What Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode should be stricken from canon?

[Michael]

Re: What Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode should be stricken from ca

That writer should of been fired and kicked in the balls.

Who would have been the new executive producer then?

Someone who wouldn't go out of their way to ruin Dukat as a character.

What does Ron Moore have to do with it?

 

[Bones2]

Re: What Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode should be stricken from ca

I was talking about Ira Steven Behr.

 

[Michael]

Re: What Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode should be stricken from ca

I was talking about Ira Steven Behr.

Yeah, I know. Hence my question: What does the writer of Waltz – the episode that, according to many, ruined the character of Dukat – has to do with the writer of Let He Who Is Without Sin ... ?

 

[Damask]

Re: What Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode should be stricken from ca

Only two come to mind. If Wishes Were Horses (geez, I want that hour back!)

But that's where Sisko gets his baseball from!

 

[DevilEyes]

Re: What Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode should be stricken from ca

I was talking about Ira Steven Behr.

Yeah, I know. Hence my question: What does the writer of Waltz – the episode that, according to many, ruined the character of Dukat – has to do with the writer of Let He Who Is Without Sin ... ?

Waltz didn't ruin him - the ending was bad, but since these were just lunatic ravings, he was still salveagable at this point - but the Pah-wraiths storyline did; and even if you think Waltz ruined him, everybody knows that ISB, sa the showrunner, was the one who was calling the shots when it comes to the storyline of Dukat (and Behr's own comments confirm that 100%).

TV writing does not work the way you seem to imply - a writer who is credited for an individual episode does not have the power to decide what happens in it and what the overall storyline is, that depends on the entire team of writers, with the showrunner having the most authority to decide which storylines and twists will happen and which will not. Ron Moore's task, in this case, was just to give shape to a storyline that Behr approved (and very likely devised himself).

In other words, you can blame or give credit to everything on BSG, whether Ron Moore wrote an episode or not, because he had his hands in every one of them or at least approved them; but on DS9, that role belonged to Ira Steven Behr, not Moore.

 

[Michael]

Re: What Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode should be stricken from ca

I was talking about Ira Steven Behr.

Yeah, I know. Hence my question: What does the writer of Waltz – the episode that, according to many, ruined the character of Dukat – has to do with the writer of Let He Who Is Without Sin ... ?

Waltz didn't ruin him - the ending was bad, but since these were just lunatic ravings, he was still salveagable at this point - but the Pah-wraiths storyline did; and even if you think Waltz ruined him, everybody knows that ISB, sa the showrunner, was the one who was calling the shots when it comes to the storyline of Dukat (and Behr's own comments confirm that 100%).

TV writing does not work the way you seem to imply - a writer who is credited for an individual episode does not have the power to decide what happens in it and what the overall storyline is, that depends on the entire team of writers, with the showrunner having the most authority to decide which storylines and twists will happen and which will not. Ron Moore's task, in this case, was just to give shape to a storyline that Behr approved (and very likely devised himself).

In other words, you can blame or give credit to everything on BSG, whether Ron Moore wrote an episode or not, because he had his hands in every one of them or at least approved them; but on DS9, that role belonged to Ira Steven Behr, not Moore.

Wow, everyone is taking me way too seriously today. That just happened in another thread, too.

I know very well that television writers don't single-handedly decide on the future of storylines and individual characters. Actually it was Mr. Scott who made that assertion in his ealier post and I was just going along with it – jokingly so; trying to make exactly the point you are making in your post: You can't always blame (or praise) the writer of an episode for its content.

On another note, I certainly don't think Gul Dukat's character was ever ruined! Neither in Waltz nor in any of the other following episodes. (Waltz is actually one of my favorite episodes!) USS Bones was talking about how Dukat was ruined and I assumed he/she meant Waltz, since this is the episode most often cited as the one where his character went in the wrong direction. But I didn't say I agreed with this.

 

[Bones2]

Re: What Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode should be stricken from ca

I was refering to the whole pah-wraith arc, for which ISB seems more responsible than anyone.

 

[Mirror_Barclay]

Re: What Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode should be stricken from ca

I was refering to the whole pah-wraith arc, for which ISB seems more responsible than anyone.

Good choice for what to get rid of.

In addition to ruining Dukat, it was just silly, and not in a good way.

 

[TS-1838-SWATH]

Re: What Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode should be stricken from ca

I adore the Kira and her Cardassian dad episodes. Adore them. One of the many highlights of DS9. So I gotta disagree with you most emphatically, Teutonic.

