Insurrection was the best NG movie.

[trevanian]

A lot of what messes up INS is the changes that kept being made to lighten it up. But I'm thinking there are even more aspects that confuse the baku/sona thing. Just found the following on John Eaves' blog:

the first pass for the Baku village from ST Insurrection, In the script The village was a grand set of ruins set in the side of a mountain high above a rain forest. This was a fun drawing and the set scaled down considerably by the time the construction department started up.

Grand set of ruins ... the drawing reminds me slightly of the Burton APES city, and also of some old RidleyGram, but it doesn't jive with what we see and know of the baku at all, which makes me think the baku had a much different history at that point in script development. Grand set of ruins when they haven't even been there that long? And what rain forest locale would they have shot a medium budget trek movie in, since they couldn't afford to go to Hawaii or AZ for SFS?



More evidence that somebody should unearth and publish Piller's cancelled writing of/making of INS.

 

[BillJ]

More evidence that somebody should unearth and publish Piller's cancelled writing of/making of INS.

I would love to see that book!

 

[BillJ]

Tell ya what. YOU move to a new house, pay a certain (admittedly low) price for it, then find out it's SO much nicer than you ever imagined, you donate it to the state as a seniour citizen's home & then rent a flat in Trenton.

Tell ya what.YOU move to a new house, pay a certain (admittedly low) price for it, then find out it's SO much nicer than you ever imagined, you even have a super nice spare room. Then one day you come home and someone is living in it! And they're not going to leave cause no one was using it when they moved in!

 

[lennier1]

It´s not Shakespeare but still certainly better than its overrated predecessor "French Rambo Versus The Space Zombies".
Out of all the TNG movies it´s the only one that actually manages to bring back the feeling of the TV series. Strangely that´s one of the major points people try to use against it.

 

[Chrisisall]

[
Bottom line: the movie is a train wreck. It had some nice bits and some nice ideas but the politics of it were all over the place.

Nope. Bottom line: the movie made you uncomfortable, and such flicks are appreciated by me, like A Clockwork Orange, Apocalypse Now, or The Warriors. The darker sides of our society & psyche need to be looked at, embraced & changed if we are to evolve.

The way it is presented is that the Ba'ku are essentially enjoying the spoils of something that wasn't theirs to begin with.

Like the peeps on Tahiti? Hmmm, interesting.

Being an advanced species surely they understood that if this planet fell within the boundaries of an interstellar empire

Ah HA! "Empire" is the operative word here. Is Starfleet or the Federation an EMPIRE?
Call Darth Vader for a comment on that, if you would.

 

[BillJ]

Out of all the TNG movies it´s the only one that actually manages to bring back the feeling of the TV series. Strangely that´s one of the major points people try to use against it.

Which I think is a bad thing. I've already seen 178 episodes with these people at the TV level (roughly two million an episode/45 minutes). When they spend 65-70 million dollars on a two hour film, I want to see things they couldn't do on the small screen. I want a huge sci-fi movie.

One of the worst things in my mind was that they didn't let cast members move on. A two hour film just doesn't have time to explore seven main characters.

- Should've left Worf on DS9 after Generations.
- Should've moved Riker and Troi onto Voyager.

Essentially you needed a Big Three to move onto the big screen. Which would've been Picard, Data and probably a new female character to inject some youth and attitude into the films.

- Then you eliminate Crusher and LaForge (or seriously scale back their screen time).

Then you whip out a big, bad trilogy with the Borg and Q. And you don't make Earth the focus!

 

[BillJ]

[
Bottom line: the movie is a train wreck. It had some nice bits and some nice ideas but the politics of it were all over the place.

Nope. Bottom line: the movie made you uncomfortable, and such flicks are appreciated by me, like A Clockwork Orange, Apocalypse Now, or The Warriors. The darker sides of our society & psyche need to be looked at, embraced & changed if we are to evolve.

The way it is presented is that the Ba'ku are essentially enjoying the spoils of something that wasn't theirs to begin with.

Like the peeps on Tahiti? Hmmm, interesting.

Being an advanced species surely they understood that if this planet fell within the boundaries of an interstellar empire

Ah HA! "Empire" is the operative word here. Is Starfleet or the Federation an EMPIRE?
Call Darth Vader for a comment on that, if you would.

I can't believe you compared Insurrection to any of the three films in your post above. Might be time to take your medication.

Yes the Federation is an Empire of sorts, just like the United States is. Once again... dictionary.

Once again... it had some elements that if used correctly would've made for a good movie. Unfortunately it's all about execution.

 

[Chrisisall]

I can't believe you compared Insurrection to any of the three films in your post above. Might be time to take your medication.

I can't believe you missed my actual point.
I'd employ the word "Douchebag" here, if I didn't think the Mods might take exception.

 

[BillJ]

I can't believe you compared Insurrection to any of the three films in your post above. Might be time to take your medication.

I can't believe you missed my actual point.
I'd employ the word "Douschebag" here, if I didn't think the Mods might take exception.

Please enlighten me?

And you mis-spelled douche...

 

[BillJ]

me[/I], like A Clockwork Orange, Apocalypse Now, or The Warriors. The darker sides of our society & psyche need to be looked at, embraced & changed if we are to evolve.

