Insurrection was the best NG movie.

[Chrisisall]

I just find it interesting that no one complains about Khan & Co getting THEIR own planet. And there were a few less of THOSE peeps.
I also find it interesting that if the Ba'ku's planet had no special thang goin' on, that this discussion would not even be taking place. I guess it IS human nature to want to take what that other tribe over there has.

Ahhh, so I hit the nail on the head so squarely here, no one can come back with anything?

And what about those squatters on the series "Lost"? Why is no government evicting THEM????

 

[RyuRoots]

Well, I DID reply to your point about Khan. As for your second point, I think it's less of that and more that it's been so thoroughly explained already by multiple people in this thread why the Baku/radiation thing gives an unsympathetic perspective on the Baku that there's little point in expounding further.

And I've never seen "Lost", myself.

 

[Chrisisall]

Because Khan's planet was meant as a prison, more or less.

That comment is meaningless as far as this discussion goes.

It wasn't a paradise before Ceti Alpha VI exploded, and it certainly didn't have magical immortality particles that could be harvested for medical technology to help the entire Federation.

So. It IS about what they HAVE. I'd ask again why we don't take what the Saudis have (oil) seeing as it would be of such benefit tou our Nation?
Before you say it- it's a sovereign nation, right? Don't the Ba'ku get to declare themselves sovereign too? And before you say it- the Federation laid claim to that sector first, right? Like the Native Americans we kicked out of their lands?

Nope, it's in the name of Imperialism that you speak, Ryu.

the Baku/radiation thing gives an unsympathetic perspective on the Baku

Oh, sorry, an act of Imperialism against UNSYMPATHETIC peeps. I guess that finishes the justification, eh?

 

[Chrisisall]

Once again, too close to the bone for comment?

I'll call this a moral win for my POV if there are no further challenges.

 

[Bones2]

But I'll have my comeupance!
You plick!
AH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!

I'd very much like to see you have your comeupance. But then, in my world, the comeupance for anyone who uses the word "douschebag"[sic] involves a slap round the face.

But keeping it nice, the point I'd most like to make is that the So'na have as much right to the planet as the Ba'ku. That this benefit would then be shared out to the Federation puts the morality on their side.

 

[Hober Mallow]

Well, look at fairy tales. They are some of the greatest movies ever made, they sort of come at us with the message that it was a magical idealized time, where love was more pure and men lived by a code of chivalry, and everyone lived happily ever after. In none of those stories does democracy exist. Instead, there's a good king who takes care of all his people. And it's presented as an ideal world.

A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...

Well, Star Wars was modeled after the myth, which is very different from the fairy tale. Although both may feature similiar motifs -- a hero coming of age going on a quest, an elder guide to the hero, a transcendent realm the knowledge of which the hero seeks -- in fairy tales everyone lives happily ever after, while in the myth everyone dies eventually. The myth is a metaphor for reality while the fairy tale represents a fantasy world that never existed. In the fairy tale has people living for eternity ("ever after") while the myth is all about the continual changing stages of life.

 

[Saito S]

I probably shouldn't bother, but I'm inexplicably drawn to these kinds of threads sometimes. *cracks knuckles*

Because Khan's planet was meant as a prison, more or less.

That comment is meaningless as far as this discussion goes.

How the hell is it meaningless? You asked why people didn't have a problem with Kahn getting his own planet. The fact that Kahn was FORCED to go to said planet BY the Feds as punishment could, just maybe, have something to do with why the Feds don't have a problem with him being there. And clearly, it wasn't a planet of any particular value... hence, a good place to stick Kahn.
You brought Kahn and his exile up in the first place, and you call the above response meaningless? That doesn't make a lot of sense.

So. It IS about what they HAVE.

