So what events from the prime trekverse are unaffected by the reboot?

[OneBuckFilms]

Re: So what events from the prime trekverse are unaffected by the rebo

None. It's a reboot, not a prequel. Technically, none of those events are still valid in the alternate universe; the time travel explanation is just sugar coating to help the more fanatical canon-nazis swallow it.

I disagree. Technically, events like Vger and the Whale probe are already in motion, but the writers can choose to ignore them and leave them out of the reboot.

Narratively they can be erased, but using the excuse that it's a reboot is like saying that going back in time and preventing the Roman empire from rising will also stop mount Vesuvius from erupting and burying the landscape where Pompeii might have been.

It would be extremely sloppy writing and I hate the fact that it will probably happen that way.

One thing to consider is that Vejur, the Whale Probe and Praxis happen long after 2258, which is the timeframe the new movie takes us.

There is no reason to assume these events will not occur, but that the results may be altered slightly.

Because these stories have been told, and happen much later than any sequels would take place, it is unreasonable to expect any retelling of, or reference to, these events.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

Re: So what events from the prime trekverse are unaffected by the rebo

Since it's an alternate universe, one could assume that nothing from the prime universe will play out the same. Not to say that it couldn't, but it dosen't have to. What we do know is that the alternate universe began at the very moment that the Kelvin was destroyed, so everything that occured up until that point was part of the prime universe and the people who were alive at that time are still alive. The Botany Bay,the Doomsday Machine, The Gardian or anything else still exists, but dosen't mean Kirk and crew will encounter them. I would argue that the only out of place is prime Spock, who I would think is in violation of the temperal prime directive. I would also argue that Spock prime could convince Kirk and crew to help him restore the timeline and go to the Gardian planet (Spock prime knows where it is) the Gardian is in charge of all time including alternate realities and could send Spock Prime back to the future(not intended).He could prevent the destruction of Romulus which would create an everlasting peace between The Federation and the newly formed Romulan Republic , which is headed by Nero, who is hearalded as the savior of Romulus along with Spock. This would restore and or merge the two universes and no ones the wiser exept Spock, Kirk and Mcoy. This could also be a way that Kirk dosen't end up in the Nexus. How's that for a two part sequel

Problem:

Time travel backwards would simply create another alternate reality.

There is no bridge to the Prime Reality, and no way for Spock/Kirk/Anyone to get back to it.

Spock Prime is stranded in an alternate past, and has decided to help the Vulcans establish a new colony.

Of course, it is possible to create a Bridge via some kind of gateway or anomaly, but that would be a bait-and-switch, and would not make a good movie that would take advantage of the changes made.

Leave the future unknown. Lets explore.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Re: So what events from the prime trekverse are unaffected by the rebo

Once again: the explanation from Spock--that they bothered to have an explanation at all--is charity for the canon nazis, nothing more.

If it's in the film, it's important, it matters.

Of course it matters. Just not in the ways you think it matters.

Specifically, it matters to the people who went to see the movie and were inclined to wonder why things in the new movie seem to play out so differently from things in the TV show. THAT ALONE is the purpose of that line: to appease fans who are inclined to notice or care about that sort of thing.

Beyond that, the line serves no real dramatic purpose. In point of fact, Spock could just as easily be WRONG, and Nero could have come from the Evil Parallel Universe where Romulus was destroyed by the resurgent Earth Empire using Soran's trilithium weapon despite FutureSpock's attempt to stop them.

All of which is just speculation. The only thing established by the film is "Things are different because of parallel universe." The writers have no need to justify any further changes to the timeline, not to you, or to anyone else. That they even bothered to justify the changes that DID occur is awfully charitable of them. Meanwhile, further unexplained changes are better left explained away by the FANS, as we have been doing for generations, and leave the writers to more important things like Keeping Star Trek Awesome.

Sop fooling yourself. The writers knew exactly what they were doing: they were re-making Star Trek. Maybe YOU are confused about what they actually made, but the production team had an extremely clear idea what this was about. They've stated concisely that it IS an alternate reality and therefore anything can (or can not) happen.

They've stated it's an alternate timeline.

