Random Thought: Was Janeway Killed Because She was So Polarizing?

[Steve Roby]

I see lots of TNG and DS9 novels being cranked out, and I don't see many VOY books by comparison.

Meanwhile, because I don't restrict myself to reading threads about Voyager, I see people complaining that the DS9 relaunch has ground to a halt and lost all its momentum because so little has been published.

Voyager as a TV series was about getting home, and at the end of the show they got home. Great. Now what? Takes time to figure out a new direction. And then the editor who comes up with the new direction quits. So another editor takes over and has his own ideas and way of doing things and gets started and he gets laid off. And then another editor takes over and has her own ideas and way of doing things and gets started and she gets laid off.

DS9 had its own problems, like the editor and the writer of a key novel both having kids at the same time and having to deal with the impact that had on their available time, and with the writer of another novel being unable to deliver.

None of this was done to piss fans off. It's just an example of one of the oldest universal rules: shit happens. And it's not all about you.

 

[AuntKate]

I do read threads other than Voyager, I just don't post in them very often.

It's not all about me or Voyager, really. It's just that the facts show a drastically fewer number of Voyager novels in the last eight years when compared to TNG and DS9. When I mention that, I am usually accused of being unreasonable and/or given various excuses for the problem.

However, I'm not trying to fix the blame. All I'm asking for is an acknowledgment that the facts don't lie. I'm sure there are valid reasons for this "neglect," but that does not change the facts, nor does it make me very hopeful that this trend will be reversed, unfortunately.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

However, I'm not trying to fix the blame. All I'm asking for is an acknowledgment that the facts don't lie. I'm sure there are valid reasons for this "neglect," but that does not change the facts, nor does it make me very hopeful that this trend will be reversed, unfortunately.

An acknowledgement by whom? The people responsible for what you term "neglect" are all gone from positions of responsibility.

Post-finale Voyager was always going to be problematic, for the very reason Steve Roby notes -- if the television series is built around the premise of getting home, what do you do when you achieve that? Any continuation of the series was always going to be difficult because it would entail finding some reason for the series. The characters themselves aren't sufficient.

 

[AuntKate]

If "getting home" is defined as arriving in the Federation, then I suppose you could say that the series is, indeed, over. But, to me, getting home is a lot more than that--and the series finale didn't address any of it.

 

[rahullak]

I think the premise for the show was based on getting back to the Alpha Quadrant/Federation and exploring the Delta quadrant on the way. That's what the mission became and the mission and the series concluded rightly. For any post-tv-series continuation, a new mission(s) was needed. A mission that most closely resembled the original premise for the tv-show without being almost the same thing is the best bet; in this case: exploring the Delta quadrant and searching for remnants of Borg or Caeliar. Voyager can voyage again.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I don't recall saying I want every book to have a happy ending. I would just like to read future books with Janeway as the main character.

You said you wanted books with main character deaths to be "alternate universe" stories, didn't you? Therefore the books you want in the regular universe can't feature such life-changing events without the status quo being irrevocably altered.

You said:

The thing is that's an alternate universe. An alternate universe to explore the death of Janeway would not be a bad thing either.

 

[captcalhoun]

all you VGR fans should be glad i wasn't in charge of the books. i would've put out one novel about the Homecoming and had the author stick Voyager on SFC's front lawn as a museum piece like Endgame said and then scattered the crew to the four winds. Voyager'd be dead if i was in charge.

and I'd've still let PAD kill Janeway in Before Dishonor.

 

[Therin of Andor]

if the television series is built around the premise of getting home, what do you do when you achieve that? Any continuation of the series was always going to be difficult because it would entail finding some reason for the series. The characters themselves aren't sufficient.

I recall reminding people about "Rescue from Gilligan's Island", the hugely-rated, but exceedingly silly, telemovie which ended with the main characters spending a year at home in the USA and getting back on their boat and going for another three-hour tour, and ending up as castaways on the same island again.

Mmmmm. History repeats.

Maybe the VOY characters should build a hotel on Neelix's new locale?

 

[Steve Roby]

If "getting home" is defined as arriving in the Federation, then I suppose you could say that the series is, indeed, over. But, to me, getting home is a lot more than that--and the series finale didn't address any of it.

Right. That's why Christie Golden's first two relaunch novels did address that. Not at all in the way I would have done it, but it was done. Don't forget, Beyer's novels are the fifth and sixth relaunch novels. We're years past Voyager's homecoming now.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

all you VGR fans should be glad i wasn't in charge of the books. i would've put out one novel about the Homecoming and had the author stick Voyager on SFC's front lawn as a museum piece like Endgame said and then scattered the crew to the four winds. Voyager'd be dead if i was in charge.

