Good lord Trek lit is confusing.

[kkozoriz1]

Well, I don't see where the series having so many connections to TOS, after all Project Vanguard is supposed to be one the most important things happening in the Federation. So it's not really that supprising that some important people from the UFP would be involved. As for the Tholians, this is the first time they've been looked at in depth like this, so it's not like we've seen all of their stuff before.

Agreed. We should see important people from all over the Federation. Do they have to be people we're already familiar with or at least people we've heard of or met, however briefly? There's already lots of TOS connections. How about a new character from a race that was seen in TOS but we don't know anything about? Those short, copper skinned ambassadors with the fezzes. What's their story? Just an example. The galaxy is a big place. Let's see how much of it we can see, even if those parts have to come to Vanguard to see them.

And project vanguard is an important project but, until recently, it was totally secret. Elements still are. Some parts of it are known to the public.

 

[JD]

How about a new character from a race that was seen in TOS but we don't know anything about?

Like Jetanien?

 

[kkozoriz1]

How about a new character from a race that was seen in TOS but we don't know anything about?

Like Jetanien?

Yes, exactly. Why bring in Nogura when we could have a new character or race to learn about? It doesn't even have to be an alien race. How about a human from a planet where everyone looks human? How does their culture make them different? Just don't make it a character we've already met.

That's what made Ex Machina such a fun read. We knew the faces. Now we get to meet them as people.

 

[Christopher]

What is the reason that the Admiral MUST be Nogura? Why not give us a new, even alien, character?

Nogura rose to a pretty high position in Starfleet by 2273. It therefore stands to reason that he had a pretty active career and/or was involved in some pretty major events in earlier times. So it's not that improbable for him to be there.

Besides, VNG isn't about avoiding TOS concepts and characters. As I said, it's partly about filling in the background behind aspects of the 23rd century that were only peripherally referenced in TOS. Nogura is one such peripheral reference. Who was he? What was his background? Answering questions like that is part of what Vanguard is for.

Let's see something we haven't seen before.

There is plenty in VNG that we haven't seen before, along with some things that we have. So this sentence is a preposterous exaggeration. You sound like someone who's given a bowl of chocolate marshmallow ice cream and going, "Why does everything have to revolve around marshmallow? Why can't I have some chocolate instead?" It's a ludicrous misrepresentation of the facts.

[Where does it stop? Let Vanguard be Vanguard.

It is being Vanguard. Part of what Vanguard has been intended to be all along is an elaboration on concepts from TOS. It has always, from the start, been meant to tie in to more and more elements of TOS as it went along.

 

[kkozoriz1]

What is the reason that the Admiral MUST be Nogura? Why not give us a new, even alien, character?

Nogura rose to a pretty high position in Starfleet by 2273. It therefore stands to reason that he had a pretty active career and/or was involved in some pretty major events in earlier times. So it's not that improbable for him to be there.

Besides, VNG isn't about avoiding TOS concepts and characters. As I said, it's partly about filling in the background behind aspects of the 23rd century that were only peripherally referenced in TOS. Nogura is one such peripheral reference. Who was he? What was his background? Answering questions like that is part of what Vanguard is for.

Let's see something we haven't seen before.

There is plenty in VNG that we haven't seen before, along with some things that we have. So this sentence is a preposterous exaggeration. You sound like someone who's given a bowl of chocolate marshmallow ice cream and going, "Why does everything have to revolve around marshmallow? Why can't I have some chocolate instead?" It's a ludicrous misrepresentation of the facts.

[Where does it stop? Let Vanguard be Vanguard.

It is being Vanguard. Part of what Vanguard has been intended to be all along is an elaboration on concepts from TOS. It has always, from the start, been meant to tie in to more and more elements of TOS as it went along.

Well, if that's the case I'll probably stop picking it up. I like shared universes, where elements of one story can appear or affect another but I'm not interested in an appendix or adjunct to another story. I'd rather read something fresh rather than going more and more to examining something I've already seen from another angle. Put another way, I'd rather it spiraled away from TOS rather than spiral toward. Too bad, I've been enjoying it for the most part. I don't need all my stories to tie together.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Well, if that's the case I'll probably stop picking it up. I like shared universes, where elements of one story can appear or affect another but I'm not interested in an appendix or adjunct to another story. I'd rather read something fresh rather than going more and more to examining something I've already seen from another angle... I don't need all my stories to tie together.

And I'll bet for every person who wants less guest appearances by known Federation personnel, UFP aliens and enemy races we've only glimpsed before, there are others who want more, more more.

