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History: The force that gives us meaning?

Thor Damar

Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral
I have recently read several very interesting threads that dealt with issues as diverse as the role of men and women in human societies, the nature of patriotism and the nation state along with the relationship between the body politic and the citizenry. These rather interesting topics of discussion have confirmed my deeply held belief that the study and understanding of history is one of the most important aspects of our development as human beings.

What I’m hoping to achieve with this thread is to simulate a discussion on the many varied aspects of the Historical processes. For example how were (or are) you taught about history and how was that historiography undertaken? After all no history is ever truly objective and it has always been defined by political and social pressures such as the study of the Russian Revolution in 1950’s America during the McCarthy Red Scares or the teaching of the Second World War in the late USSR.

The main propose of History is to educate future generations in both the mistakes and the successes of the preceding waves of humanity and to inform us of the forces behind societal change. Of course there are many different schools of thought and interpretation that have quite often resulted in multi faceted and oft contradictory studies of our common past.

I therefore would like to ask that you share your common or not so common experiences within the fields of History and its attendant controversies not to mention the rarer agreements.

Let the intellectual debate commence!
 
History is more or less bunk. It's tradition. We don't want tradition. We want to live in the present and the only history that is worth a tinker's damn is the history we made today.
 
History is more or less bunk. It's tradition. We don't want tradition. We want to live in the present and the only history that is worth a tinker's damn is the history we made today.

I second this opinion. Or rather, believe that history is a subject the importance of which is systematically overestimated.
 
For the record I think he was dead wrong. But then I have a joint English/History hons degree. I would say something like that.
 
History is more or less bunk. It's tradition. We don't want tradition. We want to live in the present and the only history that is worth a tinker's damn is the history we made today.

wait! we made history today?

made it what? jump through a hoop or something?

{are you female?--do you have boobies } oops wrong thread

but yes no one like the traditional all important I am but then who am I really right now?

and by being right now am I really ignoring tradition., and whose pray tell would that be>?
 
History is more or less bunk. It's tradition. We don't want tradition. We want to live in the present and the only history that is worth a tinker's damn is the history we made today.

I wondered when somebody was going to quote him. Though I had figured it would be someone on this side of the Atlantic. :lol:
 
Without wanting to appear too cynical, it seems to me that the main purpose of history is to provide a lot of people with jobs. Taking my cynical hat off - it's not history of a particular time and place that is fascinating it's the stories of the people who inhabited that time and place.
 
If I didn't believe in the importance of history I wouldn't be going into the field that I am today. I am working on becoming an archivist so that I can be part of maintaining the historical record.

I don't think that history is the same thing as tradition, not even close. Some people may study history for that purpose, but for me, and in my classes, the idea of tradition wasn't something that even entered the conversation. I study history because I savor that connection with the past...it reinforces that human bond. I try to imagine myself in situations from the past, put myself in that person's shoes, and it reminds me of just how much the same we all are. That gives me hope and happiness.

Unfortunately that's about as intellectual I go. I've always been less about the philosophical side of things and more about the hands-on, which is why I chose a Public History program for my Master's degree. Public History, just like it sounds, being the study of connecting the public to history (through museums, archives, cultural resource management firms, historical consulting, etc.). With the regular History Master's program, it is more intellectual, more historiography classes, which I find interesting once in a while but I couldn't handle doing that every semester. Learning about other historian's opinion of history doesn't excite me as much as dealing with actual history itself. Which is why I love hanging out in the archives, where my current internship is. I definitely didn't want to become a professor, which is what pretty much everyone in the standard program plans on doing.

Go history!
 
Those who don't understand History are doomed to repeat it. Those who misunderstand History doom us all. :cool:

The importance of History cannot be overestimated. One cannot understand Humanity by watching it today any more than one can understand a person by what they are doing this minute.

