But they could have done that already 100 years earlier when the Ba'ku "exiled" them.
Insurrection was the best NG movie.
- Thread starter Chrisisall
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But they could have done that already 100 years earlier when the Ba'ku "exiled" them.
Consider me slapped.
This is gonna be good!
Whether you get a planet for being bad peeps, or being wanderers, what's the dif? You still get a whole planet. The distinction doesn't matter for the purposes of this discussion.
ENNNNH, wrong answer Hans. Khan CHOSE to take that planet as OPPOSED to REAL punishment.
For the most part, it's about peeps who already HAVE life wanting MORE of it. Future medicine already cures most illnesses. So, some blind peeps, or severely radiation-poisoned peeps would benefit greatly, yeah.... so fly them to the Ba'ku health spa for a month.
It wasn't an analogy (or at least not intended to be), it was to point out the convenience of moral relativism as applied by peeps in power, and how it changes with the wind. IE, if it was NOT Federation terratory, another reason could have been found/manufactured to get the same result.Uhh...What are you going for here? Who are the Native Americans in this analogy? The Ba'ku? Sure, they're being kicked out of their home, but on the other hand, the "land" (planet) was in fact owned by the Feds before the Ba'ku ever set foot on it. So the analogy doesn't really work.
You noticed!
Okay, really now, just TELL the Ba'ku that a Federation Rehab facility is going up on the other side of the planet, then leave them alone. They FOUND the planet first. Or, ASK them to leave. Or, work something besides a midnight kidnapping out.
You are a man of honour, sir.
No, this is a fun debate.
There is more than a little difference between a farm & a planet- and that makes your analogy hard for me to embrace.
THANK YOU!!!Pffft. They could have asked to come back at any time, they were just being adolescent about the whole thing.
Wait- I don't remember the Ba'ku exiling them, I remember that they left to see the galaxy, and not hang with the fuddy-dutties.
Wait- I don't remember the Ba'ku exiling them, I remember that they left to see the galaxy, and not hang with the fuddy-dutties.
Ba'ku and Son'a were one race. They travelled through the galaxy after a long war/the destruction of their own planet, until they found that small planet in the nebula. They arrived when they were very old, but the radiation made them young again. And because technology brought them only death and suffering, they decided to live without it. Rua'fo and the other Son'a were their children, probably the first generation after they landed on the planet. And they wanted to use technology, to travel through space, etc... the Ba'ku "exiled" them for this (as the Amish do with people who want to live in the modern world), a hundred years before "Insurrection". I think the novelization also states that the spaceships are the original ships they used to travel through space, and not new design.
Rua'fo called that a "sentence to death", I believe, because apparently they weren't allowed to live on that planet.
But that's crappy writing, I guess. The writers probably thought "exile from little village = exile from entire planet", but I think that's nonsense. Imagine a little village of 300-400 people on Earth, and 100 of them get exiled. No problem, just set up a new village on another continent. Heck, set it up 100 miles north. And nobody would care.
Had they been less developed they wouldn't have even been on the planet.
It's a good point, but I think in this case there is an explanation. It's revealed that the So'na and Ba'ku are the same race, and that Ru'ofo has a deep seated hatred of the Ba'ku and bitternes over their split. It wasn't practical, it was personal. He wanted the planet for his people and wanted to take that gift away from the Ba'ku. Makes sense, I think. Still a crap film, though.
Amen, brother.
That, and they simply didn't want to live in the Briar Patch (also mentioned during the movie). The fact that the Son'a didn't just set up camp somewhere else on the planet really isn't a plot hole, since it was explained pretty well internally (this movie does have plenty of actual plot holes; let's not add more!
)That's an excellent point. Who is to say that the Ba'ku desire to hold onto the planet as is is more valid than the Son'a desire to harvest the radiation?
Of course it matters. You completely missed the point. The Feds and the viewers wouldn't be upset about Kahn getting his own planet cause the Feds TOLD him to go there. It wouldn't make any sense to get upset about that. The Feds put this planet aside and said "Ok, this is Kahn's place. Done." Whereas the Ba'ku - without consulting the Feds or even making contact with them in any way - just found this planet in Fed territory and said "Hey, let's live here!" HUGE difference.
Who the hell is Hans?ENNNNH, wrong answer Hans. Khan CHOSE to take that planet as OPPOSED to REAL punishment.
Ok, so I got some of the details wrong. Conceded. It's been FOREVER since I saw that ep, and I always thought it was a really lame ep too, so it's no wonder I don't remember it all that well. But my point still stands: Kahn didn't just go and find this planet on his own and decide to settle it. The Ba'ku did.