It really sounds to me like you'd be happier reading Larry Niven's "Ringworld" books. Ooops, nah, there are kzinti in there! Watch out!

 

[Thrawn]

Personal preference is personal preference, and there's no real use arguing it, and I acknowledge that. So I'm not trying to be antagonistic here, this is just my perspective.

But it seems to me that this kind of argument forgets that Trek is not a real universe, it's a story. And it makes sense for stories to interrelate more than events would in "real life", because it makes the story better. There's not much point in perfect realism if the universe gets so drowned in a bevy of redundant character types that it loses plot coherence.

Take Vaughn, for instance - a new character had just been established with DECADES of backstory to tell, all/most of which could make genuinely fascinating stories. So, three of the books that came out over the next couple years taking place in the past featured him, so that part of that backstory could be told. That way, those books could serve both as stories to fill various holes in the Trek universe, and as vehicles for telling Vaughn's backstory, making the overall tale of the Trek universe stronger twice. And since it's a story, we're allowed to do that.

It seems weird to be so stuck on accepting minor coincidences like that when you have no problem in a universe where all the aliens look effectively exactly like humans, or transporters are possible, or whatever. It's all part of the creation of the fiction.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Personal preference is personal preference, and there's no real use arguing it, and I acknowledge that. So I'm not trying to be antagonistic here, this is just my perspective.

But it seems to me that this kind of argument forgets that Trek is not a real universe, it's a story. And it makes sense for stories to interrelate more than events would in "real life", because it makes the story better. There's not much point in perfect realism if the universe gets so drowned in a bevy of redundant character types that it loses plot coherence.

Take Vaughn, for instance - a new character had just been established with DECADES of backstory to tell, all/most of which could make genuinely fascinating stories. So, three of the books that came out over the next couple years taking place in the past featured him, so that part of that backstory could be told. That way, those books could serve both as stories to fill various holes in the Trek universe, and as vehicles for telling Vaughn's backstory, making the overall tale of the Trek universe stronger twice. And since it's a story, we're allowed to do that.

It seems weird to be so stuck on accepting minor coincidences like that when you have no problem in a universe where all the aliens look effectively exactly like humans, or transporters are possible, or whatever. It's all part of the creation of the fiction.

I've read Ringworld and it's sequels. And Hal Clement. And Vonda McIntyre (Before and after her turn at Trek). And pretty much any other author you can mention in SF. They are not Trek and Trek is not them. It's a universe unto itself. And one I've enjoyed for the most part since I first saw it way back in the 60's. It's been about exploring. Not just planets and nebulas and spacial anomalies. It's been about exploring ourselves and others. What makes us alike. What makes us different. Just because Vanguard is set in the same timeframe as TOS doesn't mean that it should tie itself too closely. New York and Los Angeles are two similar cities, sharing a government and a culture. Does that mean that when you tell a story set in New York, someone from Los Angeles should show up just because a story was set in the same fictional universe but based in Los Angeles?

TNG and DS9 were in the same universe and overlapped in time. There were crossovers. However, for the most part they told stories about the people that were within their own corner of the universe. When TNG ended, Worf moved over to DS9 and it worked. No problem with that. What you didn't have was the Enterprise or someone assigned to her show up every other episode. I want the universe to be big. When Kirk said that the Federation was on a thousand planets, I don't think he meant that there were ten people on each of them.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Just because Vanguard is set in the same timeframe as TOS doesn't mean that it should tie itself too closely.

Pocket's license from CBS, and mandates/guidance from CBS Consumer Products, demands that "Vanguard" has sufficient ties to ST to make it recognisably Star Trek to anyone picking it up off the shelf.

DS9 wasn't written under license. It wasn't a tie-in, it was a canonical sequel to TOS, a ST spin-off and a sister series of TNG.

But I don't see that "Vanguard" has any more or less cross-pollinating guests that did TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY or ENT. Or "New Frontier" , "Titan", "IKS Gorkon" or "Corps of Engineers".

 

[Thrawn]

New York and Los Angeles are two similar cities, sharing a government and a culture. Does that mean that when you tell a story set in New York, someone from Los Angeles should show up just because a story was set in the same fictional universe but based in Los Angeles?

^ No, because New York and Los Angeles are real places and Star Trek is a story. Which is the distinction I'm trying to make here.

There is literary merit in creating, 40 years after the fact, a new fiction that reflects creatively on the old. It may not be the most realistic setup ever put to page, but it makes a good story, to examine the events of TOS through the lens of a completely new place, time, and set of characters. There's all kinds of interesting metatextual dialogue going on between Vanguard and TOS that I think elevates Vanguard to a whole other level of awesome. You'd lose that if you tried to, as realistically as possible, ensure that the precise percentage of recognizable characters appeared that you'd expect.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Just because Vanguard is set in the same timeframe as TOS doesn't mean that it should tie itself too closely.

