It's over: Ellison vs ST tie-ins

[Daddy Todd]

Spock-Prime will see to it that they get taken care of. Vulcans are an endangered species in the new timeline, and a threat that could destabilize the Federation could turn Vulcans into an extinct species. Logically, Spock-Prime has to do what he can to minimize the external threats that lurk in the distance. If that means telling Starfleet that the way to deal with the Doomsday Machine is this, and the way to deal with Vejur is that, he'll do it. It's only logical. The timeline he's from is gone (or inaccessible to him); his only priority is to ensure the safety of the Vulcan people.

That sounds like a cool hook for TrekLit to hang a series on, once the JJverse is well enough established to spin off a book-only series.

I'm not gonna say any more, for fear of crossing the line into "story ideas" territory, but I can see real potential for some great storytelling.

 

[JarodRussell]

^ I've given more than a bit of thought to what influence Spock-Prime might have, and with what degree of subtlety he might proceed with addressing events he knows will happen in the years to come. That's as close to the fanwank line as I've gone, though.

They should have killed Spock Prime. Him staying raises more questions than it answers. He and Nero are responsible for a great violation of another universe. The Prime Directive applies here. If you aren't allowed to mess with planets you have nothing to do with, then you aren't allowed to mess with parallel universes you have nothing to do with. His first, both logical and emotional, priority would be to undo all the damage he and Nero caused to that universe.

Clearly, time travel works. Slingshotting around a sun, generating some kind of temporal vortex, etc... They did it all the time in Star Trek. Clearly, switching between parallel universes works. We've seen that in "Parallels" and the DS9 mirror universe episodes where they were able to beam from one universe in the other.

So there is NO reason why he can't time travel and stop Nero before he destroys the Kelvin. And there is no reason why he can't return to his own universe.

The Defiant's time travel and parallel universe travel in the ENT episode "In a Mirror, Darkly" is exactly what happened to Spock and Nero. They travelled back in time, and switched universes. And Star Trek's fictional history shows that Spock Prime is capable of undoing ANY damage that was caused to that universe.

In Star Trek, each universe has its own timeline. I don't buy Orci's flawed excuse for retconning how Trek time travel works with "bringing the most current scientific theory into Star Trek". Beaming is not possible either, Dilithium doesn't exist, so does he now forget about beaming and warp drive, too?

 

[Dayton Ward]

Sure, maybe the timeline could've been restored, but it wasn't. Unless the next film offers up some change in that status quo, we're here, and we go forward.

Speaking only for myself, and as much as I love TOS over all the other series, I welcome the clean slate and all the potential that brings. This time, I'm just gonna have Jim Kirk walk right up and kick that Gorn in the junk.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

That sounds like a cool hook for TrekLit to hang a series on, once the JJverse is well enough established to spin off a book-only series.

Were it up to me, I think the idea of Spock-Prime short-circuiting certain threats in the mid-23rd-century (and how Starfleet goes about using his knowledge) would lend itself to an anthology. You get a variety of stories, and you don't milk the concept of nuTrek facing oldTrek's monsters until the audience is tired of it. If readers want more, getting another anthology off the ground isn't difficult. If readers hate it, it's been done and we don't need to worry about it any more. So that's what I'd do. An anthology. Were it up to me.

 

[Mysterion]

^ I've given more than a bit of thought to what influence Spock-Prime might have, and with what degree of subtlety he might proceed with addressing events he knows will happen in the years to come. That's as close to the fanwank line as I've gone, though.

Is the Fanwank Line anything like the Maginot Line? Or maybe the Mason-Dixon Line?

Seriously, i agree with your comments up-thread. While it'd be nice to see a nod here or there to TOS things we're familar with, nuTrek is a really good chance to try new stuff and shouldn't be wasted re-writing stories we already know.

 

[Therin of Andor]

The Prime Directive applies here. If you aren't allowed to mess with planets you have nothing to do with, then you aren't allowed to mess with parallel universes you have nothing to do with.

Temporal Prime Directive. Which most people stuck in a time travel dilemma easily ignore!

And the regular Prime Directive applies to pre-warp civilizations.

I expected Spock Prime to die in the last movie, and was pleasantly surprised when he didn't. Just as (when I was deliberately told the Vulcan spoiler, by someone determined to ruin my viewing experience) I was pleasantly surprised to realise that Sarek was also going to live.

 

[JarodRussell]

The Prime Directive applies here. If you aren't allowed to mess with planets you have nothing to do with, then you aren't allowed to mess with parallel universes you have nothing to do with.

Temporal Prime Directive. Which most people stuck in a time travel dilemma easily ignore!

Why would Spock ignore to help 6 billion people? Just because they are from parallel universe doesn't mean their existence is worth less.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Why would Spock ignore to help 6 billion people? Just because they are from parallel universe doesn't mean their existence is worth less.