Besides, it's endlessly fascinating. I've been interested in History for as long as I can remember (which is a big chunk of History right there :D). All those people, exotic and mundane, and all the wondrous and trivial things that they did excited my imagination. I'd look at pictures of ancient ruins and realize that it was somebody's house, they lived and slept there, they had a favorite snack and they told jokes, they cried when their friends died, and they did it all hundreds or thousands of years before I was born. I'd walk the streets of my neighborhood or go into Boston and realize that this is where it happened, Minutemen and Redcoats, fighting and dying on these streets, long before I was born. It's the Human Adventure. It still never ceases to amaze me.
 
^Very well put!

Oh yes, and I forgot to mention earlier that my sig is probably a clear indication of my feelings on this matter.
 
What RJD said + 1.

When you start working out why things are the way they are, it becomes a fascinating study on the meandering path of Civilisation. It's like looking at a map of a city that's been in existence for hundreds of years. You can see the old path of the river, where the city walls once were, where a fire burnt down a suburb that was then rebuilt.

Or, on a more personal level, you're shaped by the things that have happened to you as you've grown up - parents, siblings, relatives, friends, schools, work, accidents, music, arts, politics. All of these have had a hand in shaping who you are right now. Even things you've forgotten. Your personal history has made you who you are. And informs our decisions every single hour, every single day. We can't break free of it, it's part of our identity.

Now apply that to a team/town/city/state/nation/world... and suddenly it becomes really interesting.
 
Those who don't understand History are doomed to repeat it.
True
Those who misunderstand History doom us all. :cool:

Which is why we call them politicians...

The importance of History cannot be overestimated. One cannot understand Humanity by watching it today any more than one can understand a person by what they are doing this minute.

Besides, it's endlessly fascinating. I've been interested in History for as long as I can remember (which is a big chunk of History right there :D). All those people, exotic and mundane, and all the wondrous and trivial things that they did excited my imagination. I'd look at pictures of ancient ruins and realize that it was somebody's house, they lived and slept there, they had a favorite snack and they told jokes, they cried when their friends died, and they did it all hundreds or thousands of years before I was born. I'd walk the streets of my neighborhood or go into Boston and realize that this is where it happened, Minutemen and Redcoats, fighting and dying on these streets, long before I was born. It's the Human Adventure. It still never ceases to amaze me.

QFT

I've been meaning to ask you what it was like to ride on the Mauretania...:p
 
I first became interested in history when they introduced us to mythology in primary school. I had to do a report on the Greek god Apollo, and I got taken in hook, line, and sinker, started devouring everything I could get my hands on that referenced Hellenistic civilization, which rapidly spread to an interest in ancient Rome, too. That's something that would remain a love and interest of mine to present day.

One of my uncles got me interested in WWII because he and his older brother were in it. The older brother died when I was just 2, so I never got a chance to get his take on things, but his best friend gave me a lot of old photos from when they served together and some items they collected along the way. My uncle wasn't big on telling war stories, per say. In fact, I can't recall a single time he actually talked about the fighting. I know he was at Normandy, and my other uncle was shot down behind enemy lines and barely made it out. He talked about funny things, little slice of life things, places they were and people they met. It made me want to put it all into a larger context and got me doing some reading of my own.

In high school, I had the honor of meeting a man who was a POW in a German labor camp and another who survived the Bhutan Death March. Both of them were tremendously generous in sharing their experiences. I had read about conditions in the camps and about the march. Hearing it from people who were actually there was powerful beyond words. I will never forget that.

When I was in my 20's, I met a man who had been in the Luftwaffe and who moved to the US pretty much directly after the war. He had been a POW of some Americans and had fixed their radio for them. One of them in particular took a shine to him and helped arrange for him to move to the states. He was actually a lot like my uncle in that he didn't ever talk about the fighting, but he had a lot to say about the era and his life leading up to the war. It was fascinating getting to hear the other side of a dialogue that started with my uncle. He would put on his old swing records and talk for hours.

It was also sobering. He retained all of the uglier prejudices associated with the Nazi Party. Sometimes it was hard to reconcile this incredibly generous and kind man who had become my friend with this incredibly bigoted, ugly mentality that he could start spouting at any moment. I felt like I learned a bigger lesson about people on the whole in speaking with him than I ever could from books. He gave me some items, too, and I keep what he gave me and what my uncle's friend gave me together.