If it were up to me, since the ship was so temporally compromised thanks to Admiral Janeway, I'd have off-loaded the crew and had it flown straight into Sol. This would have made a series called "Voyager" problematic, but it's also a realistic solution to the problem. *shrug*

 

[RTMS]

Kestrel - I think, in a weird way, a large part of it might've been that Kira was a much more beloved character than Chakotay. Something like "Kira's in command of the station...Cool! Chakotay's in command of Voyager? Who cares?" was MY reaction, before reading the books.

But Beyer's take on Chakotay's story arc has nullified that complaint completely, and I'm so abundantly thrilled by his character development that I think it puts the VOY-R in every bit as interesting a place as the DS9-R started.

And just in general, DS9 was always more of an ensemble piece. I wonder if people just have a hard time imagining Voyager being good without Janeway. It does seem like most people that are whining so much haven't actually read the books. Which, you know, is fine if you know that you won't like them, but I wonder how many people would find the story worthwhile if they actually took the time to read it.

(This of course does not include Lynx, who has made it absolutely clear he's only interested in any character's development or growth as long as it changes nothing about them at all.)

I have to agree, I just never saw Chakotay as captain or even interesting, either in TV form or book form. Whereas Kira was always a strong character and hence I could see her taking over, which really she was doing almost at the end of the series anyways.By adding almost all new characters in the other positions, one of them a favorite [Ro Laren] I actually got into the DS9-R even though I wasn't a big follower of the TV series.

And really Ben and Data are not really dead since Ben now makes the occasional appearance and it would seem by the comics this summer that Data is somehow back as well. Hence Janeway is the only one aside from Kirk to have really kicked the bucket and stayed that way and even Kirk had a better reason to die than Janeway was given.

I read the book with Janeways' death and really it was terrible writing and a terrible way to go in the first place. Her whole cameo appearance was just hokey and silly. I find that they could have kept her as an admiral and just have her spanning the different novels as such, just as a Necheyev and the other admirals. Chakotay still could have taken over Voyager and the crew still could have new adventures with out her along.

Of course the last thing I want is a Captain Jack Sparrow scenario. I shudder at a insane Janeway.... oh wait wasn't she already?

 

[rahullak]

Janeway and Jack Sparrow....never thought I'd see that comparison. But yeah, "insane Janeway" is a bit redundant.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Hence Janeway is the only one aside from Kirk to have really kicked the bucket and stayed that way and even Kirk had a better reason to die than Janeway was given.

I thought the one thing the book did handle well was Janeway's death. I found it strikingly appropriate that Janeway, Starfleet's most experienced officer in all matters Borgish, should lose her life to the Borg. All of her knowledge, all of her experience, meant nothing, and she became the thing that she had spent years fighting against. In that light, Janeway's death was entirely satisfactory.

 

[RTMS]

Hence Janeway is the only one aside from Kirk to have really kicked the bucket and stayed that way and even Kirk had a better reason to die than Janeway was given.

I thought the one thing the book did handle well was Janeway's death. I found it strikingly appropriate that Janeway, Starfleet's most experienced officer in all matters Borgish, should lose her life to the Borg. All of her knowledge, all of her experience, meant nothing, and she became the thing that she had spent years fighting against. In that light, Janeway's death was entirely satisfactory.

In some ways yes, but she never even had a chance to fight it off, it just happened. I guess the abruptness of it was what turned me off of her death. Kirk at least was fighting until the last, saving the universe one more time. Janeway wasn't even given that much consideration.

 

[Lynx]

Voyager is a dead show. It started to die when Kes was kicked out because from that on, it was all about ratings and effects, not the characters themselves and good stories.

Voyager finally died when Janeway was killed off. What we have now is just shattered ruins and and empty shell.

The "people in suits" killed the series.

 

[Thestral]

Voyager is a dead show. It started to die when Kes was kicked out because from that on, it was all about ratings and effects, not the characters themselves and good stories.

It was always about ratings, from Day 1. Responsibility #1 for a television show is to get viewers, especially the flagship show of a new television network. This does not mean, however, that the characters and stories weren't important. Despite what a lot of elitists might care to think, good ratings does not have to equal bad story or shallow characters, they are not mutually exclusive. I think a lot of writers - especially those who wrote for Seven of Nine - would be disappointed to hear you say that everything after Kes' (saddening) departure was "all about ratings" and nothing to do with a good story.

Voyager finally died when Janeway was killed off. What we have now is just shattered ruins and and empty shell.

The "people in suits" killed the series.

That may be your opinion, but it's not the only one, and it's certainly not the only valid or definitive one. In the minds of many other people, Voyager can (and does) carry on very well even after the death of Janeway.

