So were the post-"Unity" books! And we BOTH explained to you what that larger plan was!
The DS9 Relaunch - will it ever return to its roots again?
- Thread starter Jefferies
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So were the post-"Unity" books! And we BOTH explained to you what that larger plan was!
Yes. It is also an uncontested fact that that change in direction will not even occur until The Typhon Pact: The Rough Beasts of Empire is published in 2010. It is also an uncontested fact that we do not know what direction the DS9R will go in after Rough Beasts.
I did not claim that the DS9R has not undergone a change in direction. Nor did I claim that the DS9R has not had delays. Why would you imply that I said that?
I did claim that the Ascendants arc was not delayed, because, as I noted, the arc was always intended to come after the MU arc. Was it delayed insofar as the novels themselves were delayed? Yes. But it was not delayed in the sense of the order of which arc came first.
No, we don't. Claiming that the novels published after Unity but before Rough Beasts had no overall plan is factually inaccurate, and blatantly so. This is not a matter of opinion.
And considering that every single DS9R novel published so far since Unity has either introduced, continued or resolved an ongoing arc, one-shots haven't even existed since Unity.
Edited to add:
I am thoroughly confident that you will recover from my injurious choice of words.
I don't care if the reader doesn't care. If the reader throws a temper tantrum over a three-year delay in an industry that routinely has delays that long or longer, then that reader is being unreasonable. It's demanding instant satisfaction because one has been conditioned to by film and TV. Well, this isn't TV, it's publishing. It takes longer. If you don't like it, too bad. Get the fuck over it.
Which is completely irrelevant to the point of whether or not a three-year delay is reasonable in the publishing industry.
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
It's not a matter of "recovering", Sci. It's a matter of taking you seriously.
Sci, Thrawn.
"Warpath" was initially planned to be one of two books supposed to quickly explore the miror universe - after which, the plan was most likely to continue the ascendants/dominion storyline. Due to delays, this was not feasible (meaning, the plan changed).
And after the mirror universe years long arc was done, a new editor decided to introduce the typhon pact as the new villain - again, changing DS9's direction.
Sci, you "don't care if the reader doesn't care"? Nobody cares!
And S&S does care that the reader doesn't care (unless they want to be put out of business) - that's because they want to sell their books and the reader buys them.
The plan didn't change, it was just delayed. Christ.
And yes, there is a change with the Typhon Pact... but there were 11 DS9 novels published between Unity and that decision, 7 within the relaunch time-frame, and those were impeccably planned. The plan got shifted in terms of time, but not in terms of execution.
Once again - claiming there was no post-Unity plan is factually false. Claiming WoDS9 had no cohesive plan is factually false. And to assume the new editor will ignore the Ascendants completely just seems silly to me. If you took over an ongoing series that had been foreshadowing and developing something for 8 years, would you up and ignore it? I do not think so.
Yes, TP is taking it in a new direction. But so did Gateways! That wasn't in Marco's original plan; it was a crossover series commissioned by Ordover! If introducing a new villain = being disjointed, then it's happened already once.
If you're trying to make the point that the series might lose readers, then sure, you're right. But a new start with TP might gain it readers too. Who the hell knows? Arguing over hypotheticals is a waste of everyone's time.
And yes, there is a change with the Typhon Pact... but there were 11 DS9 novels published between Unity and that decision, 7 within the relaunch time-frame, and those were impeccably planned. The plan got shifted in terms of time, but not in terms of execution.
Once again - claiming there was no post-Unity plan is factually false. Claiming WoDS9 had no cohesive plan is factually false. And to assume the new editor will ignore the Ascendants completely just seems silly to me. If you took over an ongoing series that had been foreshadowing and developing something for 8 years, would you up and ignore it? I do not think so.
Yes, TP is taking it in a new direction. But so did Gateways! That wasn't in Marco's original plan; it was a crossover series commissioned by Ordover! If introducing a new villain = being disjointed, then it's happened already once.
If you're trying to make the point that the series might lose readers, then sure, you're right. But a new start with TP might gain it readers too. Who the hell knows? Arguing over hypotheticals is a waste of everyone's time.
Totally agree! "Rising Son" was really out of left field and "The Left Hand of Destiny" has a flavor all of its own.
Even the four MG books are quite different to each other!
You're the one who has been complaining about a delay of only three years in an industry that routinely has far longer intervals between the publication of books in a series. You are the one who is hurting your own credibility by making a complaint that cannot be taken seriously.
