Yup. You can tell he's stung when Sisko mentions Wolf 359.
Nerys Ghemor's DS9 Episode Review Thread
- Thread starter Nerys Ghemor
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I felt for both of them in that scene. Picard's experience as a Borg was clearly mentally scarring, and even though he had no control of what he did when assimilated, he's the type of person who takes personal responsibility very seriously. He had to feel guilt, even if it wasn't rational.
Sisko probably knew on some level he was being irrational, too, but at least in that moment couldn't control himself. It was a well played scene.
I highly recommend Diane Carey's novelization of this episode--especially with regards to this scene. Sisko's conflict of "dont blame this man...don't blame this man..." is well depicted, I must say.
Thanks for the recommendation. I intend one day to pick up all of the DS9 novels and give them a read. It's just going to take a while!
Yeah, that one's really good.
I would also recommend Betrayal, Fallen Heroes, A Stitch in Time, The 34th Rule, the Millennium Trilogy, and the Terok Nor series while you're at it!
OK, just re-watched "Past Prologue."
Again, one more warning for those who are new to this thread...this is a re-watch and therefore spoilers to future seasons abound. If you don't want to see them, please check out one of the excellent first-time-watcher review threads also located in the DS9 Forum.
OK, here goes.
The first thing I found myself wondering, just as I've seen other people speculate on in DS9-related threads, is how this episode would have been tackled...indeed, how it would have been written today. I know, certainly, that my perspectives have shifted. The person that I was when I first watched DS9, and who I've become now...definitely very, very different. And I realized there's only one reason that these plots still work, to my mind.
And that is the conduct of the Cardassians during the Occupation--which was, of course, WAY beyond the pale. Given that the Bajoran Resistance was fighting an enemy that was CLEARLY committing atrocities, we are able as viewers to sympathize. And yet even back then, before the way society changed, it was clear that there are lines you just don't cross, whatever the provocation, and that Tahna Los had gone WAY over that line.
But, I must admit there was part of me that, when Gul Donar began his "I Told You So," felt like Sisko and the Feddies deserved it. If it hadn't been for Kira having an attack of conscience, the naive Starfleeters would almost certainly have been played and Kira would likely have died a traitor, never having a chance to repent for her mistake. (Or at least Odo would've had a MUCH harder time gathering the necessary evidence to stop things from getting out of hand, before time ran out.)
I do think this episode could've taken an interesting, even darker turn, if Sisko had been forced to make good on his promise to the Cardassians...a promise that I think helped set DS9 further away from its TNG origins. I simply cannot imagine Picard playing that kind of hardball, and the fact that Sisko did--wow. (On the other hand, such a scenario would've been right at home on RDM's later work, Battlestar Galactica...and I must note how interesting it is as a nuBsG fan to watch DS9 and see some of the "roots" of certain things that were explored in greater depth on nuBsG.) But considering this is Trek we're talking about, and Sisko hasn't actually had his major dalliances with the devil yet, even the very threat must have been shocking to Trek fans of the time.
And then there's plain (HA!) simple (HA!) Garak. He had a VERY interesting introduction indeed...though one would think a tailor wouldn't be caught dead wearing what he was wearing. (UNLESS...unless...he was taking a rather subtle poke at some of the hideous things Federation civilians wear?
That's the ONLY way I can understand that green abomination.) One thing to me that was immediately obvious--though I tried to tell myself that I was imagining it...is that Garak was definitely hitting on Bashir. Whether or not Bashir was interested--there's a lot more ambiguity there. Not to mention that with how unbelievably, hilariously oblivious Bashir was to other things in this episode, we may never have even had a chance to know given that he probably would've missed anything short of an outright declaration of "I WANT A DATE."
But let's put aside any possible shipping (which I'm not 100% sure of myself, anyway), and look at something else interesting: Garak's motivations in letting Bashir overhear the deal he cut with Lursa and B'Etor. Why would he do something so beneficial to his people, something likely to result in setting Tahna up for arrest, and let a Starfleet officer overhear? I think there are a LOT of possible motives here. I wonder which one you guys will think is likely? Or is it all or none of the below?
