Gul Dukat Rules - Favorite Moment

[mysticgeek]

Oh I am cherry picking indeed ... to prove my point. Point - Counter Point. For every horrible way that he is portrayed and that Kira claims to hate Dukat ... there is a counter to where one can argue they have feelings for each other. You have to look deep into the characters psyche ... it's right there in each encounter they have if you open your mind to it.

 

[JustKate]

Oh, Mystic. On the contrary. I would argue that Dukat's fundamental twistedness as a person and Kira's fundamental loathing for the man is "right there in each encounter if you open your mind to it."

You say we have closed our minds. I say you have. You want to perceive him as a good guy. So you do. It really is as simple as that, at least to me.

I didn't want him to be a bad guy, you know. I mean, I didn't say to myself while watching the early episodes, "Let's make sure Dukat never takes off that black hat, OK?" In the early episodes, you really couldn't tell for sure because Alaimo is so amazing in the role.

But...once I looked "deep into that character's psyche," there it was: utter self-centeredness and selfishness and a need to manipulate people and the world so as to make himself the hero.

I am using your own words against you, partly to tease you, but also because I want you to see that it's possible to watch the show, enjoy show, enjoy the character, and come to exactly the opposite conclusion that you do.

Interesting, huh?

And BTW, I haven't counted (I'm pretty sure you haven't, either), but I am confident that your assertion that "For every horrible way that he is portrayed and that Kira claims to hate Dukat ... there is a counter to where one can argue they have feelings for each other" is flat-out wrong. There are far more examples of her loathing than there are of these "feelings" you claim they have for each other.

And I still know for a fact that my - our - version of Dukat is 1000 times more interesting than yours. He's a great character.

 

[DevilEyes]

Just a few of them - the ones that seem most important to you - that's all we're asking. But you haven't. You just keep going back to these scenes that for whatever reason appeal to your imagination - unlike those that demonstrate Dukat is a manipulative bastard and that he is complicit in and a participant in crimes against Bajor, which apparently do not appeal to you. And you ignore everything else.

Which is very odd, since there are far more scenes of the manipulative bastard type then there are the romantic ones that you seem to favor. But to each his own.

I'm not sure that those aren't really two different sets of scenes. One might say that he's being a manipulative bastard in many or most of those "romantic" scenes.

Oh I am cherry picking indeed ... to prove my point. Point - Counter Point. For every horrible way that he is portrayed and that Kira claims to hate Dukat ... there is a counter to where one can argue they have feelings for each other. You have to look deep into the characters psyche ... it's right there in each encounter they have if you open your mind to it.

Even if that were true, how does that address any of the issues we've named? If Kira were indeed in love with him, would that mean that he was not guilty of those atrocities, or that he is a good person? Of course not. It would only mean that Kira would need to visit a good psychiatrist and have a deep look into her psyche to resolve some issues and traumas from the Occupation, possibly involving a form of Stockholm Syndrome... rather than that she should enter into an awful relationship with an unrepentant war criminal she had been fighting against all her life.

 

[mysticgeek]

@DiaboiKate:

I have never once stated that anyone has a closed mind. You're inferring that I did. I would never claim to be so great that my perceptions are better than anyone in this existence or that anyone's are better than any other because they aren't.

Still I cannot help but argue that a Dukat and Kira relationship would have been far more interesting than the predictable and safe Kria & Odo.

 

[DevilEyes]

Still I cannot help but argue that a Dukat and Kira relationship would have been far more interesting than the predictable and safe Kria & Odo.

I think a Kira/Dukat relationship is very interesting - as long as you don't make it a romance, let alone a happy one. As long as it is twisted and complicated and filled with anger and antagonism, as it was on the show, it is a fascinating and believable dynamic. I enjoyed it and wished that they had done more with it, and found it disappointing that they didn't get any interaction after "Covenant".

But I certainly wouldn't have wanted a romantic hero Dukat, reforming through the love of a good woman etc. That would've been as bad for the character as... well, as bad as what they actually ended up doing with him in season 7.

 

[Sovereign_One]

But I certainly wouldn't have wanted a romantic hero Dukat, reforming through the love of a good woman etc. That would've been as bad for the character as... well, as bad as what they actually ended up doing with him in season 7.

Yeah, why would anyone want to suck the life out of him like that? Even Dukat himself would object to that.

 

[PSGarak]

What? I have to write a novel and throw together a bunch of words for my point to be considered? Not gonna happen. I am like a computer ... straight to the point and accurate.

No one is asking you to write a novel. Everyone who has posted to this has asked you to make sense, and you still aren't. A computer is no more accurate than its programming. GIGO.

 

[JustKate]

@DiaboiKate:

I have never once stated that anyone has a closed mind. You're inferring that I did. I would never claim to be so great that my perceptions are better than anyone in this existence or that anyone's are better than any other because they aren't.

Still I cannot help but argue that a Dukat and Kira relationship would have been far more interesting than the predictable and safe Kria & Odo.

So, saying that I (or we, since there are several of us involved in this debate) ought to "open our minds" differs from implying that you think our minds are closed? Really? How exactly?

As for Kira/Odo, I don't care much one way or another. Meh. There's nothing wrong with romance per se, but I really only care about it as it assists the plot or tells us things about the characters, so it's not a big thing for me when I watch Trek. But I agree with DevilEyes that although it might have been predictable, I fail to understand what's so "safe" about it. Besides, who says she has to end up with either one? Who's to say what happens in the future?

I agree that the Kira/Dukat relationship is very interesting. The thing is, as others have pointed out, it's interesting because it doesn't fit into easy categories. It's interesting exactly as it was - fantastically convoluted and antagonistic and filled with animosity and conflict. Why - why - take that wonderful creation and turn it into anything as...as...as stereotypical as a romance? I don't get it at all.