Uhhhhh...For the most part, it's about peeps who already HAVE life wanting MORE of it. Future medicine already cures most illnesses. So, some blind peeps, or severely radiation-poisoned peeps would benefit greatly, yeah.... so fly them to the Ba'ku health spa for a month.
Considering how great you apparently think INS is, I find it bizarrely amusing that you seem to have completely forgotten that the effects one experiences from simply hanging out on the planet and letting the radiation do it's thing go away if you LEAVE the planet. This was conjectured during the movie in dialog, and can be considered proven by the fact that in Nemesis, Geordi is back to his ocular implants (after having his normal eyes completely restored during Insurrection). The effects are only permanent if you either do it the Son'a way and collect the particles, or stay on the planet forever. So, no, sending people to "the Ba'ku health spa" for a given length of time would do nothing for anyone who didn't want to just live there for the rest of their lives. The positive effects of the radiation are worthless to anyone but the Ba'ku if it cannot be harvested. But the Ba'ku insist on living on the planet and keeping the effects for themselves. There's a strong argument that they are being pretty selfish about all this.
Oh really? So despite the fact that the planet being in Fed space is brought up in dialog, emphasizing it's importance, and despite the fact that through all the TV seasons and movies that had aired up to that point, no evidence was ever given that the Feds were secretly a bunch of expansionist conquerors (not even during DS9 with all the Section 31 stuff... they did a lot of dirty things, but ALL of it was in relation to a large empire that the Feds were at war with), you have just somehow figured out that if the planet hadn't been in Fed space, the Feds still would have found SOME excuse to just swooop in and raid the place?
Boy, you're a pretty imaginative guy.
Already covered that. Planet side rehab facility = useless.You noticed!
I don't recall if the movie says how long the Ba'ku have been on the planet. If they have been there longer than the Federation has existed, then that adds validity to your argument. But it still wouldn't automatically mean the Feds are completely in the wrong to want to remove them for these reasons; it remains a gray issue. But as others have noted, what about the Son'a? If the planet does "belong" to the Ba'ku, then it belongs to the Son'a just as much.
Now THIS I agree with. Asking them before just secretly removing them would have been the way to go, and getting mixed up with the Son'a probably wasn't the best idea. There are some elements of corruption to what Admiral Dougherty was doing, but that doesn't change the fact that for the Feds to remove the Ba'ku wouldn't automatically be wrong.
Uh... I suppose so. Maybe this wasn't clear, but I was not touching the "cuts too close to the bone" comment because I probably couldn't tell you just what I think of it without breaking some forum rules.You are a man of honour, sir.
There was something akin to a civil war between the two factions. Not sure how the name divergence came along ("Ba'ku" vs "Son'a"), but the dialog in the movie clearly establishes that they were members of the same race, not just co-habitating races or something. The Son'a weren't bent on leaving the planet, they simply represented a younger group that didn't want to just throw all technology and contact with the rest of the galaxy out the window, and the resulting conflict ended with them being exiled. Ru'afo is the one that uses the word "exile," but none of the many Ba'ku in the room at the time (including the two most "main" Ba'ku characters in the movie) dispute it.Wait- I don't remember the Ba'ku exiling them, I remember that they left to see the galaxy, and not hang with the fuddy-dutties.
The fact that the Son'a (Ru'afo in particular) have grown to be bitter, vengeful bastards doesn't change the fact that it's as much their planet as the Ba'ku's.
Solid point there. My bad.
Yippie-kai-yeah, m**********r!
So...what? They gather an infinite # of particles so Federation peeps can be bombarted FOREVER???? I don't think so. The whole idea of transferring the effect was a fantasy IMO.
Not longer than they existed, but possibly longer than the Federation's claim to that sector. I'm not sure.
In many ways, I find we reach here!
EDIT: Except in our assessment of the quality of the flick.
Oh well....
Hey, is that a gortch on your nose-?
heh heh
At least with the particle harvesting, some new way to use or exploit the radiation could be discovered, leading to actual treatments and cures. Whereas going to the Baku planet for a month would help someone for exactly a month.
While I agree the movie had more than it's fair share of problems, I just wanted to clarify this one point: they didn't think that, as I recall. The only reference to the Feds' battle against the Dominion that I can remember was part of Ru'afo's big "You guys suck!" speech, which was designed to wind Admiral Dougherty up. I don't remember the exact wording, but Ru'afo runs down a list of baddies that have challenged the Feds recently, including the Borg and the Dominion, and tells the Admiral to "look in the mirror", cause the Federation is old. He equates this "oldness" with the Feds taking so many losses in wars. To be fair, the Admiral does seem affected by what is said, but then he was kind of a dumbass anyway. I don't think there's anything to suggest that anyone else - let alone the Federation as a whole - sees any connection between the positive effects of the radiation treatments and being able to beat the Dominion more easily.
