What Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode should be stricken from canon?
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Re: What Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode should be stricken from ca
Great topic, I am re-watching all the DS9's now. For me, I wish I could erase Bashir being genetically engineered. I guess that would require removing a string of episodes. It just never sat well with me that he could compute things almost as fast as a computer and hit the bulls eye everytime in darts. It removed some of the charm of his character, making it seem like he really never earned his great success as a doctor.
It also made me question why there were never hints of his extreme intellect throughout the first 4 or 5 seasons. There is one episode in the 3rd season I think where he is nervous to meet the female doctor who beat him on the final Doctor/Starfleet exams. If he knew that he was super smart, and that he got the question wrong on purpose, why would he react the way he did in that episode (wish I could remember the eps name)?
Great topic, I am re-watching all the DS9's now. For me, I wish I could erase Bashir being genetically engineered. I guess that would require removing a string of episodes. It just never sat well with me that he could compute things almost as fast as a computer and hit the bulls eye everytime in darts. It removed some of the charm of his character, making it seem like he really never earned his great success as a doctor.
It also made me question why there were never hints of his extreme intellect throughout the first 4 or 5 seasons. There is one episode in the 3rd season I think where he is nervous to meet the female doctor who beat him on the final Doctor/Starfleet exams. If he knew that he was super smart, and that he got the question wrong on purpose, why would he react the way he did in that episode (wish I could remember the eps name)?
Re: What Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode should be stricken from ca
Got to be all of the parallel universise episodes .They were a waste and ones I always skip.
Got to be all of the parallel universise episodes .They were a waste and ones I always skip.
Re: What Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode should be stricken from ca
Bashir relates his exam story in both Q-Less & Distant Voices.
The Doctor visits the station in Explorers.
I always thought his nerves in meeting her had nothing to do with the exams but more of a Bashir is useless around women thing which was a fairly long running plot thread.
I found his genetic engineering fit in incredibly well for his character. It explains his cockyness (as he really is better than everyone else), brash self absorbed attitude he had in the early seasons really well.
I also finds it fits in with his inability to relate to people, as a lot of bright intelligent people don't grasp social nuances which most people take for granted. Social skills I guess is also something which can't be genetically enhanced so it makes sense that that's his biggest failing.
And I'm not sure I understand how he doesn't deserve his success as a doctor. That's almost like saying a good 100m runner doesn't deserve his success as they're only good due to his good genes, or tall basketballers. They've still put in all the work but as in some cases people do start with an advantage.
Bashir relates his exam story in both Q-Less & Distant Voices.
The Doctor visits the station in Explorers.
I always thought his nerves in meeting her had nothing to do with the exams but more of a Bashir is useless around women thing which was a fairly long running plot thread.
I found his genetic engineering fit in incredibly well for his character. It explains his cockyness (as he really is better than everyone else), brash self absorbed attitude he had in the early seasons really well.
I also finds it fits in with his inability to relate to people, as a lot of bright intelligent people don't grasp social nuances which most people take for granted. Social skills I guess is also something which can't be genetically enhanced so it makes sense that that's his biggest failing.
And I'm not sure I understand how he doesn't deserve his success as a doctor. That's almost like saying a good 100m runner doesn't deserve his success as they're only good due to his good genes, or tall basketballers. They've still put in all the work but as in some cases people do start with an advantage.
Re: What Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode should be stricken from ca
I wasn't sure what to make of the genetically engineered plot when it was first introduced, but then I liked it because it contributed to finally making Bashir more interesting and giving him interesting storylines, beyond being a foil to Garak.
And it lead to the Jack Pack episodes, which I liked, especially "Statistical Probabilities", one of my favorite Bashir-centric episodes besides the Section 31 episodes, and the episode with the Jem'Hadars (The Hippocratic Oath).
I wasn't sure what to make of the genetically engineered plot when it was first introduced, but then I liked it because it contributed to finally making Bashir more interesting and giving him interesting storylines, beyond being a foil to Garak.
Re: What Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode should be stricken from ca
He was gentically engineered, not born with those genes like a good runner or scientist. So in some ways, he doesn't deserve it (thats the prime topic of the ep with his parents and probably why he feels somewhat ashamed by what they did). And again, his inability to relate to people in the early seasons was likely written only because he was a brilliant scientist, and was a character element that didn't require him to be genetically engineered. I find him more interesting as just a geeky science type like myself
. The way he just starts throwing out rapid computations at the end of the series seemed stupid to me for some reason (made him seem more Vulcan or like data), took away from the character who I thought reflected many hard working scientists/doctors.
He was gentically engineered, not born with those genes like a good runner or scientist. So in some ways, he doesn't deserve it (thats the prime topic of the ep with his parents and probably why he feels somewhat ashamed by what they did). And again, his inability to relate to people in the early seasons was likely written only because he was a brilliant scientist, and was a character element that didn't require him to be genetically engineered. I find him more interesting as just a geeky science type like myself
. The way he just starts throwing out rapid computations at the end of the series seemed stupid to me for some reason (made him seem more Vulcan or like data), took away from the character who I thought reflected many hard working scientists/doctors.