1) A move to curry favor with Starfleet and thus avoid getting kicked off the station--and being able to continue as a spy.
2) A way to LOOK good to whoever he's reporting to--and then burn them in revenge for ditching him on the station, without looking like he's involved in it. ("Oh, the Feddies just happened to figure it out. I have NO idea how THAT happened!" ) From what we now know, this would frak with both the Obsidian Order AND with Central Command at the same time.
3) Maaaaaybe some part of Garak was a little bit tired of all the bloodshed and torture, at least right in that moment? Getting Tahna caught by the Federation certainly ensures different treatment than letting Donar do it. (Though I would say, if this theory is true, it would be a temporary sentiment brought on by the first shock of exile.)
My last point has to do with the Cardassians. It's very strange to me, knowing what we know about them by the end of the series, to see them played as strictly bad guys in this episode--well, except for Garak, of course, who is...who knows what. But when you think about it, it really is remarkable just how far the Cardassians are going to come. At this point in Trek history, we've only had one clear hint of something different with a Cardassian...and that is Glinn Daro in "The Wounded." So given that, the way they're played here makes sense. But isn't it amazing just how far the Cardassians will come from this point?
All the way to a point where at the very end, when Tahna insults Kira as a "traitor," the first rebuttal to pop into my mind was in THE most inappropriate tongue possible--the language I created because of how I was inspired by what the Cardassians eventually become!
Again, one more warning for those who are new to this thread...this is a re-watch and therefore spoilers to future seasons abound. If you don't want to see them, please check out one of the excellent first-time-watcher review threads also located in the DS9 Forum.
OK, here goes.
The first thing I found myself wondering, just as I've seen other people speculate on in DS9-related threads, is how this episode would have been tackled...indeed, how it would have been written today. I know, certainly, that my perspectives have shifted. The person that I was when I first watched DS9, and who I've become now...definitely very, very different. And I realized there's only one reason that these plots still work, to my mind.
And that is the conduct of the Cardassians during the Occupation--which was, of course, WAY beyond the pale. Given that the Bajoran Resistance was fighting an enemy that was CLEARLY committing atrocities, we are able as viewers to sympathize. And yet even back then, before the way society changed, it was clear that there are lines you just don't cross, whatever the provocation, and that Tahna Los had gone WAY over that line.
But, I must admit there was part of me that, when Gul Donar began his "I Told You So," felt like Sisko and the Feddies deserved it. If it hadn't been for Kira having an attack of conscience, the naive Starfleeters would almost certainly have been played and Kira would likely have died a traitor, never having a chance to repent for her mistake. (Or at least Odo would've had a MUCH harder time gathering the necessary evidence to stop things from getting out of hand, before time ran out.)
I do think this episode could've taken an interesting, even darker turn, if Sisko had been forced to make good on his promise to the Cardassians...a promise that I think helped set DS9 further away from its TNG origins. I simply cannot imagine Picard playing that kind of hardball, and the fact that Sisko did--wow. (On the other hand, such a scenario would've been right at home on RDM's later work, Battlestar Galactica...and I must note how interesting it is as a nuBsG fan to watch DS9 and see some of the "roots" of certain things that were explored in greater depth on nuBsG.) But considering this is Trek we're talking about, and Sisko hasn't actually had his major dalliances with the devil yet, even the very threat must have been shocking to Trek fans of the time.
And then there's plain (HA!) simple (HA!) Garak. He had a VERY interesting introduction indeed...though one would think a tailor wouldn't be caught dead wearing what he was wearing. (UNLESS...unless...he was taking a rather subtle poke at some of the hideous things Federation civilians wear?
That's the ONLY way I can understand that green abomination.) One thing to me that was immediately obvious--though I tried to tell myself that I was imagining it...is that Garak was definitely hitting on Bashir. Whether or not Bashir was interested--there's a lot more ambiguity there. Not to mention that with how unbelievably, hilariously oblivious Bashir was to other things in this episode, we may never have even had a chance to know given that he probably would've missed anything short of an outright declaration of "I WANT A DATE." But let's put aside any possible shipping (which I'm not 100% sure of myself, anyway), and look at something else interesting: Garak's motivations in letting Bashir overhear the deal he cut with Lursa and B'Etor. Why would he do something so beneficial to his people, something likely to result in setting Tahna up for arrest, and let a Starfleet officer overhear? I think there are a LOT of possible motives here. I wonder which one you guys will think is likely? Or is it all or none of the below?