Somewhere along the way they got confused as to whether they were writing a reboot or a prequel

No, they didn't get confused. They were writing a reboot. They KNEW they were writing a reboot. The alternate-timeline explanation is just an excuse to force existing canon-happy fans to accept the new timeline for what it is without bitching about continuity errors. Previous continuity is no longer relevant, because this is an alternate timeline.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Re: So what events from the prime trekverse are unaffected by the rebo

I guess you could say that 3000 years into the future of the nu-timeline, someone goes back in time and prevents the Voyager probe from being launched.

Or you could say that without all the shenanigans caused by a Klingon Bird of Prey going to warp in the upper atmosphere circa 1985 (in full view of NATO tracking stations) Voyager 6 wouldn't have been launched. And without Commander Data meeting Mark Twain in San Francisco, humpback whales would never be extinct, and the whale probe never would have been launched.

ETc etc. Anything can be justifed by "alternate timeline" explanation. That's OUR job, not the writers.

 

[Shazam!]

Re: So what events from the prime trekverse are unaffected by the rebo

The alternate-timeline explanation is just an excuse to force existing canon-happy fans to accept the new timeline for what it is without bitching about continuity errors. Previous continuity is no longer relevant, because this is an alternate timeline.

Which is odd because if existing continuity is no longer relevant, why have that line in there at all? Why not just do a full reboot with no ties to what came before? Surely that would eliminate all possible continuity errors? Why have all that convoluted time-traveling dimension hopping taking place? The fact is that the writers went to great lengths to preserve the existing Trek-timeline, in so far as that anything pre-Kelvin blowing up is TOS continuity and as such eventual knock-on effects such as Khan showing up or whatever will be addressed either in movies, TV shows or novels. Not everything can justifiably be explained via alternate-timeline.

 

[Bad Atom]

Re: So what events from the prime trekverse are unaffected by the rebo

This is why the movie should have just been a straight reboot so people didn't have to worry about stuff like this.

Having said that, I'd love to see Abrams' version of V'Ger. They'd get through that cloud in two seconds and blow that sucker to smithereens before anyone found out there was a NASA probe inside.

 

[pookha]

Re: So what events from the prime trekverse are unaffected by the rebo

the writers didnt want to do a total reboot because they wanted to keep a lot of what was trek.
but they wanted the freedom to get rid of total predestination.
in the past we knew what would happen to the characters and when.
now we dont.
but they also have the freedom to bring in whatever of trek lore they wish too.

and they have already said a number of things are still out there like the doomsday machine.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: So what events from the prime trekverse are unaffected by the rebo

the writers didnt want to do a total reboot because they wanted to keep a lot of what was trek.

They could still have done that with a flat-out remake. They could have made it as close to original Trek as they wanted. Just because it'd be a remake doesn't mean it'd have to be as wildly different as nuBSG was from the old.

 

[USS Excelsior]

Re: So what events from the prime trekverse are unaffected by the rebo

They could have just kept the same universe and only be in one if they did a couple of Voyager ideas such as the ship splitting in 2 out of phase or the NuTrek ship and crew actually be silver blood and not know it.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Re: So what events from the prime trekverse are unaffected by the rebo

The alternate-timeline explanation is just an excuse to force existing canon-happy fans to accept the new timeline for what it is without bitching about continuity errors. Previous continuity is no longer relevant, because this is an alternate timeline.

Which is odd because if existing continuity is no longer relevant, why have that line in there at all?

I repeat: it is a way for canon-happy fans to accept the new timeline for what it is without bitching about continuity errors. Nothing more, nothing less.

Why not just do a full reboot with no ties to what came before?

Because the canon-nazis would complain. Better to take thirty seconds out of the movie to pander to this small but vocal fan base than risk alienating them entirely.

Besides: for all intents and purposes, it IS a full reboot, since there's nothing that concretely establishes FutureSpock as being from the Prime Universe. If he is not, then the entire discussion about alternate realities is IN FACT, little more than exposition as to why Nero doesn't know what's going to happen despite being from the future himself.

Not everything can justifiably be explained via alternate-timeline.

Absolutely it can. It's just not the WRITERS responsibility to do so.

Here, I'll justify it right now: since Vulcan no longer exists in the altered timeline, then a certain Vulcan time traveler from the 29th century is never born. Since this is the same time traveler who traveled back to the year 45,600 BC and killed the Doomsday Machine's designer in a drunken bar fight, the effect of the no-longer-existing Vulcan is that the Doomsday Machine is safely deactivated by its creators and never enters the milky way in the first place.