There is the line from Dougherty to Picard when discussing the importance of the mission... "And warp drive turned a bunch of Romulan thugs into an empire". I may have the wording off a bit.
I believe the intent here was simply to denote the importance. How large of a scale the radiation could help people. Although it has been some time since I watched it, so my memory on exact quotes is blurry.
But that's still the rub. Why get into bed with the S'ona at all if there wasn't sometype of desperate situation at hand? Federation scientists couldn't make it work at that point in time. With time they could have probably came up with a way to remove the radiation particles without negative effects to the life on the planet below.
I was under the impression Admiral Dougherty was working under orders from the Federation Council.
For that matter... the way they used the holo-ship seemed silly and so did the duckblind.
Sensors could have been used to create schematics that would be transferred to the Holo-ship (still in orbit). Then you just beam the Ba'ku to the Holo-ship when they go to bed.
One of the few times where the more I talk about a Star Trek episode/movie, the less I like it.
When Stewart nixed Piller's Heart of Darkness treatment, the whole thing should have went into the trash (or done without Stewart). And they should have started fresh.
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I have to agree. The more I read from this thread, the more glaring the flaws seem. Before I just thought it was a boring movie.
Maybe part of the problem with the movie was me. My expectations were extremely high with Piller writing the script. I expected a strong story focused on a single character -- probably Picard -- that would move me the way Ben Sisko's story moved me with the DS9 pilot.
I have to agree. The more I read from this thread, the more glaring the flaws seem. Before I just thought it was a boring movie.
Maybe part of the problem with the movie was me. My expectations were extremely high with Piller writing the script. I expected a strong story focused on a single character -- probably Picard -- that would move me the way Ben Sisko's story moved me with the DS9 pilot.
Well... I actually sat down and watched it today.
+ Donna Murphy: She is just smoking hot in this.
+ HMS Pinafore scene where they're trying to catch Data.
+ Cinematography: This is just a beautiful film as far as the live action scenes go.
+ "We're done running from these bastards!", I've always liked Riker better than Picard. So it's nice to see him shine a bit.
+ Marina Sirtis: See Donna Murphy
+ Actual mention of the Dominion War.
+ Moment in Time stuff.
- Ba'ku: They're just presented all wrong. Unlikeable right from the start.
- Dougherty: Must mean "douchebag" in Federation standard.
- S'ona: Really? The Federation got into bed with these people? What was the advantage? A scout ship seemed to bloody the nose of one of their capital ships quite easily.
- Opening credits... I was almost asleep by the time they were over.
- Moral dilemma in this one is just plain silly (Saving Yuppies from Eminent Domain).
- Picard put over a thousand lives at risk cause the Federation Council made a decision he didn't agree with? C'mon.
- Data as a floatation device?
- Holo-Ship cloaked on planets surface just a stones throw from the village? The thing had fourteen transporters! They couldn't beam the Ba'ku from orbit?
- How in the hell did the S'ona build up enough military (manpower and technology) in less than a century to conquer two species? The film made it sound like only a few left the Ba'ku world to begin with.
- Special effects were very hit and miss.
I'll echo my earlier sentiment that this film is a mess that just doesn't really work at any level.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlV3bsafkq0
Funny review overall (as always), but I feel that point #3 is pretty accurate and probably at the heart of the problem with the movie.
Picard and Co. defending the Baku wouldn't be such a bad thing ... had they been consistently doing that in the TV show. But they've done pretty much the opposite in TNG, and suddenly the characters we watched for 11 years up to that point weren't the same anymore.
Funny review overall (as always), but I feel that point #3 is pretty accurate and probably at the heart of the problem with the movie.
Picard and Co. defending the Baku wouldn't be such a bad thing ... had they been consistently doing that in the TV show. But they've done pretty much the opposite in TNG, and suddenly the characters we watched for 11 years up to that point weren't the same anymore.
I recall a TNG episode which contradicted this. Data and Georgi talked about how Data sunk to the bottom of a lake or river because he didn't have the buoyancy to float to the surface.
They have since fixed that, didn't you get the memo?Speaking of continuity errors, Troi claimed never to have kissed Riker with a beard. She did several times during the series.
Define kiss?
Full-on mouth-to-mouth action.
I got another one. From Insurrection:
From Birthright, Pt. I:
You're just waxing technical.
Deanna was being goofy, & Data CAN breathe if he wants to seem more human; it's not a necessary function.
Throw me another, I dare ya.
Deanna was being goofy, & Data CAN breathe if he wants to seem more human; it's not a necessary function.
Throw me another, I dare ya.
It's a bad movie, Dude. There is no other way around it. But what do I know I like The Final Frontier.