That's a BS justification. Do you actually think that people are improved by being raped and having their family members murdured? Not only is that BS, that's sociopathic.
Gul Dukat Rules - Favorite Moment
- Thread starter mysticgeek
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That's a BS justification. Do you actually think that people are improved by being raped and having their family members murdured? Not only is that BS, that's sociopathic.
I never once said that. You are inferring.
Then by all means explain further what you meant by that statement. Rape and murder are all part of war and conquest, this nation building of which you speak. People also used to say, "It's the way things have always been" to justify slavery in the US. "It has always been this way" is not a justification for atrocities, invasions, or theft of resources.
That's part of the problem with making vague statements and not putting them into context. People will infer things based on other things you have already said, such as your justifications of Dukat. Communication is a two way street. There is what you say and what others interpret. The clearer you are with what you say the less chance you have of being misunderstood.
Dear God.
Mystic, I want you to look into your own heart and answer this question: When a truly good man meets the daughter of a woman he loved and lost, is it normal, decent behavior to want to seduce the daughter? To have sex with his "beloved's" daughter? To do the same erotic things with the daughter that he did with her mother, the woman he supposedly loved? No no no no no no no no no no no no no NO. It is in fact sick.
In your heart, you know that, though I don't really expect you to admit it here.
How anybody who wants to prove Dukat is a good person can bring up this episode is an complete mystery to me. How they can watch this episode and still keep their good opinion of him is an even more enormous mystery.
As for Kira's mother...sure, she believed she loved him, and I guess she did, and I guess she believed he loved her the way a man loves a woman rather that the way a man covets a pretty object. But as Nerys has pointed out (other posters have as well), there are valid psychological reasons why this happens sometimes in real life, and those reasons have nothing to do with the manipulator being a good person. I mean, jeez, the poor woman was imprisoned in a brothel, subject to being used by any officer who fancied her. Psychologically horrible things happen to people in these situations.
Battered women (and battered men, for that matter) can be brought to believe that they deserve the beatings they receive. They actually believe that the abuse is the fault of the abused rather than the abuser. Does that mean that they are right and they really do deserve to be beaten? Hostages can be made to sympathize with their kidnappers and even pity them, even kidnappers who abuse them horribly (a couple of examples of this involving kidnapped children have come to light in just the past couple of years). Does that mean those captors deserve sympathy and pity? Slaves have been known to defend their masters, even masters who abuse them horribly. Does that mean the masters are good people?
No and no and no. And the thing is, I'm pretty sure you know that.
What happened to Kira's mother is the same sort of thing that happens to some battered wives, hostages and slaves. It's a delusion, a way to escape the horrors of their otherwise unbearable situations.
It's sometimes called the Stockholm syndrome, but it goes by other names including terror-bonding. It doesn't happen with everybody placed in miserable positions from which they cannot escape but it does happen out here in Reality Land. Here's one link for you to peruse: http://health.howstuffworks.com/stockholm-syndrome.htm.
But if you don't trust my source, look it up, for goodness' sake. You really need to know about this stuff before you make the same mistake with a real-life person that you're making with the fictional Dukat.
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THANK YOU for that fantastic explanation, Kate.
And if we don't--as we haven't many times before--get a direct acknowledgment of this, then I think there is no longer any point in trying to discuss this because mysticgeek will not even acknowledge the Occupation as an atrocity.
And if we don't--as we haven't many times before--get a direct acknowledgment of this, then I think there is no longer any point in trying to discuss this because mysticgeek will not even acknowledge the Occupation as an atrocity.
It is a testimony to what a great villain Dukat is, and how charismatic Marc Alaimo was in the role, that he can seduce the audience to the point of delusion in much the same way as he could do to people in-universe.
Which is also very chilling as it is a reminder of how easily and thoroughly people can get manipulated in real life into supporting and following some very sinister figures.
Which is also very chilling as it is a reminder of how easily and thoroughly people can get manipulated in real life into supporting and following some very sinister figures.
Excellent post. Just excellent, Kate.
I agree with you Nerys. In fact, I'm done directing any post toward the OP in this particular thread unless it becomes an actual discussion and not just the OP trying to "battering ram" an untenable position by nothing more than repetition.
Indeed. I've seen a lot of people get hurt by outwardly charming and charismatic individuals. Some of them wised up and got away. Others stayed stuck in the same abusive rut for years.
