TWoK or ST'09....

[Cryogenic]

Good points, Jarod. Meta-textually, the transformational power and newness of the Genesis Device is also matched by the transformational power and newness of digital rendering, which the animation that Kirk, Spock and McCoy watch encapsulates.

But here's a kicker:

Are you out of your Vulcan mind?

Which film, TWOK or STXI, has the better rendition of this line?

If you're saying that to a near-stranger ET, that is probably akin to addressing an African-American as 'crazy nigger' since you're insulting heritage and intelligence. So that sounds like a seriously inappropriate homage, and a rather desperate and misguided attempt to wink at trek fans.

Oh, it gets better. I hope I'm not spoiling anything for you. You've been warned!

After Kirk and Spock first "meet", which is during Kirk being brought up in front of the rest of his year to defend himself for cheating on the Kobayashi Maru, and Spock, the test's programmer, takes the opposing podium and chides him, the scene ends abruptly as the cadets race off in response to Vulcan's distress call, giving Kirk and Bones a moment together, in which Kirk rhetorically asks, "Who was that pointy-eared bastard?"

Does Urban at least give it the Kelley spin, where he makes 'Vulcan' sound a little like 'fucking' -- which is part of what makes the original reading so on target, as in 'are you out of your fucking mind?'

Not really. Wow, that's a revelation, isn't it?

Of course, I should add, "in my opinion". A lot of people found Karl Urban not merely satisfactory, but excellent. Not me. Once again, in my opinion, Urban not only missed all of Kelley's humanity and compassion, but didn't even get the irascibility right. Worst of all, in the words of at least one other person who seems to share my take, Karl Urban's face basically has one expression: a permanent disdain that suggests he is constantly afflicted by the smell of cat shit.

Did he remotely convince me, at any fraction in space or time, that he was the living embodiment of DeForest Kelley, Dr McCoy, Leonard H.? Not on your nelly. "Are you out of your Vulcan mind?" is, essentially, said with an even pitch, amplitude and cadence, like McCoy is annoyed at Spock for drinking Coke instead of Pepsi, or for spitting instead of swallowing. I suspect, however, that the real McCoy ( ) would show more passion for watching wet paint dry.

 

[Kelso]

TWOK and ST XI establish a habit of Kirk's - apple eating in moments of extreme over confidence. Seems reasonable to me.

.

The apple in XI, along with his overtly silly behavior, was part of Kirk's "performance" while taking the Kobayashi Maru. He was flaunting his ease during the test and exaggerating the effortlessness with which he defeated it. He wanted to be caught cheating and was making no effort to hide it- to show his disdain for the supposed "no-win scenario."

This is the trait that set him apart from his peers and led to his defeat of Nero when any other officer would have fled.

Also, it was funny.

 

[SilentP]

Does Urban at least give it the Kelley spin, where he makes 'Vulcan' sound a little like 'fucking' -- which is part of what makes the original reading so on target, as in 'are you out of your fucking mind?'

Yup, he definitely does. The 'ul' gets a lot less emphasis than the rest of it, so it does kind of come out as 'Vulcan'.

 

[Vonstadt]

Wrath of Khan hands down. I had fun watching most of Star Trek 09, but overall it never came close to the feel and atmosphere of TWoK, which is still a nice stand alone film 27 years later.

And has no time travel.

Vons

 

[Bones2]

The apple in XI, along with his overtly silly behavior, was part of Kirk's "performance" while taking the Kobayashi Maru. He was flaunting his ease during the test and exaggerating the effortlessness with which he defeated it. He wanted to be caught cheating and was making no effort to hide it- to show his disdain for the supposed "no-win scenario."

This is the trait that set him apart from his peers and led to his defeat of Nero when any other officer would have fled.

Also, it was funny.

Oh, I see. Funny as embarrassingly bad funny.

 

[Doggeh]

I'm honestly gonna have to go with XI over TWoK. I really love both movies but Im slightly more fond of XI since its essentially what got me into the Star Trek fandom.

Gonna have to add though, that of the older movies, Undiscovered Country is my favorite.

 

[Kelso]

If you're saying that to a near-stranger ET, that is probably akin to addressing an African-American as 'crazy nigger' since you're insulting heritage and intelligence. '

That's needlessly inflammatory.

A more accurate analogy would be, "Who is that red-headed bastard?" or, "Who is that chubby bastard?" or, "Who is that Russian bastard?"

None of which seem inappropriate given Spock's somewhat snide comments about Kirk's father's death... which were made in front of an assembly of Kirk's peers.

Oh, I see. Funny as embarrassingly bad funny.

Humor is subjective. IMO, the humor in XI was at least as effective as anything else the franchise has done- more so in some cases.

 

[Cryogenic]

If you're saying that to a near-stranger ET, that is probably akin to addressing an African-American as 'crazy nigger' since you're insulting heritage and intelligence. '

That's needlessly inflammatory.

A more accurate analogy would be, "Who is that red-headed bastard?" or, "Who is that chubby bastard?" or, "Who is that Russian bastard?"