See, that wasn't so hard. Fans have been doing this for generations. That's what we do. It is not, however, what the WRITERS should have to do, and I should not expect them to take that sort of thing seriously in a big-budget production of another Star Trek movie or TV series.

 

[Nowhere Man]

Re: So what events from the prime trekverse are unaffected by the rebo

Since it's an alternate universe, one could assume that nothing from the prime universe will play out the same. Not to say that it couldn't, but it dosen't have to. What we do know is that the alternate universe began at the very moment that the Kelvin was destroyed, so everything that occured up until that point was part of the prime universe and the people who were alive at that time are still alive. The Botany Bay,the Doomsday Machine, The Gardian or anything else still exists, but dosen't mean Kirk and crew will encounter them. I would argue that the only out of place is prime Spock, who I would think is in violation of the temperal prime directive. I would also argue that Spock prime could convince Kirk and crew to help him restore the timeline and go to the Gardian planet (Spock prime knows where it is) the Gardian is in charge of all time including alternate realities and could send Spock Prime back to the future(not intended).He could prevent the destruction of Romulus which would create an everlasting peace between The Federation and the newly formed Romulan Republic , which is headed by Nero, who is hearalded as the savior of Romulus along with Spock. This would restore and or merge the two universes and no ones the wiser exept Spock, Kirk and Mcoy. This could also be a way that Kirk dosen't end up in the Nexus. How's that for a two part sequel

Problem:

Time travel backwards would simply create another alternate reality.

There is no bridge to the Prime Reality, and no way for Spock/Kirk/Anyone to get back to it.

Spock Prime is stranded in an alternate past, and has decided to help the Vulcans establish a new colony.

Of course, it is possible to create a Bridge via some kind of gateway or anomaly, but that would be a bait-and-switch, and would not make a good movie that would take advantage of the changes made.

Leave the future unknown. Lets explore.

I gave you the bridge, The Gardian, The Gardian is in control of all time http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Guardian_of_Forever The Guardian of Forever is a construct of an unknown, ancient alien race, that apparently functions as a time portal, or gateway to other times and dimentions. I don't think it's a bait and switch, they would be using established canon to help the story along. For general adiances Spock would use a couple of short lines to explain what this thing is. I would just like to see the whole thing come full circle, so we can connect this Trek to the past Trek. To me, the movies have been a continous story with two seperate generations with Spock bieng the connection between the two. The TNG charachters don't have to be involved, but i'd like to see a completion of this story.

 

[Shazam!]

Re: So what events from the prime trekverse are unaffected by the rebo

I repeat: it is a way for canon-happy fans to accept the new timeline for what it is without bitching about continuity errors. Nothing more, nothing less.

I repeat: So? It doesn't matter why it's there just that it's there.

Because the canon-nazis would complain. Better to take thirty seconds out of the movie to pander to this small but vocal fan base than risk alienating them entirely.

It's not 30 seconds though is it. It's pretty much the entire film. Even if Spock hadn't spoonfed us an explanation an educated audience would've seen Nero coming back in time and the destruction of Vulcan and gone "Oh, so we're in an alternate timeline". Nimoy's presense is the key to that. Maybe if they'd put Quinto in old-age make-up you could kinda go "Well, maybe it's ALL unrelated to previous canon" but as it stands it clearly isn't. Even the writers say so:

So the time travel and the original timeline is discussed in the movie?

Kurtzman: It is the whole plot. It is acknowledged and embraced as an inevitable part of this story. You could not tell this story without it. We are not dancing around it and pretending it doesn’t exist

Orci (on the use of time-travel): However, it was such an important reason to use it — to have both a prequel and a sequel — to maintain canon

Nimoy’s Spock is the constant from that original timeline. What is his role in the film?

Orci: He does not simply exist in flashback. He is one of the pivotal turning points that causes the events of the film to happen. In a sense, he is the reason for the events of much of the film.

there's nothing that concretely establishes FutureSpock as being from the Prime Universe.

See above.

Absolutely it can. It's just not the WRITERS responsibility to do so.

It's not the writers responsibilty to justify their writing? The writers can do whatever they want but they're not gonna have Khan turn up as a giant fish and then expect the audience to figure out why.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: So what events from the prime trekverse are unaffected by the rebo

I just think that the writers either 'ignored' or just plain thought "fuck it" when dealing with certain aspects.