1) A move to curry favor with Starfleet and thus avoid getting kicked off the station--and being able to continue as a spy.
2) A way to LOOK good to whoever he's reporting to--and then burn them in revenge for ditching him on the station, without looking like he's involved in it. ("Oh, the Feddies just happened to figure it out. I have NO idea how THAT happened!"
) From what we now know, this would frak with both the Obsidian Order AND with Central Command at the same time.3) Maaaaaybe some part of Garak was a little bit tired of all the bloodshed and torture, at least right in that moment? Getting Tahna caught by the Federation certainly ensures different treatment than letting Donar do it. (Though I would say, if this theory is true, it would be a temporary sentiment brought on by the first shock of exile.)
My last point has to do with the Cardassians. It's very strange to me, knowing what we know about them by the end of the series, to see them played as strictly bad guys in this episode--well, except for Garak, of course, who is...who knows what. But when you think about it, it really is remarkable just how far the Cardassians are going to come. At this point in Trek history, we've only had one clear hint of something different with a Cardassian...and that is Glinn Daro in "The Wounded." So given that, the way they're played here makes sense. But isn't it amazing just how far the Cardassians will come from this point?
All the way to a point where at the very end, when Tahna insults Kira as a "traitor," the first rebuttal to pop into my mind was in THE most inappropriate tongue possible--the language I created because of how I was inspired by what the Cardassians eventually become!
That's a very interesting and well thought out review NG, unfortunately I have not seen this episode in a while so I may not remember everything that you have discussed herein.
Just a question as regards to the rest of the reviews, will you be reviewing the Cardassian episodes first?
Now on to the review itself. You make a very interesting observation with regards to the nature of the Occupation and the resistance to it. First off it's important to note that the Cardassians were a brutal occupying force who mercilessly exploited and tortured the entire Bajoran populace.
(I do think that this is an important point for me to make as a obvious Cardassian fan, I do not seek to whitewash anything the Cardassians did or indeed any crimes committed by humanity in RL. There has to be an objective truth after all.)
The Cardassians faced a large scale resistance movement (I'm using this term in the most factual sense, that is those who are fighting an occupying force) which did in some sense play a key role in driving the Cardassian Empire out of the B'hava'el system. However the Bajoran resistance forces did not fight cleanly either, a point that is acknowledged by former resistance fighters who routinely refer to themselves as terrorists.
What makes this episode so compelling is how it deals with this issue, Tahna Los is not painted as a heroic freedom fighter but a reactionary terrorist still fighting the last war. (at least that's how I saw it)
In fact his actions could have resulted in the Cardassians returning as Starfleet might have withdrawn from Bajor without the wormhole there to provide a strategic rationale for maintaining a presence. Not forgetting the socio-political ramifications on Bajor with the destruction of the Celestial Temple...
I'm going to skip to Mr Garak now (if that is his real name
) I've never agreed with the whole 'Garak is attracted to Dr Bashir' mostly because I despise the whole shipping phenomena and because it does not suit the character. Elim Garak is a man of complication for whom deceit is a way of life and in many cases death (at least for other people) so I don't think that he would leave himself vulnerable to love or indeed lust. In my personal opinion I think that Garak was amusing himself by disconcerting the good doctor with his rather over the top advances, it seems that Bashir provided some welcome intellectual relief to the Cardassian exile which did grow into a friendship of sorts.
As for his motivations during this episode? I think that it was a combination of all three points after all, a Cardassian can hold different thoughts and motivations in his head. Plus he is cut off from his fellow Cardassians and that can be traumatic for a citizen of the Union...
I'm going to end here (mostly cause it takes me so long to write even a few paragraphs) but I just wanted to remind everyone about one of the worst aspects of this otherwise fine episode...the Duras sisters.