I now live in a city steeped in pre-Revolutionary war history, so many of the buildings that had significance are still right here. There are also a few sites around here that came from Ice Age settlements. I like visiting the places first hand because it gives a very visceral sense of being connected to the past. My interest in the US Colonial era grew by leaps and bounds once I moved here. My biggest regret when it comes to that is we don't have people living from that era to talk to today.

I always make it a point to talk to older people, particularly older natives of the regions where I travel or live. You can learn some truly amazing things you'll never find in the history books. I'm also very interested in folklore, most of which stems from an oral tradition. I think that our so-called more civilized societies are missing out by letting oral tradition and folklore slip by the wayside. Once these people die, everything they knew and carried with them is gone if they have no one to tell it to. I think history is best when it lives and breathes, when you can hear it and touch it. I prefer to absorb it that way and reserve reading for the times no longer accessible through the living or their informed descendants.
 
Those who don't understand History are doomed to repeat it. Those who misunderstand History doom us all.

You know, it should be pretty doable to put that to the test. Find and rank politicians with proven histories of effective and ineffective decision making, and then quiz them about history.

But why do that when you can just repeat it as a maxim?
 
Sorry to take so long to reply, TD, but here’s my piece. I’m not a historian and I didn’t study history, so if that shows, sorry, and please point out my ignorance :lol:. But here goes!:

I am somewhat sceptical of how history as a discipline works for us, but that’s not the fault of the discipline itself, instead it is shortcomings among people that shouldn’t be taken as reflecting on the actual desire to study the past. I think the study of history is quite necessary and wonderfully rewarding, but the way it is approached troubles me. I think many historians tend to undercut their own mission as a consequence of their difficult position in deciphering the past for an entire society.

History, in my view (and I acknowledge I don’t study it myself) is the construction of a concept of societal self-identity but distanced from the present self, a resource accessible to all as a picture of human experience and actions to date, the events and the threads of culture, religion and philosophy that ran through them and connected them. We are informed by exploring this resource and evaluating it in terms of what it can teach us about our present and future. Simple knowledge of “this happened then to this person” is not enough. History is a concept where facts must be augmented by analyzing what they mean for us and who we are. The mission of “History”, I’d suggest, is in creating a sense of the collected sum of human experience and action that we can all examine and contemplate to find meaning from. We look at the sum of who we are and were, draw patterns, identify unifying concepts that we feel must be enhanced, re-examined, challenged, or linked in new and intriguing ways.

Here lies the problem. Ultimately, many historians undermine themselves, the study of history undermines itself, because the historians frequently aren’t interested in truly constructing the big picture. Why not? Because society cannot handle it. On an individual scale, we can study the past to help understand ourselves better and give us pointers for the future. This is immensely rewarding. It should be the same on the larger scale the historian works on, but often it’s not. Society does not like individuals coming to their own conclusions or understandings. Always society as a collective entity wants to remain cohesive by promoting certain ideologies it does not like questioned, imposing on the individual. In serving the collective rather than the individual, the historian cannot escape the need to further that cohesiveness, to close off inquiry lest the foundations of the society be damaged by what is exposed and freely analyzed. The historians’ job is therefore to decode the past to justify and explain the present. Anything too threatening to that present, too earth-shattering that threatens to destabilize the self-identity society holds at that time (as most necessary radical change does) is therefore seen as antithetical to the “mission” (and I’m not saying this is a conscious act), and is dismissed or ignored. Most historians are evaluating humanity’s sum of experience and constructing the concept of history using their own ideologies and biases, those most common to the age they inhabit.