No, they specifically said in interviews: "Think 'Parallels'!"

 

[USS Excelsior]

Re: So what events from the prime trekverse are unaffected by the rebo

It would have been better if they got us to think Parallels and not involve the Prime Universe in it at all and be done with it.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

Re: So what events from the prime trekverse are unaffected by the rebo

I gave you the bridge, The Gardian, The Gardian is in control of all time http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Guardian_of_Forever The Guardian of Forever is a construct of an unknown, ancient alien race, that apparently functions as a time portal, or gateway to other times and dimentions. I don't think it's a bait and switch, they would be using established canon to help the story along. For general adiances Spock would use a couple of short lines to explain what this thing is. I would just like to see the whole thing come full circle, so we can connect this Trek to the past Trek. To me, the movies have been a continous story with two seperate generations with Spock bieng the connection between the two. The TNG charachters don't have to be involved, but i'd like to see a completion of this story.

To new audiences, it WOULD be. We have, through an alternate-reality plot device, been given a new reality where anything is possible, and the galaxy is unknown, with an unwritten future.

To ME it would be because we would completely lose that with the Big Red Reset Button.

Now, down the line, we may get a glimpse into the Trek universe of TOS, or even the post-Nemesis timeframe Spock came from. Certainly with Romulus destroyed, things could be very interesting in the Prime Universe after Spock's departure. Star Trek Online shows us this.

But this would not really work in a major motion picture. It would either have to be nostalgic for the post-Nemesis Prime timeline, or for TOS, which to look correct to us, would have to use the original, unchanged designs, and be a visual laughing stock.

If a TV series is made based on the movie series, it is possible to do a story that bridges the gap and sends Spock back post-nemesis to the Prime timeline in that way, and it would work once the new reality was explored in more detail.

This film was always meant to be a new beginning for Star Trek. Let it be exactly that.

 

[Jeyl]

Re: So what events from the prime trekverse are unaffected by the rebo

This film was always meant to be a new beginning for Star Trek. Let it be exactly that.

Sorry, but if women aren't allowed to have *SOME* form of an authoritative role in this reality, I'm not interested in where this new beginning is going to lead us. Remember, this is the time line where women aren't allowed to be captains of a starship, and given how poorly Uhura was treated (Being the most capable comms person but being put down TWICE before getting her position), I don't think we're in good hands.

I would rather stick with the Prime Universe so much more than this universe. We have Dax and Kira. What does NuTrek have?



And why should I even care about NuKirk? What's to like? I wouldn't follow his orders even if he was Captain, and I sure as heck wouldn't allow him to assume command of the Enterprise after what he did on the bridge before and after he was stranded.

 

[thumbtack]

Re: So what events from the prime trekverse are unaffected by the rebo

Why not just do a full reboot with no ties to what came before?

Because then whiny fanboys would be able to cling to the false hope that "my Trek" will be back someday. With each new installment, they would be back to complain again and demand the return of the prime universe.

What writer or director would want to have his party crashed by the exact same contingent of ubernerds (using duals) every time they release a new sequel? Their boss is Paramonut Pictures Corporation, not Johnny W. Basementdweller.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Re: So what events from the prime trekverse are unaffected by the rebo

It's not 30 seconds though is it. It's pretty much the entire film.

You're referring to the point where "parallel universe" is explained by the crew. That sequence takes something less than thirty seconds. The entire rest of the film was about the characters and the problem they were solving; the subject didn't even come up again until FutureSpock talked with YoungSpock.

Even if Spock hadn't spoonfed us an explanation an educated audience would've seen Nero coming back in time and the destruction of Vulcan and gone "Oh, so we're in an alternate timeline".

That's awfully conceited, isn't it? An "educated audience" probably wouldn't give a shit. Only those highly familiar with the minutia and the details of the Trek universe would pick up on that implication, and even then there'd be room to question whether the Vulcan saw saw in TOS wasn't simply the NEW Vulcan homeworld resettled by the remnants of their species (and then we'd have people complaining about canon violations and how TOS/TNG never mention such a huge cataclysm, etc etc).

Nimoy's presense is the key to that.

Nimoy is an ACTOR, not a time traveler.