Uh... yeah. As you said earlier, if the Ba'ku planet didn't have this crazy radiation, there wouldn't be a fuss. This isn't in dispute. For that matter... The fact that the controversy is over the radiation is in itself an argument against the idea that the Feds actions are imperialistic. If the planet was just a planet, and the Feds decided to kick the Ba'ku off cause they just need another planet to colonize, that might be imperialistic, since there are plenty of other planets they could colonize. If the resource in question were, say, dilithium, and they had to either evict or kill the Ba'ku to get it, that might be imperialistic, since there are plenty of other sources of it. I said "might" for both of the above examples cause it is already the Feds planet, unlike the examples you gave (below) of oil in Saudi Arabia or the European colonization of Native America, but still, my point is that in those scenarios, you'd have a much stronger argument.

But it's NOT about the planet or a common resource that the Feds already have some of, and just want more. It's about a completely unique, non-duplicatable property that has the potential to improve the living condition and prolong the lifespan of BILLIONS of people by very significant amounts. Said property can only be obtained by harvesting these particles, which can only be found on this planet, and cannot be harvested without removing the Ba'ku. You seriously equate that with the many real-world examples of imperialism that have come up in real human history which basically boiled down to "We want more land/stuff. They have some. And they can't stop us. Let's take it!"

I'd ask again why we don't take what the Saudis have (oil) seeing as it would be of such benefit tou our Nation?
Before you say it- it's a sovereign nation, right? Don't the Ba'ku get to declare themselves sovereign too?

On a Federation world? No, they don't get to "declare themselves sovereign", not on that planet anyway, without first contacting the Feds first and working something out.

And before you say it- the Federation laid claim to that sector first, right? Like the Native Americans we kicked out of their lands?

Uhh... What are you going for here? Who are the Native Americans in this analogy? The Ba'ku? Sure, they're being kicked out of their home, but on the other hand, the "land" (planet) was in fact owned by the Feds before the Ba'ku ever set foot on it. So the analogy doesn't really work.

Nope, it's in the name of Imperialism that you speak, Ryu.

the Baku/radiation thing gives an unsympathetic perspective on the Baku

Oh, sorry, an act of Imperialism against UNSYMPATHETIC peeps. I guess that finishes the justification, eh?

You really love those smilies. Now let me ask YOU a question, regarding the supposed "Imperialism" of the Feds actions.

What, exactly, gives the Ba'ku the right to hoard the positive effects of the life-enhancing particles for themselves? What gives them the right to lay claim to a world with such a unique resource when that world isn't their original home, and in fact, exists within the territory of a well-established civilization? Why do the rights of the Ba'ku supercede the rights of the billions of Federation citizens who could benefit from the tapping of this resource?

Once again, too close to the bone for comment?

I'll call this a moral win for my POV if there are no further challenges.

I won't touch the "too close to the bone" thing.
But, moral victory? Further challenges? This ain't a murder trial, dude.

 

[BillJ]

Points not in contention:

- Ba'ku are not native to the planet in question.
- Ba'ku came to the world after nearly destroying their own world.
- Ba'ku were highly advanced.
- Ba'ku at one point shared world with the S'ona.
- Not being native to the planet in question the Ba'ku were not living their natural life-spans.
- Ba'ku had a limited population (600).
- There was a belief among Federation scientists that the radiation could be extracted from the rings and used to benefit countless individuals that did not live on the world.
- The world was within the Federation's borders.

There is nothing there that suggests that removing the Ba'ku from the planet would have any adverse effects other than returning them to their normal life-spans.

So from my perspective this isn't akin to "The Trail of Tears".

Though why the Federation thinks that people living longer would somehow make them better able to defeat the likes of the Dominion is anybodys guess? I don't think the Meta-phasic radiation is going to extend the lifetime of anyone on an exploding starship.

The movie is unfortunate to say the least. As I've said before the ideas' were all over the place. Very incoherent.

Star Trek: Insurrection - Saving yuppies from Eminent Domain.

 

[Saito S]

Though why the Federation thinks that people living longer would somehow make them better able to defeat the likes of the Dominion is anybodys guess? I don't think the Meta-phasic radiation is going to extend the lifetime of anyone on an exploding starship.

