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TWoK or ST'09....

Which do you prefer?

  • The Wrath Of Khan

    Votes: 97 71.9%
  • Star Trek '09

    Votes: 19 14.1%
  • Both equally

    Votes: 16 11.9%
  • Neither equally

    Votes: 3 2.2%

  • Total voters
    135
I would only vote for "Star Trek" if we were comparing the movies in terms of which had better special effects. That's about the only way it's very superior to "The Wrath of Khan". I guess it has a better opening scene too...I love that Kobyashi Maru scene, but the "Star Trek" opening moved me to the point where I was on the verge of tears. As much as I criticize the movie, I gotta give it 'mad props' for that amazing opening sequence. :)
 
TWoK. That film is timeless. ST09 is fun and all, and I'm happy the franchise has been reinvigorated, but KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!!!
 
TREK XI('09) has far superior effects for the most part...but the story is a little more random and contrived than KHAN's so in term of sheer human appeal and warmth KHAN still wins out.
 
Of course does ST 09 have superior effects, it's 20 years younger. Although... only the quality is better (details of the ships, complexity of the scenes, etc...), but not the impact. The Battle in the Mutara Nebula still looks great (yeah, the particle effects would have been more detailed in the new movie, whooo), AND each of the VFX shots in that sequence are more dramatic than any of the 1500 VFX shots in the new movie.

When the Enterprise rises behind the Reliant in the final attack... that a far better scene compared to when the nuEnterprise emerges from the Titan atmosphere, for example.

The Genesis effect... revolutionary. The new movie had no revolutionary stuff whatsoever.

Quality over quantity, quality over quantity.
 
Good points, Jarod. Meta-textually, the transformational power and newness of the Genesis Device is also matched by the transformational power and newness of digital rendering, which the animation that Kirk, Spock and McCoy watch encapsulates.

But here's a kicker:

Are you out of your Vulcan mind?

Which film, TWOK or STXI, has the better rendition of this line?

STXI is a prime example of regurgitating powerful moments in inferior contexts. When McCoy says those words to Spock in TWOK, his incredulity is piqued and matched by the sacrifice that Spock is about to make. It is also McCoy's way of trying to get Spock to listen to logic, which is a dramatic inversion of the archetypal antagonism of the two characters, and yet, it makes complete sense, as McCoy knows Spock and knows their history, and in his desperation, makes an appeal that he thinks will reach Spock and stop him going to his death. To me, this beautifully accentuates the emotional weight of the moment. When all is said and done, the two men deeply care for each other, and what Spock is about to do becomes all the more shocking and affecting.

In STXI, it is tossed off as a simple admonition, by one character who barely knows the other, and barely has a right to accost the character based on his heritage, even if he did just order a contemptible act (i.e. the marooning of his second officer, rather than ordering him confined to quarters or the brig). It just has no authority or dimension to it, which it did back in 1982 when it was first uttered. Kirk's apple-chewing during the Kobayashi Maru in STXI falls prey to the same thing. On both occasions, older moments in a well-regarded film are being quoted, but without any of the beguiling subtext they originally had. They go from meaningful signifiers to simple ornaments, bereft of substance. Such a play on nostalgia has a cheap political odour, as well as the sense of hucksters trying to ingratiate themselves ("We know Star Trek! We know Star Trek!"), and, in my view, should be frowned upon.
 
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Regarding the apple eating - in both movies, this happens when Kirk knows he has beaten the No Win Scenario. TWOK implies something like the way it was shown in ST XI, so I have no problem with it.
 
Regarding the apple eating - in both movies, this happens when Kirk knows he has beaten the No Win Scenario. TWOK implies something like the way it was shown in ST XI, so I have no problem with it.

Actually, the apple-eating in TWOK portends Kirk's loss. It is a clear allusion to The Garden Of Eden, not least because of where Kirk is eating it, and the name of the device that is inexorably bound in the creation of said location. The loss, of course, is that of his beloved comrade, Spock. Birth and rebirth are inextricably linked in TWOK, to the extent that Meyer even wanted to call the picture "The Undiscovered Country" (which he got his way on almost a decade later, of course). In Meyer's film, Kirk actually pays a price for his over confidence, his vanity and his sublimated greed. In STXI? Not really.
 
Kirk is punished for his cheating in ST XI. He is cast out of the starship crews and only goes on the mission because McCoy cheats as well.
Not quite the same level of loss, I agree.

TWOK and ST XI establish a habit of Kirk's - apple eating in moments of extreme over confidence. Seems reasonable to me.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
 
But here's a kicker:

Are you out of your Vulcan mind?

Which film, TWOK or STXI, has the better rendition of this line?

STXI is a prime example of regurgitating powerful moments in inferior contexts.

In STXI, it is tossed off as a simple admonition, by one character who barely knows the other, and barely has a right to accost the character based on his heritage, even if he did just order a contemptible act (i.e. the marooning of his second officer, rather than ordering him confined to quarters or the brig). It just has no authority or dimension to it, which it did back in 1982 when it was first uttered.

No need to take it so seriously. I felt a little bit like you did when I first saw it, but now that I think about it, I don't mind so much. Yes, it is unnatural and obviously just a 'wink at the audience' reference to old movies/TV episodes with a catchphrase, but if you just take it for what it is and don't analyze it to death, you might just conclude, "whatever, it's cute, no harm done", as I have and be cool with it. :cool:
 
Wrath of Khan, hands down.

As good as it was, I can't see Stark Trek '09 being fondly recalled a classic like TWOK is today.
 
TWOK

We had Khan the best adversary of Kirk. We had the genesis SFX. Nothing had been seen like it ever. The SFX are good in ST XI but not mind blowing. They dont make your jaw drop the way TWOK did.

TWOK feels like Star Trek and the characters are very realistic and easy to relate to. ST XI feels like Star Wars and is too rushed for me. Considering there isnt a huge amount of plot to think about I don't see why it couldnt have been paced a little slower.

I think the main plus point for TWOK is it has the original actors in it doing what they do best. Kirstie Alley was hot as Saa'vik.

The death of Spock was profound and unmatchable in any of the other films. I just wish I had had the chance to see this in a cinema.

ST XI is still a great film and very entertaining as a sci fi film. I just can't compare it to other ST films because it changes the timeline and things just dont seem to fit in place despite the writers explanations.
 
Good points, Jarod. Meta-textually, the transformational power and newness of the Genesis Device is also matched by the transformational power and newness of digital rendering, which the animation that Kirk, Spock and McCoy watch encapsulates.

But here's a kicker:

Are you out of your Vulcan mind?

Which film, TWOK or STXI, has the better rendition of this line?

If you're saying that to a near-stranger ET, that is probably akin to addressing an African-American as 'crazy nigger' since you're insulting heritage and intelligence. So that sounds like a seriously inappropriate homage, and a rather desperate and misguided attempt to wink at trek fans.

Does Urban at least give it the Kelley spin, where he makes 'Vulcan' sound a little like 'fucking' -- which is part of what makes the original reading so on target, as in 'are you out of your fucking mind?'
 
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