The movie didn't make me uncomfortable... it made me sleepy. Exploration of our darker sides came naturally for the films you listed... because that's what they were built for. Insurrection tried to have it both ways and was a muddled mess because of it.

Tough to take a movie seriously when they're doing pimple and boob jokes.

So what were they shooting for Apocalypse Now or School of Hard Knockers?

 

[Chrisisall]

Please enlighten me?

If I contrast a stone and a boulder, would that help?
No?
I thought not.

And you mis-spelled douche...

Only momentairly... I'm workin' without spellcheck or an available dictionary here, Mr. Bag!

 

[Chrisisall]

Tough to take a movie seriously when they're doing pimple and boob jokes.

It's late. I give up.





But I'll have my comeupance!
You plick!
AH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!

 

[BillJ]

Please enlighten me?

If I contrast a stone and a boulder, would that help?
No?
I thought not.

And you mis-spelled douche...

Only momentairly... I'm workin' without spellcheck or an available dictionary here, Mr. Bag!

Just answer this question: What kind of movie were they trying to make when producing Insurrection? What was the end product meant to be?

And I'm also working without spell-checker...

 

[RyuRoots]

Just out of curiosity, was that uncomfortable comment directed at BillJ, or everyone who disliked it? Because I can say with absolute certainty that it didn't make me uncomfortable; it made me read the back of the DVD box because that was more entertaining than the actual movie. I also think the house analogy falls flat on its face because the Baku didn't pay ANYTHING. They just found the planet and thought "Oh hey, this is cool." and then later "Oh hey, I guess we're immortal now, sweet." And a whole planet for these people? For some perspective, the entire Baku population here was ONE VILLAGE. And they weren't indigenous, either, and we don't get the impression they had to do the sort of soul-searching that the Indians from Journey's End did, even.

 

[Hober Mallow]

Now that I think about it (and this is to your credit, mate), I don't think a movie would have to subscribe to a viewer's personal politics in order for it to be judged as a good film (and my original post in this thread didn't mention politics at all).

Well, look at fairy tales. They are some of the greatest movies ever made, they sort of come at us with the message that it was a magical idealized time, where love was more pure and men lived by a code of chivalry, and everyone lived happily ever after. In none of those stories does democracy exist. Instead, there's a good king who takes care of all his people. And it's presented as an ideal world.

SF author Charles Coleman Finlay picked up on this, and created a story series about trolls. In his fantasy/fair tale world, humans live under monarchies, trolls have democracy.

So are the people who don't appreciate Insurrection's ethical stance conservatives, or communists? Take your pick! They can't be both!

If Obama can be a socialist and fascist, why couldn't they be both?

 

[Hober Mallow]

I disagree that getting the feeling of the TV series is a bad thing. For me that was one of the movie's only saving graces. I don't want to see Picard as an action hero. The whole reason I went to see the TNG films was to see the same TNG crew I knew from the television series. That doesn't mean the scope of the film has to be small, it just means the characters should be true to what we always knew and that the movie is true to the spirit of the TV series. I felt that was the case with INS, whereas it wasn't the case with FC.

I still don't think much of the movie, though. Sorry, Chrisisall.

 

[Chrisisall]

Just answer this question: What kind of movie were they trying to make when producing Insurrection? What was the end product meant to be?

This is conjecture on my part, but, I think they were going for a smaller, less intense story after FC. Just a good little SF movie.

also think the house analogy falls flat on its face because the Baku didn't pay ANYTHING. They just found the planet and thought "Oh hey, this is cool." and then later "Oh hey, I guess we're immortal now, sweet." And a whole planet for these people? For some perspective, the entire Baku population here was ONE VILLAGE.

Okay, to re-cap:
From a Capitalist POV, they didn't buy it, so they don't deserve it.
From a Communist POV, they can't really own anything anyway.
From a Liberal POV, they CAN'T hoard the radiation all for themselves.
From a Conservative POV, Eminent Domain says they're screwed.

I just find it interesting that no one complains about Khan & Co getting THEIR own planet. And there were a few less of THOSE peeps.
I also find it interesting that if the Ba'ku's planet had no special thang goin' on, that this discussion would not even be taking place. I guess it IS human nature to want to take what that other tribe over there has.

 

[lennier1]

Well, look at fairy tales. They are some of the greatest movies ever made, they sort of come at us with the message that it was a magical idealized time, where love was more pure and men lived by a code of chivalry, and everyone lived happily ever after. In none of those stories does democracy exist. Instead, there's a good king who takes care of all his people. And it's presented as an ideal world.

A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...

 

[Chrisisall]

Well, look at fairy tales. They are some of the greatest movies ever made, they sort of come at us with the message that it was a magical idealized time, where love was more pure and men lived by a code of chivalry, and everyone lived happily ever after. In none of those stories does democracy exist. Instead, there's a good king who takes care of all his people. And it's presented as an ideal world.

A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...

"...it is a dream I have."

 

[RyuRoots]

I just find it interesting that no one complains about Khan & Co getting THEIR own planet. And there were a few less of THOSE peeps.

Because Khan's planet was meant as a prison, more or less. It wasn't a paradise before Ceti Alpha VI exploded, and it certainly didn't have magical immortality particles that could be harvested for medical technology to help the entire Federation.