While I agree the movie had more than it's fair share of problems, I just wanted to clarify this one point: they didn't think that, as I recall. The only reference to the Feds' battle against the Dominion that I can remember was part of Ru'afo's big "You guys suck!" speech, which was designed to wind Admiral Dougherty up. I don't remember the exact wording, but Ru'afo runs down a list of baddies that have challenged the Feds recently, including the Borg and the Dominion, and tells the Admiral to "look in the mirror", cause the Federation is old. He equates this "oldness" with the Feds taking so many losses in wars. To be fair, the Admiral does seem affected by what is said, but then he was kind of a dumbass anyway. I don't think there's anything to suggest that anyone else - let alone the Federation as a whole - sees any connection between the positive effects of the radiation treatments and being able to beat the Dominion more easily.

 

[BillJ]

Though why the Federation thinks that people living longer would somehow make them better able to defeat the likes of the Dominion is anybodys guess? I don't think the Meta-phasic radiation is going to extend the lifetime of anyone on an exploding starship.

While I agree the movie had more than it's fair share of problems, I just wanted to clarify this one point: they didn't think that, as I recall. The only reference to the Feds' battle against the Dominion that I can remember was part of Ru'afo's big "You guys suck!" speech, which was designed to wind Admiral Dougherty up. I don't remember the exact wording, but Ru'afo runs down a list of baddies that have challenged the Feds recently, including the Borg and the Dominion, and tells the Admiral to "look in the mirror", cause the Federation is old. He equates this "oldness" with the Feds taking so many losses in wars. To be fair, the Admiral does seem affected by what is said, but then he was kind of a dumbass anyway. I don't think there's anything to suggest that anyone else - let alone the Federation as a whole - sees any connection between the positive effects of the radiation treatments and being able to beat the Dominion more easily.

There is the line from Dougherty to Picard when discussing the importance of the mission... "And warp drive turned a bunch of Romulan thugs into an empire". I may have the wording off a bit.

 

[RyuRoots]

Though why the Federation thinks that people living longer would somehow make them better able to defeat the likes of the Dominion is anybodys guess? I don't think the Meta-phasic radiation is going to extend the lifetime of anyone on an exploding starship.

While I agree the movie had more than it's fair share of problems, I just wanted to clarify this one point: they didn't think that, as I recall. The only reference to the Feds' battle against the Dominion that I can remember was part of Ru'afo's big "You guys suck!" speech, which was designed to wind Admiral Dougherty up. I don't remember the exact wording, but Ru'afo runs down a list of baddies that have challenged the Feds recently, including the Borg and the Dominion, and tells the Admiral to "look in the mirror", cause the Federation is old. He equates this "oldness" with the Feds taking so many losses in wars. To be fair, the Admiral does seem affected by what is said, but then he was kind of a dumbass anyway. I don't think there's anything to suggest that anyone else - let alone the Federation as a whole - sees any connection between the positive effects of the radiation treatments and being able to beat the Dominion more easily.

There is the line from Dougherty to Picard when discussing the importance of the mission... "And warp drive turned a bunch of Romulan thugs into an empire". I may have the wording off a bit.

I believe the intent here was simply to denote the importance. How large of a scale the radiation could help people. Although it has been some time since I watched it, so my memory on exact quotes is blurry.

 

[DevilEyes]

[

And what about those squatters on the series "Lost"? Why is no government evicting THEM????

Um, the Others have tried that, you know.

And so did Charles Widmore, with his special brand of eviction that involves killing everyone.

And you might say that Smokey didn't find some of them welcome, either.

Jacob, OTOH, seemed to be OK with at least some of them being there, but his stance on the issue is unclear and controversial, since he rarely makes public appearances.

These are the only Island "authorities" that I am aware of. Every other government is unaware of the Island, and would have no claim on it even if it was aware of it.

 

[T'Girl]

Movie is less native american land grap and more of a case of eminate domain. You (Ba'ku) prove a piece of land with a farm. But the government (federation) is going to build a hydro-electric dam, which will flood (irradiate) the valley (planet) where your farm is. The local sheriff (Picard) shows up with his deputies and a court order, you get loaded up with your stuff -- bye.

Your farm isn't sovereign, even if should you make that claim.

communist--------------------------liberal-----conservative-----------------------------anarchist
authority--------------------------socialist-----libertarian
progreeive---------------------------facist
​

 

[BillJ]

Guess I'll just have to sit down and watch the damn thing...