Re: What Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode should be stricken from ca
^ He never seemed like the hard-working type. He seemed like someone who has always been successful because of his natural talents and intelligence (which did not translate to social skills, though), never had to work for it, and he was a bit green and annoying as a result.
The difference is that we eventually found out that his talents were not natural, but a result of genetic engineering, and he had actually initially gotten quite a raw deal by birth. I bet nobody expected that, and I bet that nobody expected him to be from what we would call a lower class background (did anyone expect his father to be a Cockney-accented loser?), although I don't know how this translates to the 24th Federation society. This actually made him and his background a lot more interesting. As for what he deserved... well, he never chose to be genetically altered, did he? So, either way, if a person deserves only a success they have worked for, he wouldn't have deserved it either way: being born talented and with a high IQ, or having gotten it due to his parents' decision, it was completely out of his own hands in both cases. The only difference is that he lied and kept a secret - but knowing what the status of genetically altered people was in the society (and that he would also have gotten his parents in trouble and probably in jail), I can't really blame him.
^ He never seemed like the hard-working type. He seemed like someone who has always been successful because of his natural talents and intelligence (which did not translate to social skills, though), never had to work for it, and he was a bit green and annoying as a result.
The difference is that we eventually found out that his talents were not natural, but a result of genetic engineering, and he had actually initially gotten quite a raw deal by birth. I bet nobody expected that, and I bet that nobody expected him to be from what we would call a lower class background (did anyone expect his father to be a Cockney-accented loser?), although I don't know how this translates to the 24th Federation society. This actually made him and his background a lot more interesting. As for what he deserved... well, he never chose to be genetically altered, did he? So, either way, if a person deserves only a success they have worked for, he wouldn't have deserved it either way: being born talented and with a high IQ, or having gotten it due to his parents' decision, it was completely out of his own hands in both cases. The only difference is that he lied and kept a secret - but knowing what the status of genetically altered people was in the society (and that he would also have gotten his parents in trouble and probably in jail), I can't really blame him.
Re: What Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode should be stricken from ca
Pretty much how I feel. Even some of the episodes I've least enjoyed have added something useful to the universe.
Pretty much how I feel. Even some of the episodes I've least enjoyed have added something useful to the universe.
Re: What Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode should be stricken from ca
The Emperor's New Cloak. It's not that it's a bad episode, actually, I rather enjoy the comedy, its just the previous mirror episodes were much more serious and epic, and there were so many more things that could have been done with the mirror universe, that to waste the last one on a Ferengi comedy episode seems pointless. Actually, a revamped Emperor's New Cloak could include things such as making Mirror Jake turn up and to the same thing to Prime Jake as MU Ezri did to Quark, with some changes to allow for character. I know MU Jake doesn't exist, as per Shattered Mirror, but they could use this opportunity to explain how the Mirror Universe manages to make people with exact DNA copies of their prime universe even when its been around for hundreds of years, such as, when a person in the prime universe is born, a mirror counterpart is created spontaneously, without help from parents if they aren't available. MU Jake just might not have had any contact with his parents, so Jennifer didn't know she had a son, and maybe wasn't aware of this working of the universe either. Either that, or some other way to work Jake into the Mirror story, his abandonment in Season 7 is one of my few criticisms of that season. Better than the Ferengi episode anyway.
Anyway, as much as I hate Meridian, I still think that it and the rest of the DS9 episodes are fine to exist in canonical harmony.
The Emperor's New Cloak. It's not that it's a bad episode, actually, I rather enjoy the comedy, its just the previous mirror episodes were much more serious and epic, and there were so many more things that could have been done with the mirror universe, that to waste the last one on a Ferengi comedy episode seems pointless. Actually, a revamped Emperor's New Cloak could include things such as making Mirror Jake turn up and to the same thing to Prime Jake as MU Ezri did to Quark, with some changes to allow for character. I know MU Jake doesn't exist, as per Shattered Mirror, but they could use this opportunity to explain how the Mirror Universe manages to make people with exact DNA copies of their prime universe even when its been around for hundreds of years, such as, when a person in the prime universe is born, a mirror counterpart is created spontaneously, without help from parents if they aren't available. MU Jake just might not have had any contact with his parents, so Jennifer didn't know she had a son, and maybe wasn't aware of this working of the universe either. Either that, or some other way to work Jake into the Mirror story, his abandonment in Season 7 is one of my few criticisms of that season. Better than the Ferengi episode anyway.
Anyway, as much as I hate Meridian, I still think that it and the rest of the DS9 episodes are fine to exist in canonical harmony.
Re: What Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode should be stricken from ca
A whole whackload of them should. One to de-canonize is not nearly enough. DS9 has 5 or 6 totally unwatchable episodes from every single season, all of which should be de-canonized.