Pocket's license from CBS, and mandates/guidance from CBS Consumer Products, demands that "Vanguard" has sufficient ties to ST to make it recognisably Star Trek to anyone picking it up off the shelf.

DS9 wasn't written under license. It wasn't a tie-in, it was a canonical sequel to TOS, a ST spin-off and a sister series of TNG.

But I don't see that "Vanguard" has any more or less cross-pollinating guests that did TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY or ENT. Or "New Frontier" , "Titan", "IKS Gorkon" or "Corps of Engineers".

I would hope that Carol Marcus and Nogura aren't just guests, strangely enough. To bring them in and then out again in a book or two after the set-up involved would be a let down. Marcus was brought in to oversee the scientific research. And Nogura's appearance and Reyes' disapperance (and one year later re-appearance) both seem to be fairly long term changes. If they pulled a "Gotcha!" and had them leave quickly I'd toss the book aside in disgust.

How much Star Trek do you need to make it Star Trek? What is a sufficient tie? Must a TOS created character appear in each volume? Is there a minimum number of pages that they have to have a significant presence? There's Klingons, Tholians, Dr. M'Benga, Gorkon, D'Amato's now deceased wife, Carol Marcus, Admiral Nogura, Tim Pennington indirectly via the future Pennington Award, Clark Terrell and others. Will there be a mention in some way of every TOS episode? Vanguard has been said to be well out on the frontier. Reyes couldn't even see his dying mother due to the distance involved.

 

[Dayton Ward]

^ I think you may be getting yourself wound up for no reason. You should probably relax, and breathe regular

Nogura's involvement is deliberate, as is that of Marcus. The reason Nogura was used is precisely because he's a "name only" from the TOS mythos, but next to nothing is known about him. Other than his being named two or three times in a movie most people would rather forget even existed, that's his only mention in canonical Trek. He's mentioned only by name in Kevin Ryan's various Errand of books, mostly in the context that he and other admirals for security reasons remain separated. At the time, and since we were endeavoring to remain consistent with Kevin's books, the editor's and our thinking was that it made perfect sense for him to be as far from Earth as possible. Since he already was mentioned in Kevin's books as being a key player with respect to the worsening political and military situation between the Federation and the Klingons, it made sense that he have some active role at/in a key area. Add to that Vanguard needing a new C.O., and there you go.

And no, every story won't be a sequel or a revisit to something from TOS. That said, from the moment it was announced, Vanguard was intended to lend additional weight and context to various aspects from TOS, showing how encounters with this alien race or that strange tech or that political situation had larger impacts beyond the single episode in which it was featured. Conversely, the events taking place in the Taurus Reach also have an impact on the bigger picture only hinted at in various TOS episodes. As such, mentions of this or that will continue to be weaved into the Vanguard fabric as appropriate.

 

[Christopher]

Well, if that's the case I'll probably stop picking it up. I like shared universes, where elements of one story can appear or affect another but I'm not interested in an appendix or adjunct to another story.

You're completely misunderstanding. I'm saying that's one part of the larger whole of Vanguard, which is mostly new material. And you're looking at something that's mostly new and partly, peripherally tied into the old and complaining as if it were only tied into the old and had nothing new at all. Hence my analogy to chocolate marshmallow ice cream, which, in case you've never had it, is mostly chocolate. It's disingenuous -- to put it mildly -- for you to react to VNG as if its minority component were its only component. Your response to this is a bizarre overreaction and grossly inconsistent with the facts.

 

[mattburgess]

Off topic?

 

[Dayton Ward]

^ I don't know. The nature of what a particular series involves or entails might play into the OP's question about where to start, if they happen to be looking for this or that in their Trek fiction. The topic is broad enough that a few minor side discussions don't seem too far out of line.

And if such discussions can help to alleviate a reader's concerns, then it's a win-win.

 

[kkozoriz1]

^ I think you may be getting yourself wound up for no reason. You should probably relax, and breathe regular

Nogura's involvement is deliberate, as is that of Marcus. The reason Nogura was used is precisely because he's a "name only" from the TOS mythos, but next to nothing is known about him. Other than his being named two or three times in a movie most people would rather forget even existed, that's his only mention in canonical Trek. He's mentioned only by name in Kevin Ryan's various Errand of books, mostly in the context that he and other admirals for security reasons remain separated. At the time, and since we were endeavoring to remain consistent with Kevin's books, the editor's and our thinking was that it made perfect sense for him to be as far from Earth as possible. Since he already was mentioned in Kevin's books as being a key player with respect to the worsening political and military situation between the Federation and the Klingons, it made sense that he have some active role at/in a key area. Add to that Vanguard needing a new C.O., and there you go.

