with GG. If the goal is to return to the AQ, then cooperation is pretty much required. Despite the Admiralty, the Maquis had a chance to leave in "The 37s" and didn't. I really would've thought someone would've had their fill--at least one Maquis, who had nothing left in the AQ. But...that would've ruined that touching scene of Janeway and Chakotay now, huh?

Someone check the timeline, was Suder dead by then. If not, was he--or should he have been--allowed to stay with the 37s had he wanted? Personally, if he was alive at that time, I don't think Janeway, or any of them, could in good conscience leave a rehabilitating psychopath to the care of others.

 

[Guy Gardener]

meld happened well after the 37s, which was filmed as part of season 2 but sold as part of season one.

Suder was a ticking timbebomb still.

What about the two ticking timebobs inside Tuvok? Did they subtly manipulate his choices to be in space to pass on his space herpies and surround by marquis so he could murder as many as possible once his sleeper agent personality kicked in? I's a possibility that the security officer manipulated the choices people made to stay or go somehow that day.

Your argument can be summed up with one word Timo: Jerusalem.

That's a lost/doomed pitch of dirt that three religions have been throwing themselves against to the death since before the Crusades.

 

[Anwar]

You'd think we'd just let all three of them be able to enter or exit the city at their leisure instead of killing each other over who is "dominant".

Course, the situation is a little more stable these days.

 

[Akiraprise]

SGU has a bunch of civilians who have nothing to do but bitch and complain. The Destiny runs itself; Voyager doesn't. Voyager can't afford a bunch of whiny civilians who have no assigned tasks.

And if tasks are going to be assigned, some set of rules is required. The default is Fleet rules--Fleet ship, Fleet rules.

The civilians are getting rather tiring on SGU. Would people really act like they do on SGU, in real life, if put into that kind of situation? I would hope not.

At least with the Maquis it seemed as if most had some kind of military training or some background with a command structure. In a situation such as that found on Destiny or Voyager a command structure is almost mandatory for survival. Somebody needs to be in charge because everyone for themselves would lead to certain death.

 

[Wicca who Wonta]

The civilians are getting rather tiring on SGU. Would people really act like they do on SGU, in real life, if put into that kind of situation? I would hope not.

Unfortunately, some probably would. Hopefully most people would step up and act in everyone's best interest, though.

At least with the Maquis it seemed as if most had some kind of military training or some background with a command structure. In a situation such as that found on Destiny or Voyager a command structure is almost mandatory for survival. Somebody needs to be in charge because everyone for themselves would lead to certain death.

Agreed!

 

[Guy Gardener]

Thinking back to lost in Space. Dr Smith was always submitting to what he thought was the most powerful figure in his proximity which most of the time i admit was Maureen Robinson, But honestly what's going to happen to the Command structure on the Destiny when it has to be like a reed rather than stand firm like an oak?

Janeway bent over for the Devour Imperium, but she murdered and murdered the Krenum and Swarmies who tried to lay down their law when she was in their space because she s mostly a hostile and ungracious guest.

 

[Anwar]

I dunno, when the Krenim captain was nice and told her "Things are kind of rough right now, maybe you shouldn't come in" she obliged and just left.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Exactly.

We have to assume that the two Janeway's mental states, ships, it's stores, health and the well being of both their crews on each of these realities were identical, since it was at about the same starting point before Annorax starting fiddling her consistency after she entered Krenum space.

In one reality she was kindly asked to go around, and she did, but in the other reality she was ordered not to go through, and she reacted with force and vitriol stating that she can damn well go were she damn well please and no one is going to tell her what she can damn well do or not do unless they outgun her.

Doesn't that seem a little unstable that one is unwilling to be forced into an action that they were already will to go through with?

It's how people treat her that determines if she's going to react with a smile or a snarl, which is true for most people, but there was no real impediment in her going around Krenum space since she agreed to it after a kind word that she could have as easily agreed to after a threat, but she decided that it was easier to spend a year being attacked by hundreds of ships than to lose some face complying to orders that she'd willing submit to anyway as a request if her ego wasn't being grated and humbled by her inferiors.

 

[Anwar]

Well, in the other timeline I'm assuming one race told her it was okay to go through and the Krenim showed up after they were already in there and told her to get out. Basically they were too deep into the area and not willing to acknowledge the Krenim claim while having the other race back up Voyager.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Day One Take One.