Just a question as regards to the rest of the reviews, will you be reviewing the Cardassian episodes first?
Now on to the review itself. You make a very interesting observation with regards to the nature of the Occupation and the resistance to it. First off it's important to note that the Cardassians were a brutal occupying force who mercilessly exploited and tortured the entire Bajoran populace.
(I do think that this is an important point for me to make as a obvious Cardassian fan, I do not seek to whitewash anything the Cardassians did or indeed any crimes committed by humanity in RL. There has to be an objective truth after all.)
The Cardassians faced a large scale resistance movement (I'm using this term in the most factual sense, that is those who are fighting an occupying force) which did in some sense play a key role in driving the Cardassian Empire out of the B'hava'el system. However the Bajoran resistance forces did not fight cleanly either, a point that is acknowledged by former resistance fighters who routinely refer to themselves as terrorists.
What makes this episode so compelling is how it deals with this issue, Tahna Los is not painted as a heroic freedom fighter but a reactionary terrorist still fighting the last war. (at least that's how I saw it)
In fact his actions could have resulted in the Cardassians returning as Starfleet might have withdrawn from Bajor without the wormhole there to provide a strategic rationale for maintaining a presence. Not forgetting the socio-political ramifications on Bajor with the destruction of the Celestial Temple...
I'm going to skip to Mr Garak now (if that is his real name
) I've never agreed with the whole 'Garak is attracted to Dr Bashir' mostly because I despise the whole shipping phenomena and because it does not suit the character. Elim Garak is a man of complication for whom deceit is a way of life and in many cases death (at least for other people) so I don't think that he would leave himself vulnerable to love or indeed lust. In my personal opinion I think that Garak was amusing himself by disconcerting the good doctor with his rather over the top advances, it seems that Bashir provided some welcome intellectual relief to the Cardassian exile which did grow into a friendship of sorts. As for his motivations during this episode? I think that it was a combination of all three points after all, a Cardassian can hold different thoughts and motivations in his head. Plus he is cut off from his fellow Cardassians and that can be traumatic for a citizen of the Union...
I'm going to end here (mostly cause it takes me so long to write even a few paragraphs) but I just wanted to remind everyone about one of the worst aspects of this otherwise fine episode...the Duras sisters.
This isn't much compared to your great review, NG, and your equally great commentary, TD, but I will quickly add that I appreciated greatly how, even at this early point in the series, those involved were willing to portray the Cardassian-Bajoran situation in such a (realistically) complex fashion. Exploring Bajoran fanaticism, hatred and refusal to stop fighting, while also demonstrating how brutal the Cardassian occupation was, gave DS9, even at this early stage, a great deal of moral complexity. It also did it without betraying Star Trek's principals (which some people have accused): it never suggested either the occupaying Cardassians or post-occupation Bajoran fanatics like Tahna were justified in their actions. Demonstrating both the neccesity of Bajoran terrorism to end the occupation, and the cost to the Bajoran's own morality, was a pleasing degree of sophistication often absent in early TNG (much as I love TNG), where things were so much more black-and-white. I equally enjoyed the episode, later in the season, where Kira has to come to terms with her own inability to overcome the violence (when she "confesses" to Kai Opaka).
As for Garak, yes, he was a joy from the start. I have a suspicion his actions in allowing- indeed, directing- Bashir to overhear were to gain favour with Bashir himself. I assume Garak had already decided Bashir was going to be his local "contact", maybe even his "junior probationist" for a while (if DS9 was going to have to be his home, at least for now, he'd better integrate himself and start putting together his own ring of contacts, learn to balance the factions involved, maybe even occasionally undermine minor Cardassian operations here and there- particularly Central Command ones- in order to make it easier to return and regain favour in the future. As Jellico put it, Cardassians are cautious when alone. Garak presumably has to settle, integrate into the local social structure before becoming bolder and thinking about how he's going to manage a return to grace). As for why it's Bashir, for a multitude of reasons; interest in Bashir's almost-Cardassian intellect, fascination with his un-Cardassian naivity, optimism and general Federation-ness (what's that about?), the thought that he'd be easy to control (as later episodes like "Cardassians" prove: Garak wants Bashir to borrow a runabout for them. Bashir's curiousity means Garak gets what he wants- Bashir gets more savvy about it eventually, of course) and that Bashir would be genuinely interested in a good chat. Plus Garak likes messing with him by being as suggestive and "camp" as possible (though later real friendship evolves). I think it's all about Bashir, although keep in mind it's been a while since I've seen the episode.
