Do you think Kirk was made captain early

[SilentP]

The Enterprise is the Flagship, isn't it? Who's to say that Admiral Pike doesn't have an office onboard the ship to keep an eye on everything while Kirk captains the ship? That is how it's done on a flagship, isn't it?

Actually a good point, flag ships generally have flag officers on board, so the Enterprise in previous incarnations is an oddity here (though I'd say most captains would defer to the flag captain in any instance where multiple ships are on the scene). Aren't ship operations aboard flagships left to the flag captain, while the admiral concentrates his mind/efforts on running and commanding the fleet in any endevour and just uses the ship to fly his flag?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Here's a thought. The film could have given Kirk the *position* of Captain, but not the actual *rank*. (At first I thought this was what actually happened, but his uniform sleeve stripes proved otherwise.)

Assuming Kirk graduated as a Lieutenant, the writers could have had him receive a battlefield promotion to Lieutenant Commander. Starfleet could still have put him in the center seat while Pike recovers. As the ship's commanding officer, Kirk would then be called Captain at all times (regardless of rank).

 

[Brutal Strudel]

If we see Pike at all in the next film, he'll be the Admiral character who gives Kirk orders over the viewscreen, like Komack in TOS and, variously, Admirals Harve "Bob" Bennett and Janeway in the movies. It's Kirk's ship, that's all but certain.

 

[barnaclelapse]

No, I don't. I'll never for the life of me understand why some people have a problem with this.

Whiny slugs.

 

[EnsignRicky]

I think a lot of things in this movie happened early and conveniently. But hey, that's Hollywood.

 

[Jeyl]

NuKirk is NOT Captain material.

Case 1: Does not collaborate with crew
As the Kobayashi Maru simulator shows, Kirk does not let his crew in on what is transpiring. He keeps everyone in the dark before and during the simulation and does not explain nor discuss what his tactics were for beating the "no-win" scenario when the test is done. Not only does he enjoy this, he down right defends himself and proclaims himself the sole beater of the simulation ("I beat your test" instead of "We beat your test"). As a lot of good Star Trek Captains have shown, involving your crew in on your command decisions is not only a good thing, but essential. Remember the briefing rooms? The fact that the film glorifies Kirk's actions as something that was the right thing to do just makes it worse.

Case 2: Giving bada** orders
One of these things is not like the other thing. One of these things just doesn't belong.
Captain Robau:If I don't return in 15 minutes, evacuate the crew.
Captain Pike: If I don't make it back, take the Enterprise and rendezvous with the fleet.
Captain Kirk: If you get a shot, you fire on that ship.

.......What? We're dealing with a highly advanced ship that's capable of destroying fleets of ships without so much as breaking a sweat, and your best idea is to just fire on it? I think a good captain would assume that the 47 Klingon ships which were destroyed by the Narada didn't go down without a fight, but you probably thought it would be bada** just to say "You fire on them!". Way to needlessly endanger your crew's lives Captain.

Case 3: Needlessly destroying a doomed enemy vessel
Yep, going to go with this again. If a ship is doomed (Kirk says it himself: "Too close to the singularity to SURVIVE without assistance") and they don't want to be rescued, what's the point of firing on them if they're all going to die anyway? I seriously doubt that if a BLACK HOLE is eating the Narada from the INSIDE that the ship will somehow miraculously come out of it in one piece. And to make matters worse, after the ship is consumed with the Enterprise just standing there, it gets caught in the black hole! So Kirk needlessly endangers his crew just because he wanted to shoot at someone who was already going to die anyways.

 

[SilentP]

NuKirk is NOT Captain material.

Case 1: Does not collaborate with crew
As the Kobayashi Maru simulator shows, Kirk does not let his crew in on what is transpiring. He keeps everyone in the dark before and during the simulation and does not explain nor discuss what his tactics were for beating the "no-win" scenario when the test is done. Not only does he enjoy this, he down right defends himself and proclaims himself the sole beater of the simulation ("I beat your test" instead of "We beat your test"). As a lot of good Star Trek Captains have shown, involving your crew in on your command decisions is not only a good thing, but essential. Remember the briefing rooms? The fact that the film glorifies Kirk's actions as something that was the right thing to do just makes it worse.

This is the third time he's doing the test, this time with the intention of breaking the test, in such a blatant manner to have it brought it up so he can challenge it. The previous two times he probably was doing his damndest to win 'properly', i.e. getting advice from his crew, before clicking after the second attempt that the test is intentionally rigged, hence his third 'attempt'.

Case 2: Giving bada** orders

One of these things is not like the other thing. One of these things just doesn't belong.
Captain Robau:If I don't return in 15 minutes, evacuate the crew.
Captain Pike: If I don't make it back, take the Enterprise and rendezvous with the fleet.
Captain Kirk: If you get a shot, you fire on that ship.