1. You seem to have an inconsistent definition of "the plan." When you say, "the plan," are you referring to the plan of what arcs to depict in what order, or are you referring to the decision of what novels or how many novels to use to depict a given arc? When I refer to "the plan," I'm referring to the story itself -- what arcs to depict and in what order to depict them. That they decided to do the MU arc in three books instead of two doesn't matter much in that definition.
2. That there were changes in how that arc was going to be depicted is not being contested, but now you are shifting your goalposts. First you were claiming that there was NO plan for post-Unity novels. Now you are claiming that there WAS a plan but it was changed. Which is it?
That's not changing the direction again. That's the first change in the plan of what arcs to depict and in what order to depict them that we know of. (And that's assuming that your assumption that the Ascendants arc would come immediately after the MU arc is accurate, which is not a given.)
Quoted for Truth.
I expect that S&S is run by mature adults who know that a three-year delay in a book series is incredibly common and that they expect their readers to be mature adults, too.
I repeat: Get the fuck over it.
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
Apparently, we define "plan" differrently.
For me, delaying the book line by years is included in the notion of "changing the plan".
We agree on both points.
Tell me, after the typhon pact book (which, let's assume, is successful), do you think the editors will continue with a typhon pact storyline or will decide to loose momentum (again) and treat the ascendants? Who can tell, correct?
As for me, I think treating the ascendants in a medium-sized story in an anthology has a good chance of happening (and, after all the foreshadowing, is not desirable).
Then, what are you doing on this forum, Thrawn?
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ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
Well, being in Australia, I'm used to grooming shops to make sure they order exactly what I want/need.
In the 80s, Galaxy Bookshop used to order about 30 of each title, knowing they had about 25 regular ST customers, but those five extra copies used to fly off the shelves - to whoever got into the shop first.
I used to cherrypick from several different stores, at whoseever's shop got the books in first, but sometimes I'd miss out. I'd have different favourite shops depending on who was succeeding in getting their orders in faster.
The manager at Galaxy used to try to increase her order every month, because she always sold out fast, but her big bosses used to cut down her order. I learned that having my copy special-ordered ensured they would always have a copy for me, and - before the days of computer ordering - it prompted them to order extras for the shelves and not miss any obscure titles.
It seems to me, decades on, they now get in about 60 of each new air-freighted ST title. At least 20 of each new title for the shelves, which vanish over several weeks, only to be topped up by the local imports a few months later. I've had to groom several managers over the years, but at least I never miss ST titles.
The conversation has got a bit heated and whilst I'm going to wait and see how the time-jump works out, I'm going to have to jump to the defense of ProtoAvatar. He's claimed that the plans have changed - and this has been repeatedly rubbished by at least two posters. However, the fact that the plan was 'changed' was explicitly revealed when I posted the following question:
To which, Christopher replied that:
So, yes, the plans DID change.
To which, Christopher replied that:
So, yes, the plans DID change.
Dude, I and Thrawn both agreed with him that plans changed when Margaret took over and commissioned The Typhon Pact: The Rough Beasts of Empire to be set in 2382. What Thrawn and I are saying is that the plan that Marco had to depict the MU arc prior to the Ascendants arc was not changed just because the MU arc ended up needing three books instead of two.
^ Right.
He was saying that the relaunch had had "no coherent plan" since Unity, and that was complete nonsense.
And, though this gets into the hypotheticals I usually avoid, I would think it would be incredibly obvious that whoever gets the reins of the DS9 relaunch would not ignore 8 years worth of buildup on the Ascendants story, so I doubt that plan will go to waste, even if it is executed quite differently. As I discussed in my other thread, in a lot of ways it makes more sense for the plan to come to fruition 5 years in the future than it does sooner.
He was saying that the relaunch had had "no coherent plan" since Unity, and that was complete nonsense.
And, though this gets into the hypotheticals I usually avoid, I would think it would be incredibly obvious that whoever gets the reins of the DS9 relaunch would not ignore 8 years worth of buildup on the Ascendants story, so I doubt that plan will go to waste, even if it is executed quite differently. As I discussed in my other thread, in a lot of ways it makes more sense for the plan to come to fruition 5 years in the future than it does sooner.