 

[Saito S]

If "getting home" is defined as arriving in the Federation, then I suppose you could say that the series is, indeed, over. But, to me, getting home is a lot more than that--and the series finale didn't address any of it.

Which is one of the (many) things that was irksome about Endgame. But you can't stretch the "Ok, they're home, woot!" concept across an entire book line; you need to have something going on, some kind of adventure. And as Steve Roby pointed out, they apparently did exactly what I would have assumed they did: spent some time on that, and then moved onto a new adventure.

By adding almost all new characters in the other positions, one of them a favorite [Ro Laren] I actually got into the DS9-R even though I wasn't a big follower of the TV series.

This is actually one of the things that I LOVE about both the DS9 and TNG relaunches, since I've started reading them (which was only about a year ago, actually): new characters. Sure, the characters from the TV shows are great (and bringing Ro back was a wonderful idea), and I certainly wouldn't advocate getting rid of EVERYONE, but for me (and I don't expect everyone to feel this way, of course) I would be less interested in the books if it was just the same crew from the TV series, going along, nothing's really changed... One of the interesting things for me about the books is the opportunity to explore these ideas, of characters leaving/changing/dying, that couldn't be explored on a TV show, and bringing in new characters. Right now, if I'm being honest, I would have to say that I care about what happens to the likes of Miranda Kadohata, T'Ryssa Chen, Prynn Tenmei, and Thirishar ch'Thane just as much as I care about Jean-Luc Picard, Worf, Ezri Dax, or Nog. My long-winded, always rambling point is that not everyone went into this expecting or even WANTING the "keep the TV show cast perfectly intact" approach that some have been advocating as the only logical course.

And really Ben and Data are not really dead since Ben now makes the occasional appearance and it would seem by the comics this summer that Data is somehow back as well.

And to undo Data's death - which was, I felt, one of the few really well-executed MOMENTS (note: moment, meaning the ONE scene, not all of the events leading up to it) in a movie riddled with problems - would be pretty lame, if you ask me. It's done; let it be.
Having said that, are those "Countdown" comics really canon, per se...?

I read the book with Janeways' death and really it was terrible writing and a terrible way to go in the first place.

Eh, I dunno... I had my problems with Before Dishonor as a whole... it's definitely not among my favorite Trek books, but I didn't think it was that bad. And I thought the way Janeway's death was handled specifically was pretty good.

Janeway and Jack Sparrow....never thought I'd see that comparison. But yeah, "insane Janeway" is a bit redundant.

In some ways yes, but she never even had a chance to fight it off, it just happened. I guess the abruptness of it was what turned me off of her death. Kirk at least was fighting until the last, saving the universe one more time. Janeway wasn't even given that much consideration.

I may be remembering the events of the book incorrectly, but in the end, didn't her consciousness reassert itself to some degree, allowing her to (with, granted, help from Seven) stick it to the Borg big time before biting it?

Voyager is a dead show. It started to die when Kes was kicked out because from that on, it was all about ratings and effects, not the characters themselves and good stories.

Voyager finally died when Janeway was killed off. What we have now is just shattered ruins and and empty shell.

The "people in suits" killed the series.

Kestrel covered this quite well, but I just wanted to point something out: I liked Voyager better during seasons 4-7 than I did during seasons 1-3. Just by a small margin, but I did. I thought Kes was an ok character... not my least favorite, but just kinda "there" to me. Whereas I found Seven to be a fascinating character, who could have contended with The Doc and Tom for the top of my VOY character list if not for three things. 1) The catsuit. She would have looked sooo much better in a freakin' uniform, from a professionalism/practicality standpoint, but also (if you ask me) from a purely hotness standpoint, as well. 2) The fact that during the last couple of seasons, the show felt at times like "The Janeway & Seven Hour", and it got a little ridiculous. And of course 3) Chakotay/Seven. This was such a WHAT. moment when I saw Endgame. I mean, seriously... not only did it come completely out of NOWHERE, but I would think Seven would need someone with some kind of a personality to be with.

Incidentally, guess who my least favorite Voyager character is.

 

[captcalhoun]

no, Countdown is not canon. no tie-ins are canon.


*AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGH!!!!!!!!!!*

 

[Saito S]

no, Countdown is not canon. no tie-ins are canon.


*AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGH!!!!!!!!!!*

Well, there is that. Believe me, I wish some of the awesome stuff I've read in both the TNG and DS9 relaunches WAS canon.

But what I meant (I should have worded it better) was that it isn't necessarily canon for the books, is it? Meaning that if the Countdown comics say "Data is somehow alive in the post-Nemesis era", can't the author/editor team at Pocketbooks responsible for the TNG/DS9/VOY/Destiny/etc etc novel continuity just say "In OUR continuity, he's still dead."?

 

[Thrawn]

Yes, they can.