CHEERS CHEERS and MORE CHEERS

I wish that HAD MADE her a Cardassian In Second Skin

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Re: What Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode should be stricken from ca

Come to think of it, I would probably selectively drop any reference to Sisko being the Emissary of the Prophets. It was something so under-used that I kept forgetting about it until some Bajoran supernumerary made a reference to it in some emissary-centric episode; we might as well de-canonize all of them anyway.

I mean, isn't the Emissary supposed to be, basically, the supreme spiritual figure of the Bajoran religion? That should have implications on his relationship with his Bajoran staff far more visible than what we saw... unless, of course, most Bajorans are actually atheists who go to temple once a week just because they're bored.

 

[Damask]

Re: What Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode should be stricken from ca

I mean, isn't the Emissary supposed to be, basically, the supreme spiritual figure of the Bajoran religion? That should have implications on his relationship with his Bajoran staff far more visible than what we saw... unless, of course, most Bajorans are actually atheists who go to temple once a week just because they're bored.

Accession is basically all about this. Sisko never took an active role in being the Emissary before then. Kira even told him that Bajorans would have tried to do everything they could if Sisko had asked them.

After Acession we start to see Sisko fully accept his role, direct the Bajoran government not to join the Federation, accept a peace treaty with the Dominion etc.

It's not like every Bajoran would have to start bowing once they came within 10 feet of him.

 

[Danoz]

Re: What Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode should be stricken from ca

Got to be all of the parallel universise episodes .They were a waste and ones I always skip.

Yeah agreed. They don't make any sense. If the universe were that radically different it's impossible that the same people would have met and been born/mated in the same way. I understand that Star Trek likes to operate under the limitless number of universes theory-- but I've never been a fan of those story archs.

Anyway, I could have done without the love triangle episode where O'Brien and Kira have a one-episode-long soap opera tension-- or the whole deal with a confused Dax screwing Worf (literally) and then ending up with Julian into a rushed annoying relationship.

 

[Mike Have-Not]

Re: What Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode should be stricken from ca

Great topic, I am re-watching all the DS9's now. For me, I wish I could erase Bashir being genetically engineered. I guess that would require removing a string of episodes. It just never sat well with me that he could compute things almost as fast as a computer and hit the bulls eye everytime in darts. It removed some of the charm of his character, making it seem like he really never earned his great success as a doctor.

It also made me question why there were never hints of his extreme intellect throughout the first 4 or 5 seasons. There is one episode in the 3rd season I think where he is nervous to meet the female doctor who beat him on the final Doctor/Starfleet exams. If he knew that he was super smart, and that he got the question wrong on purpose, why would he react the way he did in that episode (wish I could remember the eps name)?

Bashir relates his exam story in both Q-Less & Distant Voices.

The Doctor visits the station in Explorers.

I always thought his nerves in meeting her had nothing to do with the exams but more of a Bashir is useless around women thing which was a fairly long running plot thread.

I found his genetic engineering fit in incredibly well for his character. It explains his cockyness (as he really is better than everyone else), brash self absorbed attitude he had in the early seasons really well.

I also finds it fits in with his inability to relate to people, as a lot of bright intelligent people don't grasp social nuances which most people take for granted. Social skills I guess is also something which can't be genetically enhanced so it makes sense that that's his biggest failing.

And I'm not sure I understand how he doesn't deserve his success as a doctor. That's almost like saying a good 100m runner doesn't deserve his success as they're only good due to his good genes, or tall basketballers. They've still put in all the work but as in some cases people do start with an advantage.

And it lead to the Jack Pack episodes, which I liked, especially "Statistical Probabilities", one of my favorite Bashir-centric episodes besides the Section 31 episodes, and the episode with the Jem'Hadars (The Hippocratic Oath).

I wasn't sure what to make of the genetically engineered plot when it was first introduced, but then I liked it because it contributed to finally making Bashir more interesting and giving him interesting storylines, beyond being a foil to Garak.

:-o I'm watching "Statistical Probababilites" right as I'm reading this!

What are the odds?

I, for one, like the Jack pack episodes AND Bashir's genetic enhancement storyline.

Just opinion, I guess.

I also like the Ferengi episodes and "Take Me Out to the Holosuite". Go figure.

I guess there aren't any episodes I would want stricken from Canon. The last ep. I watched, with the mirror Bareil WAS pretty boring and pointless, though. Ha!

 

[Bones2]

Re: What Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode should be stricken from ca

I guess there aren't any episodes I would want stricken from Canon. The last ep. I watched, with the mirror Bareil WAS pretty boring and pointless, though. Ha!

God yes. A long dead character no one cared about is different in the mirror universe. In fact, I'd rate that as one of the worst episodes.