He isn't ignoring them! He's helping the survivors.

 

[JarodRussell]

Why would Spock ignore to help 6 billion people? Just because they are from parallel universe doesn't mean their existence is worth less.

He isn't ignoring them! He's helping the survivors.

Can't agree with that. Had Picard failed in stopping the Borg in First Contact, and survived, would he sit back and not attempt another time travel to undo the damage? No, he wouldn't. Intrusions from the future are not supposed to happen. Parallel universe or not. That has been the basic principle for any time travel episode in Trek. Especially when you look at Yesterday's Enterprise. It's not supposed to happen, Guinan said. And eventually everyone agree with that.

Kirk and Spock followed McCoy to undo the damage he caused in the past. Had they failed their mission in the first attempt, they would have tried again, if possible. And it is possible for Spock Prime.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Can't agree with that. Had Picard failed in stopping the Borg in First Contact, and survived, would he sit back and not attempt another time travel to undo the damage? No, he wouldn't. Intrusions from the future are not supposed to happen. Parallel universe or not.

Sorry, we seem to be on totally different tangents here. Spock travelled to the new timeline/universe via an accidental trip through a black hole. How is he supposed to return? Slingshot around the sun will take him through time in the new universe.

 

[Broccoli]

^ It is comparable to Marty in Back to the Future. Marty originated in a 1985 where his parents were dorks and siblings were losers.

He then goes back in time, causes things to change, then goes forward in time to a new 1985.

Marty now finds his parents are hip and his siblings are seemingly successful. However, Marty is exactly the same, because he came from that initial time period.

 

[JarodRussell]

Can't agree with that. Had Picard failed in stopping the Borg in First Contact, and survived, would he sit back and not attempt another time travel to undo the damage? No, he wouldn't. Intrusions from the future are not supposed to happen. Parallel universe or not.

Sorry, we seem to be on totally different tangents here. Spock travelled to the new timeline/universe via an accidental trip through a black hole. How is he supposed to return? Slingshot around the sun will take him through time in the new universe.

There's the point. He could prevent the destruction of Vulcan in that new universe, undo the damage he caused (he brought the weapon, he is accessary to the destruction, even if it was just an accident that brought him there). And only then he could sit back and decide if it was worth to try to return to his own universe (via fancy beaming, or how they ever got Worf back into his universe, or other stuff) or not.

The point is that he simply must have a logical and moral obligation to attempt time travel to stop Nero from wreaking havoc. He was the one who suggested time travel to save Earth from the Whale Probe, so it's not new to him to time travel to save billions. So there's precedent that he chose to counteract a natural development of things with time travel. So he definately would chose to prevent Nero's unnatural violation of the timeline with time travel, too.

And I guess all the inhabitants of that new parallel universe, especially those 6 billion dead, would agree with that.


*edit*

LOL, and he doesn't even have to slingshot. He knows where the Guardian is (to link back to the original topic).

 

[Christopher]

And the regular Prime Directive applies to pre-warp civilizations.

No, only part of it does. One facet of the PD is "Don't reveal yourself to pre-warp civilizations," but the other is "Don't interfere with other civilizations' politics, culture, or wars." That part applies to all non-UFP civilizations. It was the Prime Directive that kept Starfleet from intervening in the Klingon Civil War, and that made Janeway determined to keep Starfleet technology out of Kazon hands. Those are both warp-capable civilizations.

There's the point. He could prevent the destruction of Vulcan in that new universe, undo the damage he caused (he brought the weapon, he is accessary to the destruction, even if it was just an accident that brought him there).

No, he couldn't. Whether you personally like it or not, as long as Abrams' "Supreme Court" is in charge of Trek, it's obeying the principle that time travel can only create new timelines and cannot erase old ones. What happened has happened, period. If Spock went back in time and created yet another timeline, it might look to him subjectively as though he's "undone" Vulcan's destruction, but the timeline in which it was destroyed would still exist. All he'd be doing is abandoning it, not "fixing" it.

And past precedents of history being "overwritten" don't prove anything. In fiction, past precedent is only as binding as the creators want it to be. Star Trek has rewritten its scientific and technological assumptions before and it will do so again. Warp drive lets you get to the center of the galaxy in 20 minutes! No, it takes at least 30 years! Transporters turn your matter into energy! No, they just break you down into a matter stream! Holodeck characters are made of "holodeck matter" which is unstable beyond the holodeck! No, they're "photonic" creatures of light and forcefields! Time and time again, Trek has retconned old, flawed science out of existence. Now the same has been done with time travel.

 

[JarodRussell]

There's the point. He could prevent the destruction of Vulcan in that new universe, undo the damage he caused (he brought the weapon, he is accessary to the destruction, even if it was just an accident that brought him there).