.......What? We're dealing with a highly advanced ship that's capable of destroying fleets of ships without so much as breaking a sweat, and your best idea is to just fire on it? I think a good captain would assume that the 47 Klingon ships which were destroyed by the Narada didn't go down without a fight, but you probably thought it would be bada** just to say "You fire on them!". Way to needlessly endanger your crew's lives Captain.

Kirk is the more aggresive (probably youthful brashness) of the 3 captains you've shown here, so it's not a surprising order. Also, since the Narada is definitely over the Earth, as opposed to possibly will go after Earth, so Kirk is likely to want the Enterprise to do it's best to interfere with the Narada's assault, on the off chance it will prevent it succeeding, or at least delay it (it may be possible they did get off a communication to the primary fleet, but the Enterprise had a larger headstart).

Case 3: Needlessly destroying a doomed enemy vessel

Yep, going to go with this again. If a ship is doomed (Kirk says it himself: "Too close to the singularity to SURVIVE without assistance") and they don't want to be rescued, what's the point of firing on them if they're all going to die anyway? I seriously doubt that if a BLACK HOLE is eating the Narada from the INSIDE that the ship will somehow miraculously come out of it in one piece. And to make matters worse, after the ship is consumed with the Enterprise just standing there, it gets caught in the black hole! So Kirk needlessly endangers his crew just because he wanted to shoot at someone who was already going to die anyways.

Considering he doesnt ask for confirmation from anyone on the sensors he may of been wrong about the ship surviving (but that's a stretch), but perhaps he just wants to be sure that the ship doesn't survive. Hate to leave a job half finished and then sometime later, the Narada comes back to haunt his lack of thoroughness.

 

[neozeks]

Actually a good point, flag ships generally have flag officers on board, so the Enterprise in previous incarnations is an oddity here (though I'd say most captains would defer to the flag captain in any instance where multiple ships are on the scene). Aren't ship operations aboard flagships left to the flag captain, while the admiral concentrates his mind/efforts on running and commanding the fleet in any endevour and just uses the ship to fly his flag?

I think there is a difference between how the term 'flagship' is used in Star trek and in the real world. In real navies it does mean 'the ship from which an admiral commands his fleet'. But in Star Trek usage it seems to simply mean 'the best, most famous ship, pride of the Fleet'. Like how some commercial ships are called the flagships of their companies.

 

[Jeyl]

The previous two times he probably was doing his damndest to win 'properly', i.e. getting advice from his crew, before clicking after the second attempt that the test is intentionally rigged, hence his third 'attempt'.

So, the moral is if you don't succeed, don't involve anyone else? That's not a Captain's way dealing with situations. And why would a Captain withhold information on how he conquered a task? You think it's good for a Captain to withhold vital information regarding his actions at a debriefing?

Hate to leave a job half finished and then sometime later, the Narada comes back to haunt his lack of thoroughness.

And what would the Narada do honestly? Destroy another planet? They're freaking useless without their red matter. And remember how the Enterprise blasted every single Torpedo that it fired at Spock's ship? So if Torpedoes aren't a problem and there's no red matter to destroy planets, what possible danger is there that the Narada can inflict that would justify it's destroying it when it's already doomed?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Hate to leave a job half finished and then sometime later, the Narada comes back to haunt his lack of thoroughness.

And what would the Narada do honestly? Destroy another planet? They're freaking useless without their red matter.

The Narada might have been sucked through the black hole again and appeared somewhere else. Who knows what kind of damage it could do then. It still had powerful weaponry, even without the red matter.

 

[startrekrcks]

well why did they want Kirk to become captain it was his destiny

 

[SilentP]

The previous two times he probably was doing his damndest to win 'properly', i.e. getting advice from his crew, before clicking after the second attempt that the test is intentionally rigged, hence his third 'attempt'.

So, the moral is if you don't succeed, don't involve anyone else? That's not a Captain's way dealing with situations. And why would a Captain withhold information on how he conquered a task? You think it's good for a Captain to withhold vital information regarding his actions at a debriefing?

OK, you've lost me here. Either I didn't make myself clear enough, you didn't make yourself clear, or you've missed my point entirely.

1st attempt: Kirk fails, as does everyone else. However, he doesn't just accept this, probably thinking there must have been something he had missed. Note how McCoy said that no-one reattempts the Kobayashi Maru, let alone twice.

2nd attempt: Kirk fails again, as the test intends him to do, and begins to think that the test is rigged. He begins to plan to 'defeat' the test so he can call the instructors on it, since he doesn't believe that it should be an impossible test, or as Spock had said, 'had failed to divine the nature of the test'.