None of which seem inappropriate given Spock's somewhat snide comments about Kirk's father's death... which were made in front of an assembly of Kirk's peers.

Erm, you seem to be referring to, "Who was that pointy-eared bastard?" which I wrote in response to trevanian, but trevanian was referring to my earlier post and the line, "Are you out of your Vulcan mind?" Please read back.

 

[JarodRussell]

Bastard is actually pretty intense regarding Spock. Bastard child. And it would hit Spock pretty hard, given Spock's background of having a human mother which is not entirely accepted in Vulcan society.

Pointed-eared is simply racist. It's taking a physical attribute that you can't do anything about and using it against you.

So the nigger analogy is not far-fetched.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

If you're saying that to a near-stranger ET, that is probably akin to addressing an African-American as 'crazy nigger' since you're insulting heritage and intelligence. '

That's needlessly inflammatory.

A more accurate analogy would be, "Who is that red-headed bastard?" or, "Who is that chubby bastard?" or, "Who is that Russian bastard?"

None of which seem inappropriate given Spock's somewhat snide comments about Kirk's father's death... which were made in front of an assembly of Kirk's peers.

More like "black bastard" or "thick-lipped bastard" or (since Spock was also a crypto-Jewish figure) "hook-nosed bastard." Pretty inflammatory. Sure, Spock was being a bastard but his pointy ears (established in DS9's "Improbable Cause" as an ethnic slur) had nothing to do with it, any more than a black or jewish man's skin color, lips or nose shape has anything to do with him being a bastard.

 

[Kelso]

Erm, you seem to be referring to, "Who was that pointy-eared bastard?" which I wrote in response to trevanian, but trevanian was referring to my earlier post and the line, "Are you out of your Vulcan mind?" Please read back.

Yeah, I seem to have gotten my wires crossed during that reply.

More like "black bastard" or "thick-lipped bastard" or (since Spock was also a crypto-Jewish figure) "hook-nosed bastard." Pretty inflammatory. Sure, Spock was being a bastard but his pointy ears (established in DS9's "Improbable Cause" as an ethnic slur) had nothing to do with it, any more than a black or jewish man's skin color, lips or nose shape has anything to do with him being a bastard.

I see your point... but I'm not convinced that anything quite so severe was intended in the scene.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

Thing is, as a casual viewing of Mad Men will show, racial attitudes which are today horrifying were once considered less severe as well.

Dana Carvey once pointed out that McCoy's put-downs of Spock were always unconscionably racist if we are to take Trek at its allegorical word. And really, I don't see how giving another sentient being flak for the shape of his ears, color of his blood (green ice water indeed) and internal lay-out and his race's devotion to logic over emotion is any different* from giving another human being flak for the shape his body parts, color of his skin or his religious/cultural/philosophical beliefs. In a way, I think that was kind of the point of McCoy--here we had a real word style racist who was not a bad guy, not really. In that sense, he was a lot like Archie Bunker--sure, Archie may call Meathead a Polack but he ultimately loved the guy. His anti-black and anti-Jewish sentiments were often softened by actual contact with blacks and Jews he grudgingly liked and respected. Guy was still a bigot and so was McCoy.

(Of course, in Lt. Styles, we got our bad racist, and even he was offered redemption in the end.)

Where Trek XI went wrong was in putting those kind of nasty sentiments in Kirk's mouth, who--though he tolerated McCoy's bigoted comments--never really showed that he carried such sentiments himself or, if he did, that he kept a tight lid on them. (In the few cases where Kirk does use racist taunts against Spock--"Little Girls," "This Side..."--it's as a calculated stratagem.) Also, by having McCoy later use that kind of language with a man he just met, it made Bones's attitude seem reflexive rather than what was suggested in TOS, that they were part of a long-developed antagonism.

*Actually, there is a difference, one which makes SF so dangerous when aliens are used as allegories for different "races" of human: aliens can be realistically portrayed as possessing intrinsically different temperaments and abilities--average strength and IQ, for example--in a way that has been debunked time and again when applied to humans, who are 99.9% identical genetically. But that's a whole 'nother kettle of eel-birds.

 

[Kelso]

^ Good post. I don't really disagree with any part of it- relating to the original series. Kirk's comment, however, while mean-spirited, struck me as merely a sardonic jab (made in private) at a guy who had just publicly dressed him down about his daddy issues- not representative of any particular racial bigotry.

My point about trevanian's post was that the example he cited (despite my inadvertently attributing it to the wrong Vulcan jab- oops) is deeply rooted in the American racial history... which is not really applicable to the Human/Vulcan relationship. Whatever prejudices or bigotry that exists there wouldn't carry the same history or elicit the same emotions as specific words and phrases would in 20th/21st century America.

What I'm trying to say is that jabs at Vulcans don't carry the elicit the same emotional response in the audience that racial epithets between human races would... and don't feel as inappropriate to me. Perhaps this, as you point out, is the problem with using alien species as allegories for other races.

 

[trevanian]

I have a tendency to want context for a remark, so when there is something like this heritage slur issue, it is easy for me to figure it is like residual human disdain for Vulcans dating back to the 'holding humans back' stuff from lil ENTERPRISE era ... which for some could be the equivalent of 'the man keepin' me down' type stuff from recent decades.