As for Garak, yes, he was a joy from the start. I have a suspicion his actions in allowing- indeed, directing- Bashir to overhear were to gain favour with Bashir himself. I assume Garak had already decided Bashir was going to be his local "contact", maybe even his "junior probationist" for a while (if DS9 was going to have to be his home, at least for now, he'd better integrate himself and start putting together his own ring of contacts, learn to balance the factions involved, maybe even occasionally undermine minor Cardassian operations here and there- particularly Central Command ones- in order to make it easier to return and regain favour in the future. As Jellico put it, Cardassians are cautious when alone. Garak presumably has to settle, integrate into the local social structure before becoming bolder and thinking about how he's going to manage a return to grace). As for why it's Bashir, for a multitude of reasons; interest in Bashir's almost-Cardassian intellect, fascination with his un-Cardassian naivity, optimism and general Federation-ness (what's that about?), the thought that he'd be easy to control (as later episodes like "Cardassians" prove: Garak wants Bashir to borrow a runabout for them. Bashir's curiousity means Garak gets what he wants
- Bashir gets more savvy about it eventually, of course) and that Bashir would be genuinely interested in a good chat. Plus Garak likes messing with him by being as suggestive and "camp" as possible (though later real friendship evolves). I think it's all about Bashir, although keep in mind it's been a while since I've seen the episode.
Thor Damar--Just to be clear, I am not one of those who thinks any possible element of desire was actually spoken of openly, or acted on...especially since in my opinion there is absolutely no evidence that Bashir would ever reciprocate such desires. However, I do believe that for whatever reason, Garak DID behave in a way that looks a hell of a lot like someone who is making advances. Could it have been manipulation, as you and DN have alluded to--either to unnerve Bashir or to control him, or both? Oh yeah, a definite possibility. Or maybe there was the seed of something a little more genuine as well. But, like I said...I don't think we have any evidence of anything ever happening beyond what looks like some flirting from Garak.
DN--You make a GREAT point about how the Bajorans are not given absolute moral supremacy. In a way, some of them, like Tahna, have almost absorbed the worst of the Cardassians into themselves. Which makes it QUITE ironic that he was so frightened by the idea of being handed over to the Cardassians--he practically WAS one in his mindset and conduct. For someone like that, it's almost like being afraid of yourself.
To both of you...while I personally am not sure Jellico had the explanation 100% right, I DO think there is something to the idea of a hierarchical/pack instinct in Cardassians. Even with a sentient mind, for someone with such an instinct, being cut off from one's own people without an appropriate transition, without the guarantee of a PLACE in the new society where one is truly accepted, would be traumatic indeed. (In a Round Robin I'm writing for, I ended up going into what loss-of-place, and social upheaval, can really feel like to a Cardassian, and it's not fun, not at all.
)
(BTW, I just noticed I misspelled "Danar" through my entire review. I was tired--but that is a very embarrassing mistake for a Cardassian to make! )
DN--You make a GREAT point about how the Bajorans are not given absolute moral supremacy. In a way, some of them, like Tahna, have almost absorbed the worst of the Cardassians into themselves. Which makes it QUITE ironic that he was so frightened by the idea of being handed over to the Cardassians--he practically WAS one in his mindset and conduct. For someone like that, it's almost like being afraid of yourself.
To both of you...while I personally am not sure Jellico had the explanation 100% right, I DO think there is something to the idea of a hierarchical/pack instinct in Cardassians. Even with a sentient mind, for someone with such an instinct, being cut off from one's own people without an appropriate transition, without the guarantee of a PLACE in the new society where one is truly accepted, would be traumatic indeed. (In a Round Robin I'm writing for, I ended up going into what loss-of-place, and social upheaval, can really feel like to a Cardassian, and it's not fun, not at all.