3rd attempt: Cheats so blatantly that he'll be caught, so he can publicly rail against what he thinks is a ridiculous test.

 

[Captain Pike]

That Kirk was made captain early is beyond debate. What the title should be asking is "Do you think Kirk was made captain too early?"

And yes, it was too early and it was contrived, but then so much of fiction is, by it's nature, contrived.

If it was me doing the film, Kirk wouldn't have become captain until the 2nd or third movie - after a good stint or two on starships Republic & Farragut. But then again, the movie may not have been such a hit with the general public if they just had Lt. Kirk in the first chapter so...

Like others, I think the film as it stands could have been much improved by the addition of a "x years later" subtitle before we see him granted the rank of full captain at the end of the film.

Regardless, I may have rolled my eyes at the time a little, but it certainly didn't ruin the movie for me.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

No, I don't. I'll never for the life of me understand why some people have a problem with this.

Whiny slugs.

Because it was plot point worthy of Bucky Buckson, Space Rocketeer ratherthan Star Trek. I guess one man's "whiny slug" is another man's "fan with a modicum of intellect and critical thinking skills."

Once again, any serious criticism of this film is greeted with sheer contempt. Against expectations, I liked the film but my opinion of its TrekBBS cheering section hasn't changed one bit.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I do concede that a "three years later" (or however much time) might have created a slight problem, i.e. what happened during the intervening time.

But my other suggestion, about promoting Kirk to the next higher rank (Lieutenant Commander) but still granting him the position of captain, I don't see *any* problem with that. You could even throw in a simple line of dialogue that makes it clear that Lt. Cmdr. Kirk must still be called Captain. (They did that easily enough on DS9, with Jadzia.)

 

[Sector 7]

No, I don't. I'll never for the life of me understand why some people have a problem with this.

Whiny slugs.

Because it was plot point worthy of Bucky Buckson, Space Rocketeer ratherthan Star Trek. I guess one man's "whiny slug" is another man's "fan with a modicum of intellect and critical thinking skills."

Once again, any serious criticism of this film is greeted with sheer contempt. Against expectations, I liked the film but my opinion of its TrekBBS cheering section hasn't changed one bit.

I love the movie. I can also discuss some of its shortcomings. The problem, for me, is those who bash anyone who liked the movie at all. Some are just showing up in threads to say, "It's stupid and so is anyone who likes it," rather than contribute to the discussion.
Yes, it has flaws... yes, it is good to point them out and suggest improvements. No, it is NOT OK to simply resort to name-calling.

 

[enan]

First let me say I liked the movie so much I saw it three times.

There is a real world precedent

George Armstrong Custer

His class at West Point was graduated early due to the start of the Civil War
In 1862 he was commissioned as a 2nd Lt, then on June 28th 1863 Custer was promoted from 1st Lt to Brigadier General and given command of a cavalry brigade, even though he had no command experience. So in the space of a year or so he went from a Cadet to a General.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Somehow I don't think Custer would be the best example to use...

And in any case, I thought his actual rank was Lieutenant Colonel or something?

 

[enan]

He was a captain until late 1862 when he was demoted to 1st Lt. he became the protege of Major General Pleasanton who was a cavalry division commander, i don't know if Custer knew that his rank of general was not permanent, but he did lead his troops to victory in the Battle of Gettysburg. He was the youngest General in the Union Army at the age of 23.

 

[SilentP]

No, I don't. I'll never for the life of me understand why some people have a problem with this.

Whiny slugs.

Because it was plot point worthy of Bucky Buckson, Space Rocketeer ratherthan Star Trek. I guess one man's "whiny slug" is another man's "fan with a modicum of intellect and critical thinking skills."

Once again, any serious criticism of this film is greeted with sheer contempt. Against expectations, I liked the film but my opinion of its TrekBBS cheering section hasn't changed one bit.

I love the movie. I can also discuss some of its shortcomings. The problem, for me, is those who bash anyone who liked the movie at all. Some are just showing up in threads to say, "It's stupid and so is anyone who likes it," rather than contribute to the discussion.
Yes, it has flaws... yes, it is good to point them out and suggest improvements. No, it is NOT OK to simply resort to name-calling.

QFT.

I'll admit when I saw it at the time, seeing him get the Captaincy of the Enterprise so fast surprised me (with me thinking 'well that was a bit quick'), but I just got on with it, as I did with some of the other quibbles I had with the movie ('There's always a bigger fish' anyone?). You know, it's fiction, and there are sometimes going to be things that don't make sense. Didn't ruin it for me not to see it again a few times.

It's literally how vitriolic some of the posters on the board are being about the movie and in being determined to bash every single little thing. They suck out the enjoyment I had watching the film more than a red matter singularity Beginning to think I must be masochistic to keep arguing with them.