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Kirk cheating death?

Warped9

Admiral
Admiral
Of the eleven Trek films only TMP and to some extent TWoK resonate with genuine authenticity to me. And over the years I’ve aired my isues with TWoK which I’ve long come to feel that it is more like an alternate timeline event in how it plays out.

Perhaps one of the most significant things that doesn’t ring true for me yet could easily be overlooked is a line of dialogue. Near the end of the film Kirk (speaking to David Marcus) expresses that he’s never faced death, or at least not like recently. He says that all he’s ever done is cheat death and pat himself on the back for his cleverness.

It’s a nice bit of dialogue, well delivered, and it fits nicely with how events have unfolded. But after pondering this line I’ve come to regard it increasingly as…WTF?

It just doesn’t ring true even if we accept that Kirk is presently enveloped with grief over the death of his best friend. Yet the Kirk we know up to this point has indeed faced death at least several times. And that’s excluding having taken the “no win” test twice before beating the program on the third try. Kirk has indeed looked death in the face.

Ignoring ST09 since it’s a reboot continuity we know little of Kirk’s immediate family. We know nothing of his parents (unless one accepts some of the tidbits offered up in Diane Carey’s Final Frontier and Best Destiny novels which carry no “official” weight). We do know he has an older brother although we don’t know how much older he is. We know his brother Sam is married and has three sons (re: “What Are Little Girls Made Of?”) of which we’ve met only one of them (re: “Operation—Annihilate”). We don’t know what happened to the other two nephews, whether they were adopted or not, how old they were and whether or not they survived the parasite infestation on Deneva.

The earliest reference we have that Kirk faced death. at least on a large scale. was while being caught on Tarsus IV during the Kodos massacre while Kirk was a teenager (re: “Conscience Of The King”). We don’t know whether Kirk was alone or with family at the time, but we can surmise that a teenager witnessing large numbers of people herded off to execution could be a potentially traumatizing experience

The next time we know Kirk faces death is when his mentor Captain Garrovock is killed by a vampiric cloud creature (re: “Obsession”). We don’t know the exact circumstances and whether Lt. Kirk actually witnessed Garrovick’s death, but we do know it weighs heavily on his conscience even eleven years later such that he feels compelled to risk much to destroy the creature.

He next faces death when he must kill his best friend (at the time) of fifteen years, Gary Mitchell (re: “Where No Man Has Gone Before”). Something like that is going to be felt even if you know you haven’t any choice.

Next Kirk has to allow and watch the death of a woman he loves, Edith Keeler, in order to restore history and save billions (re: “The City On The Edge Of Forever”). Breaking up is hard to do, but this has gotta be really tough.

In “The Galileo Seven” Kirk is forced to abandon members of his crew including his two closest friends to their fate. For all he knew at the time they were as good as dead.

In “Operation—Annihilate” Kirk finds his brother dead and witnesses his sister-in-law die. In extent the lives of his nephew and his close friend Spock hang in the balance along with the lives of millions on Deneva.

In “The Doomsday Machine” Kirk watches a friend sacrifice himself and then soon after faces the very real possibilty he might meet the same fate. In “The Immunity Syndrome” Kirk has to face that he, his crew and his ship quite likely might not survive. In “The Ultimate Computer” hundreds of fellow Starfleet personnel are killed by Kirk’s ship. In “Return To Tomorrow” Kirk believes Spock has to be sacrificed in order to stop Henock. And in “The Tholian Web” Kirk faces possible and likely death while stranded alone in interphase space.

Finally in TMP Kirk witnesses the death of a lover, Lori Ciana (re: GR’s novelization of TMP), in a transporter mishap.

We see Kirk has faced death easily a dozen times. Those are only the incidents we know of yet they’re more than most people are likely to encounter in a lifetime. And we haven’t considered the numerous number of close calls where his survival or that of his friends, his crew and his ship had any real guarantee.

We have ample precedence to underline the fallacy of Kirk’s statement in TWoK no matter how keenly he felt witnessing Spock’s death. Kirk’s experiences are part of what he is and support why he fights so hard to live and to save others. Yes, he cheats death, but largely because he has faced it personally square on. He knows it’s a fight he cannot win ultimately in the long run, but he continues to fight death as long as he can because he believes life matters.

Kirk has faced death and it’s part of what makes him who he is, the leader he is and the man we admire and root for.
 