 

[DevilEyes]

Re: What Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode should be stricken from ca

I guess there aren't any episodes I would want stricken from Canon. The last ep. I watched, with the mirror Bareil WAS pretty boring and pointless, though. Ha!

God yes. A long dead character no one cared about is different in the mirror universe. In fact, I'd rate that as one of the worst episodes.

I doubt that nobody cared about Bareil - if that had been the case, I don't believe that the episode would have ever been made at all. From what I've heard, Bareil was a fairly popular character, and according to Rene Auberjonois:
http://www.littlereview.com/getcritical/trektalk/auberj2.htm

According to producer Ron Moore's posts on America Online, the fans played a significant role in the development of Odo in the final seasons, first protesting when the changeling was turned into a human being, then lobbying to pair Kira and Odo as a romantic couple after years of indications that Odo was in love with the first officer.
"There was a huge lobby for Kira and Bareil, and Kira and Dukat, and even Kira and Damar," Auberjonois laughs. "People get passionate. I have a core group of fans, the Rene Auberjonois Information List, it's called RAIL, and there's ORACLE, which is the fan club, and there's a web page. We are still very much involved with raising money for different charities, primarily Doctors Without Borders. With their incredible energy and organization, we have raised thousands and thousands of dollars for that charity and others. So I continue to remain involved. If conventions raise money for charity, that's a good reason to do them."

So, it seems like "Resurrection" was nothing more than throwing a bone to a group of fans (before finally getting Kira with Odo... and didn't they also plan to have some sort of affair between Kira and Dukat at some point in season 6, which Nana Visitor objected to, so they changed it to Dukat/Kira's mom? I guess they were ready to throw bones to just about every section of fandom...)

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

Re: What Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode should be stricken from ca

So, it seems like "Resurrection" was nothing more than throwing a bone to a group of fans (before finally getting Kira with Odo... and didn't they also plan to have some sort of affair between Kira and Dukat at some point in season 6, which Nana Visitor objected to, so they changed it to Dukat/Kira's mom? I guess they were ready to throw bones to just about every section of fandom...)

They'd included a comment from Gul Dukat in Season 3's 'Civil Defense' about Kira, implying his interest in her, and it was used as a moment of levity in a tense situation. Nana was upset because, in-universe, not even three years prior, if Dukat had wanted Kira, he would have had her, and her opinion would not have counted for anything. But yeah, I think they did keep trying for a hook-up and Nana told them flat out 'NO' every time. Good thing, too - IMO, it would not have made sense, given that to the Bajorans, Dukat is Hitler, and there is no way that someone as fiercely loyal to Bajor as Kira would ever let herself even think about falling for Dukat. She could work alongside him, and she can agree to disagree with him, but at the end of the day, to the Bajoran people, Dukat is still a monster.

 

[DevilEyes]

Re: What Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode should be stricken from ca

So, it seems like "Resurrection" was nothing more than throwing a bone to a group of fans (before finally getting Kira with Odo... and didn't they also plan to have some sort of affair between Kira and Dukat at some point in season 6, which Nana Visitor objected to, so they changed it to Dukat/Kira's mom? I guess they were ready to throw bones to just about every section of fandom...)

They'd included a comment from Gul Dukat in Season 3's 'Civil Defense' about Kira, implying his interest in her, and it was used as a moment of levity in a tense situation. Nana was upset because, in-universe, not even three years prior, if Dukat had wanted Kira, he would have had her, and her opinion would not have counted for anything. But yeah, I think they did keep trying for a hook-up and Nana told them flat out 'NO' every time. Good thing, too - IMO, it would not have made sense, given that to the Bajorans, Dukat is Hitler, and there is no way that someone as fiercely loyal to Bajor as Kira would ever let herself even think about falling for Dukat. She could work alongside him, and she can agree to disagree with him, but at the end of the day, to the Bajoran people, Dukat is still a monster.

The thing that really makes me wonder is how to reconcile Ira Steven Behr's attempt to have a Kira/Dukat hookup, with his very well known views about Dukat and his attempts to turn him into a one-dimensional villain. Mind boggles. We can be pretty sure that they were not going to go for any kind of redemptive angle for Dukat, since Behr would have hated it, so all I can think of is that it would have ended up being some sort of cautionary tale... and I don't think I would have liked what that would have done to the character of Kira, as a strong, intelligent and principled woman that we know.

 

[JarodRussell]

Re: What Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode should be stricken from ca

Most of the episodes mentioned here don't even have an impact on canon (i.e. no effects on later episodes, they are simply forgotten about), so why remove them?

I'd rather remove Jadzia's death and forget about all the Ezri Dax plotlines in season 7.