)(BTW, I just noticed I misspelled "Danar" through my entire review. I was tired--but that is a very embarrassing mistake for a Cardassian to make!
)
Deliberate misinformation, I'm sure, to prevent anyone becoming too familiar with this incident.
speaking of the Bajorans and their relationship with the Cardassians have either of you (NG and DN) read The 34th Rule?
I have, yes. I enjoyed it.
I'm guessing you're thinking of the insane Colonel who, having internalized the brutality the Cardassians inflicted so seriously, he wanted to be "the Gul". That was disturbing, and also fits what Nerys Ghemor says about some Bajorans essentially adopting Cardassian mindsets themselves.
I have, yes. I enjoyed it.
Yes, I definitely remember that. A reverse-Marritza, almost.
Marritza, of course, NEVER wanted to become Gul Darhe'el...he was acting, because he'd absorbed the Bajorans' pain and seemed to feel an almost spiritual (or maybe it WAS spiritual) need to atone and that was the only way he could see to do it.
The destinies of the Cardassians and Bajorans have become so intertwined it's incredible, and quite powerful to watch, on both ends.
"They are dead...let them pass..."
Sorry, I'm missing where that quote comes from and what it refers to?
"Babylon Five", the Narn and Centauri.
An equally powerful, complex, and sophisticated pairing of cultures.
And it's a Khoshism so no wonder it confused you
"understanding is a three edged sword..."
"understanding is a three edged sword..."
I'm going to rewatch Past Prologue later and comment some more... just one thing now...
It's interesting that he seems to have almost dropped the idea in "A Stitch in Time", but he still put a hint that Garak might be bisexual or bicurious, with that casual line that Five Lubak was obviously attracted to Eight - "As, indeed, was I."
No, it's not just you. The writers apparenetly always thought of Garak as heterosexual, but Andrew Robinson said he played him as "omnisexual", until "it started giving people fits" so he decided to tone it down.And then there's plain (HA!) simple (HA!) Garak. He had a VERY interesting introduction indeed...though one would think a tailor wouldn't be caught dead wearing what he was wearing. (UNLESS...unless...he was taking a rather subtle poke at some of the hideous things Federation civilians wear?
It's interesting that he seems to have almost dropped the idea in "A Stitch in Time", but he still put a hint that Garak might be bisexual or bicurious, with that casual line that Five Lubak was obviously attracted to Eight - "As, indeed, was I."
I do interpret Garak's actions as flirtatious in that episode, primarily because the man who played him has openly stated that he wanted to take the character in that direction, but the writers didn't support the idea, so he let it drop. When it comes to interpreting a character, I think the intentions of the actor are very germane, because it is a combination of writing and acting that defines that character.
As to Garak's motivations in that episode, I think there were a lot of layers to it. I'm sure getting the chance to give Central Command a bit of a black eye was part of it. The Obsidian Order is one of their main rivals, after all, and one of Garak's primary motivations from the get-go is that he wants to go home. Anything he can do to put things into place to facilitate that, he is going to do. Never hurts to suck up to his former boss.
Secondly, yes. I think he was throwing a bone to Bashir to cultivate him as a contact. He is also setting up a situation where Bashir owes him a favor, or at least would perceive that he owes him a favor due to his own sense of ethics. When you're all by yourself in a primarily hostile environment, it pays to have contacts in high places. He would know that sucking directly up to Sisko is out. Sisko would see right through it. Kira? She'd punch him in the mouth as soon as look at him. Dax is too sophisticated. Bashir has just the right puppy dog enthusiasm and naivety, but also possesses a keen intellect. I personally got the feeling, particularly as the series developed, that Garak became genuine friends with Bashir in spite of himself. He's not immune to the effects of loneliness and isolation, and it would be hard to resist the entertainment of jousting with an intellect close to if not equal to the level of his own when he's surrounded by others who can't hold a candle to him.