My oh my, I hadn't been reading this thread... Lots of great responses Diabolikate, Nerys Dukat and others, so that is comforting 
I will add this: I'm glad the writers avoided the trap of Kira and Dukat becoming romantically involved for a couple of reasons. Basically there were two options here.
On the one hand, a sincere romance and a redemptive arc for Dukat. This would have been unimaginable from Kira's point of view (thank you, Nana Visitor), and it would have been far too easy a resolution to Dukat's dark past and meglomaniacal urges.
On the other hand, a Stockholm Syndrome-style warped dependancy whereby Kira is seduced and manipulated by Dukat. I imagine this was the one the writers were tempted by, and it must have been very tempting indeed. It seems somewhat topical, and psychologically plausible, at least potentially. But it would have made a victim of Kira, and one of the things that is great about Kira is that she is vulnerable and traumatized at the beginning, but not doomed to be a victim eternally.
What we ended up getting with Kira was great: she went through hell during the occupation, and she goes through a lot more over the course of seven seasons, but she emerges as a whole person who is stronger for it. This is what makes her character arc one of the best in Trek, and I'm very glad it wasn't sacrificed on the alter of having her sleep with Dukat for however long.
I will add this: I'm glad the writers avoided the trap of Kira and Dukat becoming romantically involved for a couple of reasons. Basically there were two options here.
On the one hand, a sincere romance and a redemptive arc for Dukat. This would have been unimaginable from Kira's point of view (thank you, Nana Visitor), and it would have been far too easy a resolution to Dukat's dark past and meglomaniacal urges.
On the other hand, a Stockholm Syndrome-style warped dependancy whereby Kira is seduced and manipulated by Dukat. I imagine this was the one the writers were tempted by, and it must have been very tempting indeed. It seems somewhat topical, and psychologically plausible, at least potentially. But it would have made a victim of Kira, and one of the things that is great about Kira is that she is vulnerable and traumatized at the beginning, but not doomed to be a victim eternally.
What we ended up getting with Kira was great: she went through hell during the occupation, and she goes through a lot more over the course of seven seasons, but she emerges as a whole person who is stronger for it. This is what makes her character arc one of the best in Trek, and I'm very glad it wasn't sacrificed on the alter of having her sleep with Dukat for however long.
A redemptive arc, in my opinion, could not even happen with a romance--at least not for YEARS in the future.
Look at St. Paul--he was VERY similar. Full of himself and bent on killing anyone he disagreed with. And when he came around...that was a truly devastating experience to go through. He encountered tremendous mistrust and it was only over time that people came to accept him. And I truly believe (personally--this is not any official theological stance) that one of the reasons he never married was because of how much guilt he still felt for his actions before the Road to Damascus.
If Dukat TRULY repented, TRULY felt the weight of all of his sins--believe me. With all that the guy has done, there is NO WAY he would be in any kind of shape for a relationship. Perhaps Kira might feel sorry for him, perhaps find someone who could help him put himself back together (clergy or a counselor), but actually be in a romantic relationship? No.
Look at St. Paul--he was VERY similar. Full of himself and bent on killing anyone he disagreed with. And when he came around...that was a truly devastating experience to go through. He encountered tremendous mistrust and it was only over time that people came to accept him. And I truly believe (personally--this is not any official theological stance) that one of the reasons he never married was because of how much guilt he still felt for his actions before the Road to Damascus.
If Dukat TRULY repented, TRULY felt the weight of all of his sins--believe me. With all that the guy has done, there is NO WAY he would be in any kind of shape for a relationship. Perhaps Kira might feel sorry for him, perhaps find someone who could help him put himself back together (clergy or a counselor), but actually be in a romantic relationship? No.
As I watch Season 7 again... and watch the whole Kira & Odo thing .. I cannot help but think how bored she seems. She would have far more excitement if she were with Dukat.. far more!
Yes, I basically agree, well put. A long, painful, traumatic road to redemption? Maybe. But just becoming a decent fellow over night and having a normal, loving relationship? No.
Well, it takes time to become a so called "better" person ... and Kira would help Dukat along his journey
I loved dukat, I just wished he wasnt so obessed with being friends with sisko, or trying to have his dead lovers wifes kid like him too. He was so obessed with those guys that he destroyed himself, time after time, kira got the best of him, and sisko jested him too. I hated this becuase he was so smart. I loved it when he went crazy, talking to himself, holding sisko captive. This was so awesome. Dukat was the greatest cardassian, Oh besides garrik, WAS AWESOME. 
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