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Star Trek TNG Remastered?

MOST of the vfx elements were shot on 35mm, but by no means all of them. LOUD AS A WHISPER (which could be thrown away entirely in my opinion) has skeleton models for phaser hits shot directly on video.

This means then that they have a large archive of FX material that they could use instead of redoing everything. Now the question is, how feasible would that be?

My point was that they had lots of elements such as the shotonvideo stuff that were of seriously INFERIOR quality, way below 35mm, that in no way could be used for BR DVD and probably look like crap on the current DVDs as well.
 
NOWHERE do I read any mention of 'HD' DVD masters. It says they were taken from DVd masters in 1999. HD wasn't around then, and if it was, there was a big battle between HD DVD and blu ray and no-on eknew which one was going to win out. There must be a lot of people working for Paramount here. I will still be buying these DVD's, though, though I hope they will master from film sometime.

Well I'll be darned if I can find the link now but it is somewhat commonly known that when Blu-ray was first released studios had tried to use the same masters they used for DVD production to produce their Blu-rays, but that this often resulted in a fuzzy looking indistinct picture because when these HD masters were originally produced a lot of noise reduction was applied, which makes it look good when scaling down to DVD resolution but bad when used as a master for Blu-ray. Studios eventually had to refine their mastering process for Blu-ray so as not to include so much noise reduction (DNR).

It is a fact that DVDs are often produced using a high resolution master video file as the source and that studios have had these types of files available for years and years. I think this must be whatever you had read was talking about. I doubt anyone implied that the Blu-rays were sourced from a commercial DVD. The master of the DVD is not the same as the DVD, in much the same way that the master of Abbey road is not the audio CD you end up with from the music store.

If you can find a link implying that the ST Blu-rays were sourced from a commercial DVD as master I would be very interested in seeing it. And no I do not work for Paramount.


Here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_IV:_The_Voyage_Home

And look at Tweaktown and high def digest.

http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/2769/star_trek_the_voyage_home_hd_movie_review/index.html

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/2467/startrek4_voyagehome.html

Or, even better, use your eyes on the stills they have provided.
They have exactly the same look and colour balance to them as the standard DVD. I think it highly unlikely that in 1999, they took a HD master of the film and transfered it to standard res DVD, and kept a high res copy, just in case they were going to bring out a high def version ten years later.

If it's possible to get film or high def quality material from standard DVD, why do they shoot a film originally on film? Why don't they just use a video camera and upscale it? Cos, you can't that's why. It's a very clever fake and it's a con. I bet they're doing it on all those HD channels.
 
Cheapjack the video source is frustrating for home theater buffs for feature films on Blu-ray.
AVSforum.com has very finicky members that get into visual detail critiques both technical and aesthetically.
Perhaps you should check it out.

Can we get back on topic here? TNG TV series....
Once Paramount/CBS home video puts out Star Trek XI they only have one thing left 'in the can' which is 'Enterprise' on Blu-ray. Since any TNG-R would take a lot of time surely they would announce it next year.
 
Voyager HD tests vs TNG 35mm

Thing is, they may just release TNG upscaled too.
With Paramount sextuplet-dipping on TOS seasons:
JUST Season 1 in most of the previous releases: Original VHS Release (1 ep per tape, $20.00 each) – $580.00
Laserdisc release (2 eps per disc, $60.00 each) – $900.00
Original DVD release (single discs, 2 eps per disc – $30.00 each) – $450.00
Original DVD Season set – $160.00, original version only (now sells for around $60.00)
HD-DVD/DVD Combo Season Set – $130.00, remastered version only (now sells for around $85.00)
Blu-ray Season 1 set – $120.00 SRP, usually sold for between $60-90, both original and remastered version in HD.
from this:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=3174825&postcount=1

I really doubt Paramount/CBS home video would triple-dip on Blu-ray with TNG at standard resolution. Fans are not going to repurchase TNG on Blu-ray after they already bought it on VHS & DVD if there is not a huge incentive (visual quality).