There aren't that many really interesting, really bad guys out there. Most of them are pure stereotypes - cardboard cutout figures of guys in black hats twirling their mustaches. Dukat most definitely was not. In contrast, there are countless examples - literally countless - in TV and movies and books and plays of bad guys who turn out not to be so bad and who are saved by the love of a good woman.

So why does yet another one strike you as being so dang "interesting"? What's so interesting about that?

I think that you want to see a romance where there is none because that would validate your dearly held belief that underneath it all, Dukat is a great guy. Why you want that since Dukat is such a wonderful character as a non-great guy, as the bad man he really is, I don't understand, but it's clear that is what you want.

Edit:

I'm not sure that those aren't really two different sets of scenes. One might say that he's being a manipulative bastard in many or most of those "romantic" scenes.

Man, are you right - very good point. Being manipulative was, now that I think about it, Dukat's way of being "romantic." Brrrrrr....

 

[mysticgeek]

You have to look deep into the characters psyche ... it's right there in each encounter they have if you open your mind to it.

Is a statement ... not saying you have a closed mind or anyone else does. There is no name calling ... inferring is not nice.

 

[mysticgeek]

BTW ... Dukat is not as bad as everyone thinks. After Ziyal was shot you saw his true vulnerability and could clearly see he is an emotional and caring individual. Many times he said he was sad about the decisions he had to make on behalf of Cardassia.

The united states government has tortured and killed innocent people all over the world .. .that doesn't mean all leaders in the government are bad. The soldiers and other interrogators who tortured and killed innocent folks ... are they terrible monsters? Or are they just defenders of their country doing what they are told...Poor Dukat, he gets a bad rap.

 

[JustKate]

Yes, so you've said. Many times. It's still not true, of course, but I have nothing to add to what's already been said.

 

[PSGarak]

Repetition of the same idea over and over again isn't debate. If all you intend to do is to repeat the same thing over and over again, then yes, we see that you believe that, mysticgeek, but you've given us no reason to believe it as well, and neither did the show. And since you're not willing to address others' points as they have addressed yours, this isn't even a discussion. It's pointless.

 

[apenpaap]

BTW ... Dukat is not as bad as everyone thinks. After Ziyal was shot you saw his true vulnerability and could clearly see he is an emotional and caring individual. Many times he said he was sad about the decisions he had to make on behalf of Cardassia.

He did make them, though.

The united states government has tortured and killed innocent people all over the world .. .that doesn't mean all leaders in the government are bad.

Agreed, but people who are as closely involved with it as Dukat are.

The soldiers and other interrogators who tortured and killed innocent folks ... are they terrible monsters?

Yes.

 

[mysticgeek]

Right, he made them for the good of Cardassia. Also, he wanted to make Bajor a more prosperous world and be more lenient of the Bajorans.. .but the Central Government has a different objective. Not to mention... the Bajorans resisted everything productive that Dukat wanted to implement. The guy cannot win.

 

[Thor Damar]

Right, he made them for the good of Cardassia. Also, he wanted to make Bajor a more prosperous world and be more lenient of the Bajorans.. .but the Central Government has a different objective. Not to mention... the Bajorans resisted everything productive that Dukat wanted to implement. The guy cannot win.

Oh yeah, the Bajorain Resistance certainly proved that....

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

The Bajoran Resistance did what they did because the Cardassians stole their sovereignty and their resources, none of which they had ANY right to. Period. Dukat is not and NEVER will be excused for the Occupation, nor any other Cardassian leader who had anything to do with it.

Only two people that we know of that participated in any capacity in the Occupation ever truly repented, that we know of: Aamin Marritza, and Tekeny Ghemor. These two I consider worthy of respect (though admittedly Marritza needed some help and a better plan ). Dukat NEVER did this and as such he absolutely has to be held responsible for all that he's done. That's not vengeance. That's not hate. That's simply justice.

 

[mysticgeek]

So, to address how Kira could love Dukat ... the answer is found in Wrongs Darker than Death where Kira's mother is shown in love with Dukat. If her mother fell in love with Dukat ... why couldn't she? Kira is sooo conflicted ... all that hate and rage over nothing. If she would have listened to Dukat and found the truth that he told her time and time again.. that he wanted a peaceful world for Bajor ... and that I he loves her... and Her mother ... both of them loved Ziyal ... it all adds up to prove my case that the two of them should and could be together. That the two of them could have found forgiveness ... brought new life to both of their worlds.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Oh SPEW.

That's even worse--it's a GOOD thing that Dukat did her mother and then wanted to do her, too?!

Kira's mother was experiencing Stockholm Syndrome as a result of Dukat's manipulations--no more, no less. Was it intense? Had she deluded herself into believing it was the love of equals and not slavery? Yes. But that did not change the reality of what it WAS. And in the end, to Dukat she was just a pretty object to add to his collection.

And for Kira, moving on from the pain and anger of the Occupation DOES NOT mean it's right for her and Dukat to be together. As someone else said, her and another Cardassian, one who REPENTED his sins, might be appropriate, but NOT this unrepentant dictator and racist. And yes, he WAS a racist: you can be no else if you look at an entire group of people and decide that because of their race they deserve nothing but to be beneath you. It's the space equivalent of "White Man's Burden," and that is undeniably racist. You still have not answered the obvious objection to the Occupation--which is that Cardassia had NO RIGHT to invade Bajor, to steal its sovereignty and its resources, had NO right to try and reshape their culture in its image.

 

[PSGarak]

Kira did not feel hate and rage over nothing, but this horse has been beaten so hard it's not even skeletal anymore. It's dust, and given the real world parallels that have been referenced several times, it's downright offensive.

 

[mysticgeek]

All great nations are built through war and conquest ... it's the way of things, since the dawn of humanity.