This is not to say they aren’t trying to be objective. We all know that the view that “history is just interpretation” is nonsensical. Facts are facts. But facts are meaningless in isolation. They must be given meaning by the relevance they hold to humans, the effect they have on us, how knowledge of these facts is evaluated and incorporated into our beings. It is this that historians must either struggle to control (by publishing and promoting their opinions and theories, the basis of the intellectual debates and disagreements of the profession) or ignore in the interests of their objectivity. Saying "in 1256 Bob the Black defeated King Whatisname at the Battle of Blueberry Hill" is fine. If the evidence is convincing enough, no-one will argue. Saying "Bob the Black ambushed Whatsiname in violation of the era's codes of honour" is also fact, again, providing you can give the evidence both for the ambush and for the prevalent social ideologies. But for events of the past to have meaning to us, to construct the concept of “history” as something engaging and relevant to the people, we must evaluate it in terms that move it out of the simply “factual” and into something more fluid, albeit still grounded in what can be demonstrated through evidence. As we all know, history is constructed more frequently like this:

“Bob the Black’s actions at the Battle of Blueberry Hill had great consequences for popular perception of chivalric or related codes of conduct in Thingyland, and the resulting wave of (some feeling or new philosophical understanding) helped contribute strongly to a prevalent cultural trend the following century of (whatever), which in turn, evidence from (whatever) suggests, led to the formation of the Whatsitcalled Society by disaffected (some social group), which itself formed the foundation of the (organization, etc.) today. Or not, if you believe (this theorist)”.

Deciphering these threads and links, and debating the significance to the wider picture of each battle, marriage, publication, proclamation, etc. is a worthy endeavour and it is here historians do great service to our people. They help us understand where we come from, what led us to our current status. Here, however, is where it goes wrong too often in my view. Our current status consists of certain biases and ideological shortcomings (same as in any age), and all too often the historian (who is only human) notes only certain threads, only certain paths of development and growth through the mass of humanity’s prior “life”, and ignores completely other aspects, other “stories” in making us who we are that his or her society does not, in their own time, wish to contemplate. History is a wonderful discipline that sadly seems to me to often stumble at the last hurdle, undone not by anything wrong with the discipline itself but by the shortcomings of people- by their inability to escape the biases of the time and place in which it is written. The omission of entire “threads” of human development and experience from popular consideration, simply because society does not wish to confront them, is all too common, as becomes clear to those who make a point of questioning or condemning the status quo in unconventional ways. Historians are serving the wider society, but societies and those in them are very, very good at ignoring or forgetting what they don’t want to confront. They hide defining aspects of their identity in one hand, gripping tightly while the other hand tries to force it open. Meanwhile, the head is refusing to look at either hand and the mouth is saying “thing in my hand? What thing in my hand?”. Ultimately, in my judgement, the potential in, and great importance of, constructing the concept of “history” is all too often undone by the historians being conscious of the pressures of their position decoding the past for everyone. They therefore are left sifting through the sum of human activity and experience in a manner too consistent with the current ideological prejudices and above all, fears.

This can be quite irritating to those of us who see how historians breeze over certain aspects of human thinking and behaviour (and means of constructing society and its outlooks) that are important to our individual understanding of self. What makes it worse is that some of these aspects are age-old and near universal. That’s the problem, though- because of this, people don’t “see” them. They accept them without question. Lines of thought that question or challenge some of these assumptions offend the current ideological standards, however. Therefore, history, rather than crafting for our enhancement an overview of shared humanity from which we can identify patterns and confront our traditional ways, instead serves to hide the bigger, collective picture, turning us away from a self-confrontation as a planetary civilization by breaking humanity down into pieces placed in conflict. History should serve to build, to construct for us a vast, complex and diverse picture of who we are, so we can paw at it and consider it and pick at bits we think need changing or re-evaluating. But history is not doing this, not really. I think it is hiding, afraid to allow humanity access to such a resource, afraid to present them with the big picture lest they notice and meddle with the bits those conforming to the status quo don't want noticed, or meddled with. Historians are not yet fully committed to their mission, or are not being allowed to become fully committed, because society in general is still cautious about allowing us to take a good long, full look at ourselves.