 

[Gepard]

I don't want to get caught up in the ridiculous, albeit hilarious pseudo-political arguing this thread has become, but to this I'd add that it's not a case of just anyone taking the planet from the Ba'ku. It's the So'na, who have as much right to it as the Ba'ku. Considering further that this benefit would be shared out to the Federation and potentially help billions, then I have no doubt that I'd remove the 600 sanctimonious bores.

If anything, the Son'a have more right to it. The Ba'ku are the original colonists, who arrived on ships, have memories and a culture from living on other worlds, and who made the decision to come to the planet and set up the lifestyle they were living. The Son'a on the other hand were the first generation born there, and for whom that planet and lifestyle was the only home they'd known. At least, before the Ba'ku exiled them, which was pretty dickish considering. So of the two groups, I'd say the Ba'ku could handle relocating one more time--especially since doing so would benefit trillions.

 

[DWF]

I don't want to get caught up in the ridiculous, albeit hilarious pseudo-political arguing this thread has become, but to this I'd add that it's not a case of just anyone taking the planet from the Ba'ku. It's the So'na, who have as much right to it as the Ba'ku. Considering further that this benefit would be shared out to the Federation and potentially help billions, then I have no doubt that I'd remove the 600 sanctimonious bores.

If anything, the Son'a have more right to it. The Ba'ku are the original colonists, who arrived on ships, have memories and a culture from living on other worlds, and who made the decision to come to the planet and set up the lifestyle they were living. The Son'a on the other hand were the first generation born there, and for whom that planet and lifestyle was the only home they'd known. At least, before the Ba'ku exiled them, which was pretty dickish considering. So of the two groups, I'd say the Ba'ku could handle relocating one more time--especially since doing so would benefit trillions.

The Son'a were only interested in benefiting themselves not the Federation.

 

[JarodRussell]

It's all about the Prime Directive. Just because the Ba'ku know about Warp drive doesn't mean the Federation can just force them away from their homes. Had they been less developed, no way the Federation could have done that.

AND that extraction procedure was about to render the entire planet life-less. Not only humans, every singe living being on the surface would have been killed. They didn't make a big deal out of that in the movie, but that's should actually be part of the issue.


But the whole thing is based on a plot hole. A friggin' planet is big enough for both the Son'a AND the Ba'ku. Why didn't they just create a new settlement somewhere else? Those 300 Ba'ku on the other side of the planet wouldn't have noticed.

 

[Gepard]

The Son'a were only interested in benefiting themselves not the Federation.

Which has exactly what to do with native born vs. colonist?

 

[Saquist]

Generations was a dud.
First Contact was certainly exciting enough, but what did it really have to say? That a major World War is coming? That Zephram was an idiot drunk, as WELL as a genius?
And Nemesis...well, nuff said...

Insurrection had a good story with believable character motivations, good FX, and a meaningful & subtle semi-love interest for Picard.
I've heard much negativity about it, but rarely much beyond "Meh, it's like a long episode!"
LOL, like that's a bad thing???

I challenge anyone to say anything substantive concerning their dislike of this movie.
Beyong the admittedly goofy "gortch" gag. And that was a small thing, really.

I believe so as well.
Generations was a big budget tv movie. I didn't hate it or love it.

First Contact was crap:
The TNG characters just aren't big enough for the big screen so the force Picard to have ANOTHER melt down, for no reason) and introduced zombie borg and a "Darth Time Filler Borg Queen. It really was a bad movie.

Insurrection I actually laughed at but it was a big budget TV movie too. Nothing special.

And Nemesis was just awful except for the battle scenes...which honestly could have been alot more exciting.

 

[lennier1]

But the whole thing is based on a plot hole. A friggin' planet is big enough for both the Son'a AND the Ba'ku. Why didn't they just create a new settlement somewhere else? Those 300 Ba'ku on the other side of the planet wouldn't have noticed.

It's one of the reasons why the Son'a pursued such an aggressive course. As Rua'fo mentioned, a lot of them didn't have the time to wait for natural regeneration since they'd bite the dust long before that.