I agree w/ you completely, Warped. I've always felt that the line in STII rang false, while working dramatically in the film itself. I guess they hoped people watching STII would have no knowledge of the series.

Doug
 
I also agree. That line in ST2 has always bugged me. You mentioned Operation-Annihilate-- it has always driven me positively crazy that he found his brother dead and really, that loss wasnt addressed at all. I think they are both examples of less than stellar writing.
 
while being caught on Tarsus IV during the Kodos massacre while Kirk was a teenager (re: “Conscience Of The King”). We don’t know whether Kirk was alone or with family at the time, but we can surmise that a teenager witnessing large numbers of people herded off to execution could be a potentially traumatizing experience
And helpless to stop it. Yep. That's facing death all right.;)

The dialogue in II always did strike me as having been written by a non-fan. And that whole thing where David referred to Savik as "him" & "he." :wtf: That was almost laughable.:(
 
I also agree. That line in ST2 has always bugged me. You mentioned Operation-Annihilate-- it has always driven me positively crazy that he found his brother dead and really, that loss wasnt addressed at all. I think they are both examples of less than stellar writing.
Today that probably would be adressed because of how television writing is generally practiced. In fairness we really don't know what kind of relationship existed between Kirk and his older brother. Also we can reasonably assume that Kirk is dealing with a potentially deadly situation for an entire population and as a professional he has to maintain his composure particularly in public and in the eyes of his crew.

And in the real world there is precedent that individuals faced with horrifying situations often have to somewhat turn themselves off emotionally for the duration of a crises and then deal with their feelings later and in private.

I don't doubt someone like Kirk in such a situation would experience something quite acutely, but they wouldn't be the kind of person to parade their grief publicly. I can appreciate this view perhaps partly because of my age and the times I grew up in as opposed to today where expressions of grief are often trotted out publucly as if to prove someone is really suffering.

Candidly I'm rather cynically of what we've seen over the past several years where expressions of grief and suffering have become something of a ceremony performed in public over someone that is often a total stranger to most others.
 
He says that all he’s ever done is cheat death and pat himself on the back for his cleverness.

It’s a nice bit of dialogue, well delivered, and it fits nicely with how events have unfolded. But after pondering this line I’ve come to regard it increasingly as…WTF?

It just doesn’t ring true even if we accept that Kirk is presently enveloped with grief over the death of his best friend. Yet the Kirk we know up to this point has indeed faced death at least several times.

They dealt with this in the original script. The line originally went like this: "I've never faced death. Oh, sure, there were those guys with the red shirts... but no one who really mattered."
 
Although it would be foolish to maintain that he's never faced death, we are introduced as early as The Corbomite Maneuver to his unerring knack for cheating it!
 
Of course he cheated death throughout the original series. How many times did one of his crew die only to be returned to life by the end of the episode? I'm not talking about his brother, the endless supply of redshirts, and the like. The weight of those deaths would be forgotten by the time the episode returned from commercial. I'm talking about McCoy's death in Shore Leave, or Scotty's death in The Changeling, or even Spock's blindness in the aforementioned Operation: Annihilate! All reversed and forgotten by episode's end.
 
Of course he cheated death throughout the original series. How many times did one of his crew die only to be returned to life by the end of the episode? I'm not talking about his brother, the endless supply of redshirts, and the like. The weight of those deaths would be forgotten by the time the episode returned from commercial. I'm talking about McCoy's death in Shore Leave, or Scotty's death in The Changeling, or even Spock's blindness in the aforementioned Operation: Annihilate! All reversed and forgotten by episode's end.


Don't forget Rand being blinked into nothingness in Charlie X.....
 
I give Kirk's statement about "cheating death" some slack as he is obviously grieving for his best friend. McCoy sets him straight in TSFS: When Kirk says, "What have I done?" after he destroys the Enterprise, McCoy replies, "What you had to do, what you always do: turn death into a fighting chance for life." Or something like that..
 
I give Kirk's statement about "cheating death" some slack as he is obviously grieving for his best friend. McCoy sets him straight in TSFS: When Kirk says, "What have I done?" after he destroys the Enterprise, McCoy replies, "What you had to do, what you always do: turn death into a fighting chance for life." Or something like that..
That's true. I kind of forgot about that.
 
I imagine Kirk and Death, standing on a sidewalk in New York City, a folding card table between them.

On the table a game of three card monte. Kirk shuffles the cards.

Death lays down his money and nervously select a card ...


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