History should be a means by which the whole sum of human experience is acknowledged, in both its diversity and its unity, so it- and humanity- can be challenged. But all too often history does not challenge, it justifies. Rather than showing us what we can identify about ourselves, examine and perhaps overcome, history justifies the present by constructing our concept of today as either a pinnacle or as a dangerous cliff-top where we risk teetering into repeating “the mistakes of the past”. The present is evaluated in terms of the past, while, as described, the past is evaluated in terms of the present. So we go around in circles. We should be allowing the past to inform the present, but that means thinking outside our preconceptions so we can see what the past is truly offering us.

All too often, the person on the street’s view of history disguises our responsibility in the now by placing responsibility on our ancestors, applauding their implementing change while they refuse to change their own outlook. As the saying goes: every society honours its dead troublemakers and its living conformists. The human story continues around us right now. “History” is being made. Today, like never before, we are deciphering and constructing the story of humanity into something accessible to all, on many levels. But, as I’ve described, it is the present conformists who write it. Will future generations celebrate those of us who are “troublemakers” and called for change? Or, because the study of history has been so promoted (and with good reason, lest we forget), will they instead celebrate their dead conformists who wrote it above the troublemakers and progressives and oddballs who feature in it? I can’t help but fear that as we indoctrinate our children into an appreciation of history (quite rightly), and teach them the same history we were taught, we run the risk of creating a society where the conformist is always promoted, and the troublemaker, the progressive, he or she who calls for change, is never acknowledged. I myself have seen, even in my few years, how history is being rewritten and twisted by those who buy into prominent ideologies so that the past conforms with their ideology relating to the present. I have seen myself how conformity to present ideology is becoming more important in our evaluation of past figures than their own “stories”, and how these figures are promoted, twisted or ignored based on whether they can be used to support those current ideologies. To be fair, this is usually those dealing with history from “outside”, not historians themselves. But historians only serve the wider society, and if the trend becomes too dominant, who knows what will happen? Our present is assimilating our past, and our future is slipping away. That’s what I fear, because I see it progressing that way at some speed. I personally believe history is a great and necessary discipline, but if handled incorrectly- and in my experience most things are, but that’s people for you- it undermines itself. Rather than showing us the big picture to allow a true self-understanding for humanity, history shows us what we want to see, because we make it show us what we want to see.

Anyway, that’s my piece. :)
 
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If I didn't believe in the importance of history I wouldn't be going into the field that I am today. I am working on becoming an archivist so that I can be part of maintaining the historical record.

I don't think that history is the same thing as tradition, not even close. Some people may study history for that purpose, but for me, and in my classes, the idea of tradition wasn't something that even entered the conversation.

I wouldn't equate tradition with history either, as it would imply that the goal was to continue the way of life or the events that one is trying to understand.

Saying our cultural history is unimportant is akin to saying the events that have happened in our own lives are unimportant. These events make us who we are, and if we fail to understand them properly and in context we can't possibly hope to avoid making the same stupid mistakes over and over again.

I think some people equate the importance of historical study to how useful their secondary school History education was to them. History influences everything from our educational system to our military policies and foreign aid.
 
History is more or less bunk. It's tradition. We don't want tradition. We want to live in the present and the only history that is worth a tinker's damn is the history we made today.
Ford's contribution to industry aside, I find this this attitude to be grossly ignorant at best and dangerous at worst.

Admittedly history academia largely exists to perpetuate itself but the significance of that knowledge cannot be underestimated. It amazes me that anyone would suggest that what happened yesterday is of no relevance to the present. You don't get to invent the assembly line or cure cancer without the fundamental discoveries of the past or the wars that now allow you to work in peace. The mistakes of the past are immeasurably valuable as well, be it the rise of the Third Reich or O-ring temperature tolerances.

As for the personal side of this thread, History is a casual interest of mine and I will graduate soon with a minor in history (one class left). I'm not sure how to trace my attitude towards its importance, it seems like common sense to me. Through high school and college I've had some good teachers that have fostered my interest in the past and my desire to learn more.
 
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