Although then, if you buy into the ENT timeline as part of TOS, there is a bigger prob for me ... I could just barely accept the idea of TOS being only 3 centuries ahead, but the idea that we wasted nearly a whole century (206?- to 215?) after warp drive just spinning our heels really makes it not work. I see a couple centuries just between what I could stomach of Archer's time and Kirk's, which is double-damning given the Riker FC comment about everything changing after Cochrane's flight.

But that is another thread ...

 

[Kegg]

Also, by having McCoy later use that kind of language with a man he just met, it made Bones's attitude seem reflexive rather than what was suggested in TOS, that they were part of a long-developed antagonism.

It was also reflexive of the writers, too, here's stuff the old McCoy said so let's give it to our guy. McCoy's use of language also came from a long begruding but antagonistic friendship with Spock - it always seemed to me like he was trying to get under his skin, as quite often his racial slurs were in the same breath as an appeal to some emotional sentiment rather than logic. I just didn't get the impression McCoy would start insulting random Vulcans he'd just met, but evidently Orci & Kurtzmann thought otherwise.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

Exactly! It was an unthinking attempt to give us Star Trek's Greatest Hits (also on this double album "Creepy Crawly Mind Control," "Sulu with a Sword" and "Kirk Bangs a Green Girl") rather than develop a real character. (And yes, I did say this was my third favorite Trek film--I had fun in spite of its legion of idiocies.)

Oh, and a quote about Spock from Phil Dick? Are you serious, man? I think I just officially went gay.

(Be afraid. Be very afraid.)

 

[Kegg]

Exactly! It was an unthinking attempt to give us Star Trek's Greatest Hits (also on this double album "Creepy Crawly Mind Control," "Sulu with a Sword" and "Kirk Bangs a Green Girl") rather than develop a real character.

I actually liked their twist on the green girl thing. They made it part of the frat boy antics that define their take on young Kirk, right up to the freezing whenever some hint of commitment is given.

Oh, and a quote about Spock from Phil Dick? Are you serious, man? I think I just officially went gay.

It's actually part of a longer bit about Spock, from his introduction to the Golden Men. I wanted to include more of it but I didn't have space so I went for a rather choice sentence. The idea Phil then suggests of Leonard Nimoy as his psychotherapist is, well, geek heaven.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

In all honesty, none of it--even the "racist" comments about and toward Spock--really bothered me. Indeed, I ate the movie up when I was sitting in the theater. It's only when I put it under the microscope that it begins to bother me--and even that's mostly theoretical.

And I remember that PKD essay. It always heartened me that in a sea of SF writers who had nothing but nasty stuff to say about Trek, my favorite writer of them all loved it.

EDIT: I was momentarily confused by your name change and low "rank," but it didn't take me long to realize who I was talking to. Good to see again, old friend!

 

[Kegg]

In all honesty, none of it--even the "racist" comments about and toward Spock--really bothered me. Indeed, I ate the movie up when I was sitting in the theater. It's only when I put it under the microscope that it begins to bother me--and even that's mostly theoretical.

Indeed. Honesty, I only noticed the 'Out of your Vulcan mind' problem when it came up in this thread. In the theatre, I had next to no problems with this movie. I was a little tired by the third act and was nonplussed with Nero... but that was basically it.

In some respects they handled stuff in ways that surprised me and would be a lot smarter then anything I could come up with - like Uhura.

My problem with a remake of the original series is you'd have a bunch of white guys as the leads - while that can be fine for box office (hello Dark Knight) - people would at least expect a romantic interest character to take up some screentime. I'd assumed they'd create a new character to fill that role, and that's what I likely would have done.

Instead they took an iconic character, gave her more of a personality, and hooked her up with Spock - and every beat of that just felt right. Making it a Kirk/Spock/Uhura film rather than the old trinity was both a good call and even reflected the way society has changed since the 1960s - back then, it was enough for Uhura to simply exist, but these days she'd better have authority and intelligence to seem at all relevant.

So I don't want to imply I'm entirely aghast at the script's handling of character, basically.

And I remember that PKD essay. It always heartened me that in a sea of SF writers who had nothing but nasty stuff to say about Trek, my favorite writer of them all loved it.

Indeed. I also liked in another essay he wrote, when lamenting the absence of ideas and the emphasis of spectacle in sci-fi films of the late 1970s, he ruefully observed Star Trek was a more solid sci-fi production than any of them.

EDIT: I was momentarily confused by your name change and low "rank," but it didn't take me long to realize who I was talking to. Good to see again, old friend!

Likewise, Brutal Strudel. You'd fallen off in posting around the time I left, so it's nice to see you back as well.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

I thought the Spock/Uhura pairing was brilliant. There was an undercurrent of flirtation between the two in TOS so, while surprising, it was hardly out of left field.

Oh, and I remember that other essay, too. My only problem with that one was that he was taking aim at Alien, one of my all-time favorites. (The story is, he was pissed at Scott et al., for freezing him out of Blade Runner).