And no, every story won't be a sequel or a revisit to something from TOS. That said, from the moment it was announced, Vanguard was intended to lend additional weight and context to various aspects from TOS, showing how encounters with this alien race or that strange tech or that political situation had larger impacts beyond the single episode in which it was featured. Conversely, the events taking place in the Taurus Reach also have an impact on the bigger picture only hinted at in various TOS episodes. As such, mentions of this or that will continue to be weaved into the Vanguard fabric as appropriate.

Thanks for the concern but I am quite relaxed and my breathing is regular. Pulse normal.

I've never said that I don't want to see elements of TOS stories appear. I'm just concerned that the TOS elements are starting to overshadow the Vangard elements. I like the new characters. I'd like to learn more about them. In the last two books we've had Jim Kirk's old girlfriend show up in one and his old boss in the next. Will his mom be showing up in the next one? (Not seriously...at least I hope not). Both Marcus and Nogura look the be somewhat long term additions. If, as you say, there's good reasons for them being there then that's pages that won't be available for the original VNGD characters. How would DS9 have fared if Worf had been added halfway through he first season?

Having the effects of TOS stories show up in Vanguard shouldn't involve the main characters being pushed aside or put in the background. I've been enjoying the series for it's new and fresh look at the time period. I'm not interested in the Guest Star of the Week. Hopefully you'll prove my fears as unwarranted.

 

[seigezunt]

me, I love continuity porn. I haven't read these books yet, but it doesn't sound like it is too heavy. Try the Shatnerverse books for that.

 

[Dayton Ward]

Anybody with any passing knowledge of Trek lore can see why Carol Marcus is in the mix. For what it's worth, she was always part of the storyline; her inclusion goes all the way back to the original Vanguard series bible David Mack wrote in 2004, and she's there precisely for the reasons everybody is now seeing.

On the other hand, Nogura was not part of the original equation, but then again....neither was the notion of court-martialing Reyes. That came about due to the fact that the Vanguard storyline, despite having a defined core arc, has evolved over time with the addition of each new book. We actually did have the conversation about whether to make Reyes's replacement a new or "known" character (in our original outline for what became Open Secrets, the replacement was to be a member of a known Trek alien race, but I'm forgetting what it was at the moment), and finally decided it would be fun to use Nogura, precisely because so little was known about him beyond the fact that he was once Kirk's C.O. For all intents and purposes, he *is* an original character, because he's pretty much a blank slate, save for precious few mentions or cameos.

So, nobody's being pushed aside or marginalized in favor of a "guest star of the week." With every book clocking in at 400 or so pages, there would seem to be plenty of room for all sorts of characters to play. I personally believe such fears to be unwarranted, and hopefully as the series continues, readers will see it, too.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Well, if that's the case I'll probably stop picking it up. I like shared universes, where elements of one story can appear or affect another but I'm not interested in an appendix or adjunct to another story.

You're completely misunderstanding. I'm saying that's one part of the larger whole of Vanguard, which is mostly new material. And you're looking at something that's mostly new and partly, peripherally tied into the old and complaining as if it were only tied into the old and had nothing new at all. Hence my analogy to chocolate marshmallow ice cream, which, in case you've never had it, is mostly chocolate. It's disingenuous -- to put it mildly -- for you to react to VNG as if its minority component were its only component. Your response to this is a bizarre overreaction and grossly inconsistent with the facts.

I'm not saying that is only tied to the old. I'm saying that the last couple of books in particular are moving in that direction. I don't think that the story of the Taurus Reach will be totally overshadowed by TOS elements but I don't want to see the new sharing the spotlight with the old.

OK, if TOS is chocolate ice cream and Vanguard is chocolate-marshmallow I don't want the marshmallow reduced while adding more chocolate. Let's broaden the flavour. Don't get rid of the chocolate but let's try some mocha. Maybe add whipped cream and nuts. The chocolate doesn't have to be a major component but it's nice to have in the background with the occasional spoonful of mostly chocolate.

Great, now I'm hungry....

 

[Christopher]

No, no, no. The TOS elements are the marshmallow -- they're the minority ingredient. Most of the content of VNG is original. The TOS content is such a small part of the mix that it's totally untrue to say it's "overshadowing" the rest.