Ie: Dramatis Personae, If Wishes Were Horses, Melora, Fascination, Dax, Time's Orphan, The Assignment, Resurrection, Invasive Procedures, Sanctuary, Prodigal Daughter, Chrysalis, Second Sight, every single one of the MU episodes, Starship Down, The Darkness and the Light, Rejoined, The Sword of Kahless, You Are Cordially Invited, Badda Bing Badda Bang, Q-Less, Field of Fire, and many others too.
A whole whackload of them should. One to de-canonize is not nearly enough. DS9 has 5 or 6 totally unwatchable episodes from every single season, all of which should be de-canonized.
Ie: Dramatis Personae, If Wishes Were Horses, Melora, Fascination, Dax, Time's Orphan, The Assignment, Resurrection, Invasive Procedures, Sanctuary, Prodigal Daughter, Chrysalis, Second Sight, every single one of the MU episodes, Starship Down, The Darkness and the Light, Rejoined, The Sword of Kahless, You Are Cordially Invited, Badda Bing Badda Bang, Q-Less, Field of Fire, and many others too.
Re: What Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode should be stricken from ca
I don't know about decanonizing, but the following should not have existed, making DS9 even more awesome.
- all of MU except crossover.
Because it was a good idea, but with a bad execution which got worse and worse. Also a horrible waste of excellent FX.
Also the eps
- Where Zek makes Rom Nagus
- Where Quark dresses as a woman.
Because first they make the Ferengi cool and then they destroy them again by making Quark's mom change the society overnight (and Quark and Brunt obviously the only ones opposed to it?). They could have done this in a better way, show it to be a result of the war etc.
And:
Time's orphan, Brigadoon, chrysalis, Fascination and Move along Home (just to be sure). The rest is more or less fine.
Oh and those Kira-and-her-Cardie-dad episodes. They suck.
I don't know about decanonizing, but the following should not have existed, making DS9 even more awesome.
- all of MU except crossover.
Because it was a good idea, but with a bad execution which got worse and worse. Also a horrible waste of excellent FX.
Also the eps
- Where Zek makes Rom Nagus
- Where Quark dresses as a woman.
Because first they make the Ferengi cool and then they destroy them again by making Quark's mom change the society overnight (and Quark and Brunt obviously the only ones opposed to it?). They could have done this in a better way, show it to be a result of the war etc.
And:
Time's orphan, Brigadoon, chrysalis, Fascination and Move along Home (just to be sure). The rest is more or less fine.
Oh and those Kira-and-her-Cardie-dad episodes. They suck.
Re: What Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode should be stricken from ca
Q-Less. OK, Sisko punching Q was kind of cool, but Q and Vash showing up and taking over the episode was far too TNG, much as I love that series.
Q-Less. OK, Sisko punching Q was kind of cool, but Q and Vash showing up and taking over the episode was far too TNG, much as I love that series.
Re: What Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode should be stricken from ca
No way! Losing Second Skin would make DS9 approximately 10% less awesome!
No way! Losing Second Skin would make DS9 approximately 10% less awesome!
Re: What Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode should be stricken from ca
I think "Second Skin" and "Ties of Blood and Water" are among the highlights of the series.
I too must disagree with you.
I think "Second Skin" and "Ties of Blood and Water" are among the highlights of the series.
I too must disagree with you.
Re: What Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode should be stricken from ca
I'll watch them again.
I'll watch them again.
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Re: What Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode should be stricken from ca
This. I just ignore the ones I hate and don't watch them. The only thing in any franchise I've personally watched that I thought was SO bad it needed to be decanonized was G-Saviour. And hilariously enough, it was.
This. I just ignore the ones I hate and don't watch them. The only thing in any franchise I've personally watched that I thought was SO bad it needed to be decanonized was G-Saviour. And hilariously enough, it was.
Re: What Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode should be stricken from ca
Yeah, I generally just skip the ones I don't like.
If I had to choose though, I would get rid of the 1st Mirror Universe episode. Because if you get rid of that one, you get rid of all of the MU eps.
Talk about taking a good, fun concept from TOS and beating it into the ground in the most awful ways possible. It could have been interesting, but ugh, using that old Rebels vs. the Empire thing...bleh. And the actors go beyond chewing up the scenery into just swallowing it whole.
I can't even take them seriously at all, I prefer even Profit and Lace to any of the DS9 MU stuff.
Yeah, I generally just skip the ones I don't like.
If I had to choose though, I would get rid of the 1st Mirror Universe episode. Because if you get rid of that one, you get rid of all of the MU eps.
Talk about taking a good, fun concept from TOS and beating it into the ground in the most awful ways possible. It could have been interesting, but ugh, using that old Rebels vs. the Empire thing...bleh. And the actors go beyond chewing up the scenery into just swallowing it whole.
I can't even take them seriously at all, I prefer even Profit and Lace to any of the DS9 MU stuff.
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