No, he couldn't. Whether you personally like it or not, as long as Abrams' "Supreme Court" is in charge of Trek, it's obeying the principle that time travel can only create new timelines and cannot erase old ones. What happened has happened, period. If Spock went back in time and created yet another timeline, it might look to him subjectively as though he's "undone" Vulcan's destruction, but the timeline in which it was destroyed would still exist. All he'd be doing is abandoning it, not "fixing" it.

That is seriously the worst retcon ever. It doesn't work with any of the time travel episodes in previous Trek. First Contact, Yesterday's Enterprise, The City on the Edge of Forever, Time's Arrow, none of those. They basically retconned the first three seasons of ENT out of existence, too.

Warp drive lets you get to the center of the galaxy in 20 minutes! No, it takes at least 30 years! Transporters turn your matter into energy! No, they just break you down into a matter stream! Holodeck characters are made of "holodeck matter" which is unstable beyond the holodeck! No, they're "photonic" creatures of light and forcefields!

That is not the same. Time travel has been consistent in Trek for 40 years. There are parallel universes, and each parallel universe has it's own timeline. That is solid for each time travel and parallel universe episode in Trek, from TOS to ENT. ENT's "In a mirror darkly" is exactly what happened in the new movie, a ship gets thrown back in time and switches from one universe into another one.

Time and time again, Trek has retconned old, flawed science out of existence. Now the same has been done with time travel.

I'm wondering when they will retcon warp drive and beaming out of existence, to finally keep up with current science. And if you would then still agree with it.

 

[Christopher]

Time travel has been consistent in Trek for 40 years.

I laughed quite loudly at this. Time travel in Trek has always been hugely inconsistent. Every possible fictional model of time travel has shown up in one Trek episode or another, regardless of their mutual contradictions. Temporal physics in Trek works in whatever way is convenient to the story. Sometimes history is easily changed, sometimes your actions in the past are what was destined anyway, sometimes Kurtwood Smith is shooting his time gun around and destroying every semblance of coherent storytelling, you name it.

I'm wondering when they will retcon warp drive and beaming out of existence, to finally keep up with current science. And if you would then still agree with it.

You're getting dangerously close to ad hominem attack here, and you've certainly crossed the line into reductio ad absurdem. There's clearly no chance of this being a constructive discussion, and we're wildly off topic anyway. So I'm not going to bother continuing this debate.

 

[Dayton Ward]

They basically retconned the first three seasons of ENT out of existence, too.

Sold!!!

 

[The Nth Doctor]

*looks outside*

Huh, it's still warm outside.

 

[Rosalind]

^ maybe where you are, it was bloody cold in Sydney today!

 

[JarodRussell]

Time travel has been consistent in Trek for 40 years.

I laughed quite loudly at this. Time travel in Trek has always been hugely inconsistent. Every possible fictional model of time travel has shown up in one Trek episode or another, regardless of their mutual contradictions. Temporal physics in Trek works in whatever way is convenient to the story. Sometimes history is easily changed, sometimes your actions in the past are what was destined anyway, sometimes Kurtwood Smith is shooting his time gun around and destroying every semblance of coherent storytelling, you name it.

I don't see how those episodes contradict each other? Those are all the results of having one timeline in one universe. It probably doesn't make scientific sense, but that's not the point. The predestination loops were also consistent, as far as I remember. Either the changes to the timeline were fixed completely, or there where changes that had already been known (like Data's head in Time's Arrow). Sometimes they found a thing from the past that made it possible to prevent the event, ending the loop (why shouldn't that be possible?). Other time travel stories were thing behaved differently (All Good Things, a few DS9 episodes) had the additional influence of Q or the Prophets. And most of the time, as in Year of Hell, the timeline was completely crippled due to several violations, but after destroying the plot device, everything was reset back to normal.

And none of those episode retconned the others out of existence. This new movie (or at least the background interviews) strictly says: no travel along one timeline, only many universes, no predestination paradox. The latter already erases Time's Arrow. The events in Countdown, where Picard sees Spock vanish and nothing changes, erases City on the Edge of Forever and First Contact.

But then again, this shouldn't be a problem if they never ever mention Spock Prime again.

 

[Sci]

Star Trek has always followed both the "time travel changes the timeline you're in" and "time travel creates new timelines that branch off from the main one."

Ultimate evidence?

Somehow Spock, while trapped in the 1930s, is able to rig his tricorder to tell him what was going to happen to Edith Keeler in his timeline before McCoy changed it.

Obviously, that information had to continue to exist somewhere.

So, even though that episode was predicated on the idea that his timeline could be changed, it was also predicated on the idea that a change could produce an alternate timeline that continued to exist independently of the changed timeline.

In other words -- Star Trek has always had it both ways.

In this case, we're just seeing an alternate timeline that branched off instead of staying in an altered timeline. Don't like that? Too bad. Get over it.

And, no, Spock's incapable of getting back to his timeline, until or unless the producers change their minds.