Pretty much everywhere else, ProtoAvatar seems to use "the plan" meaning "the planned storyline." Here, PA means "the planned schedule." Those are very different things. Whether that's deliberate goalpost-moving or innocent confusion I don't know, but it hasn't helped the discussion.
ProtoAvatar is talking about changes in the plans involving the stuff already published, from Unity to now, implying changes to the storyline, when only the schedule changed. The change Christopher's talking about relates to books that haven't been published yet. They are not talking about the same thing.
The others have made this point well, but let me underline it. ProtoAvatar seems to be claiming that the shift in focus after Unity has something to do with the change in editors, and that's dead wrong. Marco Palmieri was the editor behind every DS9 post-finale novel published to date. Margaret had to finish off The Soul Key and The Never Ending Sacrifice after Marco was laid off, but Marco was the one who commissioned them. So everything that's happened in the post-finale DS9 novels to date has been planned by Marco along with the authors he's commissioned. The impact of the change in editors on the storyline has not been felt yet.
It's a shame that we couldn't have seen Marco's plan for the series he'd shepherded from the start seen through to the conclusion of, at least, the 'Ninth Season' though. As with the stoppage of the season at Soul Key it feels like we've had the season curtailed at the mid-point.
Everyone's been talking about this time jump like it's the end of stories in 2377. The way The Soul Key ended I dont get that feeling at all. Admittedly now Margaret's gone the next editor could change things entirely, but the start of Taran'atar's new arc in particular is something the must follow on immediately.
Thanks to the way The Soul Key ended, and set up for the continuation of the relaunch narrative, it feels to me that despite the jump to a 2382 DS9 story the 2377 ones will still continue at their own pace. It's a bit like we can have both TNG stories set in the 2380s as well as ones on the Enterprise-D.
There were no "seasons" in Marco's approach to the series. That's a conceit imposed on the books by some fans, and it's an awkward fit at best. It has absolutely nothing to do with how the series' arc is actually constructed.
In fact, that's just what Margaret wasn't going to do. She was going to jump it to 2382 and keep it there, and any fill-ins of the gap would come at some later time. But as you say, the new editor could do things differently.
In fact, that's just what Margaret wasn't going to do. She was going to jump it to 2382 and keep it there, and any fill-ins of the gap would come at some later time. But as you say, the new editor could do things differently.
I never said it had anything to do with the way the arc was constructed, Christopher. It's just that that is what it feels like - and I wouldn't be the first person to have felt that 'Season 8' began with Avatar and ended with Unity and that 'Season 9' began with WoDS9 (although I've read some people suggest that 'Olympus Descending' is the 'season finale'). It might be a conceit, but it's one that feels right with the novels and it's one that's been discussed since the novels began - and it's certainly not awkward to compare a run of the continuation novels of a tv show with how the tv show itself was formatted.
In the same way, I consider 'House of Cards' to 'Dark Allies' the first season, 'Excalibur: Requiem' to 'Stone and Anvil' and 'After the Fall' onwards the first, second and third 'seasons' of New Frontier, the first three Vanguard the first 'season' of that show and the first four Titan novels (and the three Destiny novels) the first 'season' of that show.
It always seemed to me that if one insisted on a "season" model, it would make more sense to treat Unity as the February sweeps event and Olympus Descending as the finale -- in part because Olympus actually takes place at the very end of 2376 and thus corresponds chronologically to where a season finale would fall.
But of course they aren't seasons, period. Yes, Unity is a point of transition within the series. Olympus Descending is another point of transition. It's arbitrary to label either one as a "season finale" and pretend the other isn't an equally important transition. It's deliberately misrepresenting the facts to force the series into the illusion of a structure it simply does not follow.
I think it's an insult to the books to try to pretend they're actually TV shows rather than respecting the fact that they're books and follow their own non-TV-based storytelling approach. Marco and his authors deliberately embraced the potential of the literary form to do things that could not be done in a television series, and I think it's missing the whole point to insist on this pretense that it's still on TV. I also think it's disrespectful, because it implies the books are merely an inadequate substitute for television and that you have to pretend they're on TV in order for them to have any worth.
Titan is too messy to be fit into a season model. It has a 2-parter preceding the proper mission; then a "second pilot" that begins the mission proper; then a jump forward three months to a later adventure within that mission; then a jump forward eight months to a huge cataclysmic crossover event; then two books (counting Synthesis) that return to the mission proper, but with some changes in the crew and the survey region; then an installment in another crossover event an uncertain amount of time after those two books.
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