The same goes for Voyager.
Now one thing I would like to see is the HD tests that were done on the sets of Voyager in 2001:
the director of photography on Enterprise (93 episodes, 2001-2005) and on Voyager (24 episodes, 1995-1999)
Marvin Rush and the show's producers had previously rejected the format when the show was born four years ago. In fact, Rush began conducting HD tests on the set of the previous Trek show — Star Trek: Voyager — while Enterprise was still in the developmental stage.
Breaking the Comfort Zone
Mar 1, 2005



they did all sorts of testing with 24p cameras on the sets of Voyager, near the end of its run,” Cvjetnicanin explains. “I worked on that material, and we compared it to material shot on film and transferred on a C-Reality telecine and on our Spirit to the HD format, both in 1080i and 24p. We also tried some tape-to-tape color correction on some shots, even though we don’t normally work tape-to-tape for this type of show. There was a consensus that material shot in brighter light situations still had too much of a video look, so in the end, they chose to shoot film. But, as the colorist, I felt like there was a comfort level in the decision after we demonstrated we could have the same type of quality in color timing as when we were conforming Voyager for 4x3.”
Tales from the HD Trenches
Mar 1, 2002


The Star Trek franchise, for instance, seriously considered switching to the Panavised version of Sony's 24p cameras around the time Voyager was winding down, and the new show, Enterprise, was prepping. This talk was so serious that a side-by-side comparison of images captured using the standard Voyager Panavision 35mm film package and the Sony/Panavision 24p system was commissioned.

“We thought the pictures were often good [with HD], but it was a non-starter,” says cinematographer Marvin Rush. “As soon as we saw how the 24p camera handled pyrotechnics, everybody agreed it wasn't right for our show. The camera just can't take overloads. If you shoot off pyrotechnics on set, you might lose three or four frames in film. You lose significantly more in 24p, and you resolve much less detail in the individual pieces of pyrotechnics than with film. Since we do a lot of close-up pyrotechnics, and often work in low light, we needed what only film could give us.”

Dan Curry, the show's visual effects producer, adds that the need to change speeds for effects' shots further discouraged them from using HD for the show. “When we shoot explosions, we want the option of shooting at many different frame rates,” says Curry. There are software programs that can artificially create the illusion of high-speed photography in post, while such techniques were unacceptable to Rush and Curry who needed to capture the detail of the effect at high speed for maximum quality.

The 24p cameras, “were also incapable of handling the kind of contrast we wanted to light for,” adds Rush. “We have bright sources two to three stops over [key]. The 24p camera clipped the highlights where the film held detail. Also, the camera itself was unwieldy. Not totally unusable, but unwieldy by comparison with the 35mm camera we use. We do a lot of handheld work, and we can transmit a signal wirelessly to a monitor. We couldn't do that with the 24p equipment we looked at.”
The Case for Film
Sep 1, 2002


So Voyager's set was shot in HD for tests in 2001 on scenes but we'll probably never see it as it is doubtful Voyager would get a Blu-ray release.
TNG was all 35mm and unless they do a TNG-R we won't see it in HD.
 
Thanks for those links, Jeffries. They've given me something to chew on.

Looking at those stills from TOS on High Def, you can tell they are more detailed. Just looking at those motion picture stills, you can tell they are enhanced. There's something odd about them.

I'll still be buying them, though. They're only £130 on Amazon. They're a step up from standard DVD as much as SD was a step up from VHS.

Who knows, they might be able to do this sort of thing on a home PC in twenty years time. You could buy the original film and do it yourself!

To get back to OP, it says on one of the sites that TNG has a video master. As people have stated before, they would have to do the effects again, if they have the film.

My bet is they'll just enhance it, though they might do what they did with the TOS.
 
they would have to do the effects again, if they have the film.

I just saw this and found it very interesting:
Dan Curry...
a visual effects supervisor on Star Trek: Next Generation and has since served as overall visual effects producer on every subsequent Trek show,

“We shot only miniatures for most of Next Generation on the motion-control stages at Image G [Hollywood],” Curry recalls. “We experimented with a few CG creatures in that show, but all the ships, space stations, and so on were models.
http://digitalcontentproducer.com/mag/video_disappearing_models/index.html

Technically the visual effects house that did the CG work
experimented with a few CG creatures in that show
on TNG could lease those actual CG models to a new visual effects company for any TNG-R work. Similar to how the Ent-D CG models were transferred to different software for other work using Ent-D.

While some Trek fans want to always see the physical Ent-D model:
ManaByte wrote
Personally I'd be against them replacing the ILM model in TNG with a CG Enterprise D because ILM's model is just so perfect.
These two posts show how a CG model, the Ent-D can be reused and rendered in HD resolution for a Blu-ray release:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=2721777&postcount=39
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=2693205&postcount=21

the software today is so much better than in the early 1990s and keeping a CG model and maybe adding better textures and particles would give more details to alien CG models and smoother keyframe animation (in 24fps with motion blur not more fps).
A CG model is only the start. The textures available like the work that has come from Shrek and current CG movies are so much more photorealistic than what could have even been done in the early 1990s. So yes it would totally be a TNG-R with new visual effects...
 