LANG: They're firing on us, Captain.
TUVOK: It's a small vessel, fifteen lifeforms aboard. Low warp capacity, limited armaments. They pose no threat.
JANEWAY: Open a channel. Good day, sir. Have we offended you in some way?
KRENIM COMMANDANT [on viewscreen]: You will reverse course immediately. This region is in dispute. You have no business in Krenim space.
JANEWAY: I was under the impression we were entering Zahl territory.
KRENIM COMMANDANT [on viewscreen]: The Zahl have no legitimate claim here. They have taken what is ours, Reverse course or be destroyed.
JANEWAY: With all due respect, unless you've got something a little bigger in your torpedo tubes I'm not turning around, but I'm certainly willing to discuss this issue with you.
KRENIM COMMANDANT [on viewscreen]: No discussion! No compromise!
TUVOK: They are in retreat.
CHAKOTAY: His bark's obviously worse than his bite.
JANEWAY: He seems rather intent. Let's go to yellow alert. Maintain our course. Maybe the Zahl can give us some answers.

Day One. Take Forty Seven.

JANEWAY: When can you bring it online?
SEVEN: We just did.
KIM: In fact, we're in the process of charting a new course home.
JANEWAY: Well I'd say this is cause for celebration.
TUVOK: A vessel is approaching off the port bow, Captain.
JANEWAY: On screen.
KIM: They're hailing us.
JANEWAY: Open a channel.
KRENIM COMMANDANT [on viewscreen]: You've entered Krenim space. State your identity.
JANEWAY: Captain Janeway of the Starship Voyager. We're just passing through, trying to get home.
KRENIM COMMANDANT [on viewscreen]: This region is in dispute. I suggest you avoid our territory.
JANEWAY: Thanks for the warning.
KRENIM COMMANDANT [on viewscreen]: Good journey.
CHAKOTAY: Tom, plot a course around Krenim space.
PARIS: Aye, sir.
CHAKOTAY: So what do you think how about a ground-breaking ceremony for our new lab?
KIM: Sounds great.
JANEWAY: I think I'll replicate a bottle of Saint Emillion for the occasion. 2370. I hear that was a good year.

I suppose possibly that the difference between day one take one and day one take 47 was that the Zahl said it was okay for Janeway to go through and the Krenim just seemd like crazy hobos... But why believe the Zahl? Why were they so credible just because the Krenim were deushes? Don't tell me you're only allowed to be a deush if you're well armed enough to smite anyone getting preachy about your bad attitude?

So, you're right.

 

[Anwar]

We never saw the Zahl, maybe they WERE more credible and helpful.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Day 4
[Briefing Room]
ZAHL OFFICIAL: As long as you travel in Zahl territory you travel among friends. I apologize for your mishap with the Krenim.
JANEWAY: It was hardly traumatic, but I am curious. The Krenim claim this region as their own.
ZAHL OFFICIAL: The Krenim dominated this space many years ago. They possessed deadly weapons based on temporal science, and it kept them in power for a long time. But a generation ago we fought the Krenim. We defeated them and took back the planets that they had annexed, dismantled their military forces. Their ships still wander our territory making grandiose claims. Don't let them trouble you. Now, tell me about Voyager. A single ship alone, half a galaxy from home. How exciting for you.
KIM [OC]: Bridge to Captain. Sorry to interrupt but the Krenim vessel is back. They're demanding to speak with you.

Annorax is talking about how destroying one of the Zahls colonies in the teaser was not enough to fix their error, so he set course for the Zahl homeworld.

This is the sort of bad intelligence that dragged the world in Iraq.

The Zahl and the Krenim were both wrong.

They were both little bitches living in Annorax's sandbox.

 

[Anwar]

Well, in that situation it's easier to believe the guys in charge with an organization rather than the ones who clearly come off as whining losers/space hobos.

The Rilnar, the Zahl, Annorax should have just left well enough alone. All wiping them out did was make his life miserable.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Being in love with a woman who deserted him is what made him miserable.

Gotta, gotta get her back no matter the cost.

The universe can burn if he can gotta get her back.

Red would do the same for Kitty.

 

[Anwar]

She deserted him? I thought he wiped her out of existence.

Ah well, maybe it's the violent tendencies he's been suppressing since his days as a Detroit supercriminal.