Maybe if they'd put Quinto in old-age make-up you could kinda go "Well, maybe it's ALL unrelated to previous canon"

I still can. In fact, I just did. And I'll do it again whenever it suits me, because there isn't anything you could point to that would conclusively prove otherwise.

Unless you're suggesting that the presence of Tyler Perry at Starfleet Academy proves that Mabel Simons is canon in the Trekiverse.

t's not the writers responsibilty to justify their writing?

Nope. That's what PRODUCERS are for. The writers are only responsible for the quality and integrity of the story and whether or not it possesses sufficient entertainment value to justify a multi-million dollar project to transform text into action.

If they have to justify anything, they do this to the studio and the director. They do not have to justify anything to the FANS.

The writers can do whatever they want but they're not gonna have Khan turn up as a giant fish and then expect the audience to figure out why.

They're not, because that would be stupid. They COULD, of course, if they thought the audience would find that amusing. That "the audience will find it amusing" would be all the justification they need.

 

[Nowhere Man]

Re: So what events from the prime trekverse are unaffected by the rebo

I gave you the bridge, The Gardian, The Gardian is in control of all time http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Guardian_of_Forever The Guardian of Forever is a construct of an unknown, ancient alien race, that apparently functions as a time portal, or gateway to other times and dimentions. I don't think it's a bait and switch, they would be using established canon to help the story along. For general adiances Spock would use a couple of short lines to explain what this thing is. I would just like to see the whole thing come full circle, so we can connect this Trek to the past Trek. To me, the movies have been a continous story with two seperate generations with Spock bieng the connection between the two. The TNG charachters don't have to be involved, but i'd like to see a completion of this story.

To new audiences, it WOULD be. We have, through an alternate-reality plot device, been given a new reality where anything is possible, and the galaxy is unknown, with an unwritten future.

To ME it would be because we would completely lose that with the Big Red Reset Button.

Now, down the line, we may get a glimpse into the Trek universe of TOS, or even the post-Nemesis timeframe Spock came from. Certainly with Romulus destroyed, things could be very interesting in the Prime Universe after Spock's departure. Star Trek Online shows us this.

But this would not really work in a major motion picture. It would either have to be nostalgic for the post-Nemesis Prime timeline, or for TOS, which to look correct to us, would have to use the original, unchanged designs, and be a visual laughing stock.

If a TV series is made based on the movie series, it is possible to do a story that bridges the gap and sends Spock back post-nemesis to the Prime timeline in that way, and it would work once the new reality was explored in more detail.

This film was always meant to be a new beginning for Star Trek. Let it be exactly that.

maybe your right, maybe a TV. show would be better to explore that and other stuff. The only major problem I have with this universe is that once Abrahms is done with it, we will never see it agian. Why they couldn't have just done a prequel, dosen't make sense. I guess we will have to see what happens in the sequels to know whether or not a TV. series or more movies will come. I think an updated version of the TOS designs could work. Not everything has to be touch screen, look at your TV. remote and keyboard it has buttons. I alway's looked at the TOS designs were like that because of the Earth Romulan war and all the wars prior caused a small middle ages in which tech. is lost, sorta. Those designs worked for Enterprise. Anyway, I don't have a problem with the new universe, it just seems like theres two different Star Treks now. I just wish they would find a way to make it all one Star Trek. I personally don't mind the reset button as long as it's well written, or any story for that matter. What I don't want to see is a rehashing of Khan or some other crap.

 

[Shazam!]

Re: So what events from the prime trekverse are unaffected by the rebo

I still can. In fact, I just did. And I'll do it again whenever it suits me, because there isn't anything you could point to that would conclusively prove otherwise.

So you missed all this bit?

So the time travel and the original timeline is discussed in the movie?

Kurtzman: It is the whole plot. It is acknowledged and embraced as an inevitable part of this story. You could not tell this story without it. We are not dancing around it and pretending it doesn’t exist

Orci (on the use of time-travel): However, it was such an important reason to use it — to have both a prequel and a sequel — to maintain canon

Nimoy’s Spock is the constant from that original timeline. What is his role in the film?

Orci: He does not simply exist in flashback. He is one of the pivotal turning points that causes the events of the film to happen. In a sense, he is the reason for the events of much of the film.

I'm not even sure what you're point is anymore but if it's that the whole film is all one big reboot with no ties whatsoever to existing Trek you're actually wrong.