A good miniature shot should look real. A good CGI sequence should look real. Only our knowledge that there is no real starship should betray the effect and as amazing as the filming models were, there's not one shot of it in TNG that would stand up to either today's CGI standards or current viewer expectations.

TNG is heading for HD and its not just for the hardcore collection purchasing weirdos that lurk here and eleswhere. There are millions of casual viewers and potential fans flicking through their premium subscription channels wondering what's so special about their overpriced TV and digital HD tv package. They may find remastered TNG and see how amazing it looks on their new telly, much better than they remember in the 90s, and fuel demand for more trek in HD, DS9, VOY, and even a new series...

Alternatively, TNG could just become a latenight fringe channel repeat show for insomniacs, appreciated only by those who don't mind vintage special effects and those who just want moving pictures in the small hours. To everyone else, standard definition shows from the 90s will looks as old and irrelevant as black and white did in the 80s.

I'm looking forward to a formal announcement on this.
 
TNG is heading for HD and its not just for the hardcore collection purchasing weirdos

I'm glad you have some real enthusiasm for this since no announcement has been made other than the Okuda's mentioning the original camera negative [OCN] of TNG is in storage.


find remastered TNG and see how amazing it looks on their new telly, much better than they remember in the 90s, and fuel demand for more trek in HD, DS9, VOY, and even a new series...
Sure a business looks at units being sold of DVD & Blu-ray to see if a R.O.I. is worth making a special edition that will sell. The level of investment for TNG to be reconformed to HD though is astronomical including all the visual effects.


To everyone else, standard definition shows from the 90s will looks as old and irrelevant as black and white did in the 80s.
This is absolutely true. While not now or soon (under 5 years) as people watch things (in standard definition 640x480 pixels) via FLASH on their computers and will do so for years but yes eventually when HDTVs garner 50% of the market standard definition will be obsolete.
Sure we'll still see standard definition used in news/journalism for you-are-there actual moments captured with an iPhone or cameraphone or digital still camera but not for anything scripted narrative except maybe on TV LAND channel.
Even high schools and colleges A/V and film departments are using high definition video now...
 
A good miniature shot should look real. A good CGI sequence should look real. Only our knowledge that there is no real starship should betray the effect and as amazing as the filming models were, there's not one shot of it in TNG that would stand up to either today's CGI standards or current viewer expectations.

Today's standards for ship stuff is LOWER than the 90s, not higher. DS9's miniature stuff looks better than most stuff that followed it. Except for FIREFLY, most CG spaceship stuff on the tube is not close to photorealistic.
 
I just watched TNG season 7 last disc with special features yesterday and the episode "Parallels" had a shot with hundreds of Ent-D ships that were all shot on motion control camera with 35mm film.
For them to remaster that shot from the film camera negative they would have to locate each piece of film of each ship and them composite them all in. The shot was only 5 seonds or so!
That shot alone shows why if a TNG-R were done that a Ent-D would be fully CGI for all visual effects shots.
 
While the FX technology was lightyears ahead of the shoestring-budget FX seen in the original TOS 2 decades before, the FX technology seen in the first few seasons of TNG were kind of klunky when compared to even the remastered TOS FX.

Has anyone heard of a possible remastered edition of TNG?

J
Yes, there have been a few threads about this, and there's one huge hurdle which makes a remastered TNG extremely difficult. Unlike TOS, TNG was filmed and then edited on videotape. All the FX work was done on videotape, and the only completed, edited episodes are on videotape. There's no way to take that and do a high definition transfer.

Presumeably, the original film still exists, but there is no completed episode on film. Giving TNG the TOS-R treatment would be almost like taking the series back into production and re-editing every scene of episode with new special FX. This could be extremely expensive and impractical.

The producers basically f***ed themselves by trying to save money and edit the episodes on videotape.

So is the final cut a common thing among all of the series between TOS and ENT? If so even a higher resolution edition would be pointless.
 
A good miniature shot should look real. A good CGI sequence should look real. Only our knowledge that there is no real starship should betray the effect and as amazing as the filming models were, there's not one shot of it in TNG that would stand up to either today's CGI standards or current viewer expectations.

Today's standards for ship stuff is LOWER than the 90s, not higher. DS9's miniature stuff looks better than most stuff that followed it. Except for FIREFLY, most CG spaceship stuff on the tube is not close to photorealistic.

Its not just a case of the standard of detail or photorealism of a scene though. Much of DS9 did present a high standard, but the introduction of the new opener in season 4, with eva guys and passing starships, only served to highlight what was missing from the regular episode effects.

B5 for example, the CGI wasn't especially convincing, but it did forward the narrative in a visually interesting way that physical models couldn't hope to compete with on weekly basis. However high the standard of modelling was, CGI today is giving us reflections on glass and glimpses through windows to see the crew inside on a TV budget.

Dissapointingly, SG:U has adopted a tradional cartoony apprearance to its CGI that remains inferior to TNG in terms of photorealism. But it doesn't have to be that way.

Miniature work produced some of my all time favourite space sequences, such as the wounded Enterprise - B overpass in Generations, and the pullback from the station at the start of Event Horizon.

NuBSG (spit) has some amazing and close up exterior shots, indeed, in Razor, theres an amzing internal shot of flightdeck after a crash landing that left me rubbing my eyes such was the attention to detail and rendering.

If done right, the CGI in a new TNGr would make us feel like we're there.
 
Wouldn´t it be possible to just "upconvert" the existing show to HD and then rotoscope the old effects and make new? Wouldn´t be nearly as good as starting from the negatives of course...but better then nothing?
 
I think that a blu ray player would upscale anyway, if you put a standard DVD in it.

Why pay more for an upscaled DVD? It's a bit of a rip off.
 
Unlike TOS, TNG was filmed and then edited on videotape. All the FX work was done on videotape, and the only completed, edited episodes are on videotape. There's no way to take that and do a high definition transfer.

Presumeably, the original film still exists, but there is no completed episode on film. Giving TNG the TOS-R treatment would be almost like taking the series back into production and re-editing every scene of episode with new special FX. This could be extremely expensive and impractical.

The producers basically f***ed themselves by trying to save money and edit the episodes on videotape.

So is the final cut a common thing among all of the series between TOS and ENT? If so even a higher resolution edition would be pointless.

TOS was shot and edited all on film. There was no videotape involved. So it was airable in HD from the get-go.

TNG, DS9 and Voyager would have to have all their EFX recreated from scratch, since those were done on tape. ENT, from what I can gather, would have to have the EFX *re-rendered*, but not recreated. There is a difference.
 
I thought some more about it. Since the effects were done on video and they have to reassemble the episodes from raw material anyway (since probably no film master copy without effects exists) they save the time and money for rotoscoping, right? Finding the right takes of every episode and putting them together shouldn´t be that big of a deal? Surely there´s some kind of document where they noted down wich takes they used?
 
I thought some more about it. Since the effects were done on video and they have to reassemble the episodes from raw material anyway (since probably no film master copy without effects exists) they save the time and money for rotoscoping, right? Finding the right takes of every episode and putting them together shouldn´t be that big of a deal? Surely there´s some kind of document where they noted down wich takes they used?

Indeed, from what I have read this seems to be the case. In fact, the edit information might have been noted directly on the raw film parts. Thus if they have the original film material they also know how it needs to be edited. However, I do not know how conistently this notation was done. Nonetheless, even if they didn't have the documentation, all they would need to do is employ a few dudes to go through every episode and compare them with the raw film parts to get this information. Surely that wouldn't be the money sink of this project?
 
I thought some more about it. Since the effects were done on video and they have to reassemble the episodes from raw material anyway (since probably no film master copy without effects exists) they save the time and money for rotoscoping, right? Finding the right takes of every episode and putting them together shouldn´t be that big of a deal? Surely there´s some kind of document where they noted down wich takes they used?

Indeed, from what I have read this seems to be the case. In fact, the edit information might have been noted directly on the raw film parts. Thus if they have the original film material they also know how it needs to be edited. However, I do not know how conistently this notation was done. Nonetheless, even if they didn't have the documentation, all they would need to do is employ a few dudes to go through every episode and compare them with the raw film parts to get this information. Surely that wouldn't be the money sink of this project?

How much would that cost? And would they make a profit? Has anyone here put the standard DVD in a blu ray player and seen the results on a HD screen?
 
You know most of this technology is still changing and improving, eventually they may be able to transfer the old 35mm negatives onto 1080p HD efficiently and therefore cheaply but the problem would come that the "Hero" version of the USS Enterprise would cost a lot of money to do it digitally on the same level of detail as the USS Enterprise in the film Star Trek (XI), that cg model cost a lot of money to render. What about other ships like Romulan Bird's of Prey or the Borg Cube? Don't get me wrong I want them to redo all those shots for my big screen TV but the money could still easily be in the millions for just one season just because of the CG but the CG rendering technology is also improving becoming cheaper to to do but I don't want them to do any new CG if it is not up to the scale of XI Enterprise, so it may take a few more years to see any remastered TNG.
 
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