It's not surprising to me that some Bajorans would become very like Cardassians during the occupation. It's a power paradigm that shaped many of them from the time they were children. When you're oppressed to that degree, you can't look to your own parents as power figures. They're as oppressed as you are. A lot of kids in that situation wind up feeling a conflicted sort of subconscious contempt for their parents and elders, because from the child's perspective, the very people who are supposed to protect them won't. They don't see the difference between won't and can't at that age. So then who do they look to as a model of strength? The oppressors. How does one gain a sense of mastery with that as a role model? One patterns after it.
Even here on earth we have a lot of parallels to that. Pre-Civil War in the states, many former slaves went on to own slaves. It's a controversial topic, one not often discussed in history classes, but it happened. It's true that some of them did so in order to help and protect people they knew, but some of them were as brutal and oppressive as their former masters if not more so. It's one of those questions psychology keeps trying to answer but hasn't been able to yet. Why do some people who are abused and mistreated go on to do the same or worse to others when others become far more empathetic and kinder from their experiences? I'm not sure we'll ever have that answer. I was thrilled that DS9 decided to examine it, though.
As to Garak's motivations in that episode, I think there were a lot of layers to it. I'm sure getting the chance to give Central Command a bit of a black eye was part of it. The Obsidian Order is one of their main rivals, after all, and one of Garak's primary motivations from the get-go is that he wants to go home. Anything he can do to put things into place to facilitate that, he is going to do. Never hurts to suck up to his former boss.
Secondly, yes. I think he was throwing a bone to Bashir to cultivate him as a contact. He is also setting up a situation where Bashir owes him a favor, or at least would perceive that he owes him a favor due to his own sense of ethics. When you're all by yourself in a primarily hostile environment, it pays to have contacts in high places. He would know that sucking directly up to Sisko is out. Sisko would see right through it. Kira? She'd punch him in the mouth as soon as look at him. Dax is too sophisticated. Bashir has just the right puppy dog enthusiasm and naivety, but also possesses a keen intellect. I personally got the feeling, particularly as the series developed, that Garak became genuine friends with Bashir in spite of himself. He's not immune to the effects of loneliness and isolation, and it would be hard to resist the entertainment of jousting with an intellect close to if not equal to the level of his own when he's surrounded by others who can't hold a candle to him.
It's not surprising to me that some Bajorans would become very like Cardassians during the occupation. It's a power paradigm that shaped many of them from the time they were children. When you're oppressed to that degree, you can't look to your own parents as power figures. They're as oppressed as you are. A lot of kids in that situation wind up feeling a conflicted sort of subconscious contempt for their parents and elders, because from the child's perspective, the very people who are supposed to protect them won't. They don't see the difference between won't and can't at that age. So then who do they look to as a model of strength? The oppressors. How does one gain a sense of mastery with that as a role model? One patterns after it.
Even here on earth we have a lot of parallels to that. Pre-Civil War in the states, many former slaves went on to own slaves. It's a controversial topic, one not often discussed in history classes, but it happened. It's true that some of them did so in order to help and protect people they knew, but some of them were as brutal and oppressive as their former masters if not more so. It's one of those questions psychology keeps trying to answer but hasn't been able to yet. Why do some people who are abused and mistreated go on to do the same or worse to others when others become far more empathetic and kinder from their experiences? I'm not sure we'll ever have that answer. I was thrilled that DS9 decided to examine it, though.
In the meantime, I've watched "Past Prologue", "A Man Alone" and "Babel". I'm thinking of starting my own rewatch thread, but maybe there are too many already? :-/ I am still not sure what kind of rewatch it is going to be, at first I wanted to skip some of the weaker or less interesting episodes, but now that I've watched the first 4 (or is it 5) in order, I realize that there are lots of stuff I have I forgotten or did not pay attention because I was distracted when I watched the episode on TV, etc... and even the weaker or average episodes can have some great stuff in them. So now I'm thinking of doing a full rewatch... but it will take a lot of time, and I am too impatient to wait to get to some of the episodes... So maybe I'll go out of order and first watch them thematically, i.e. the Cardassian episodes and the Kira/Bajorans episodes from the first few seasons first, and then later go back and watch the rest in order. I still haven't made up my mind.
Anyway... for now I'll post just a few observations in Nerys' thread.
Anyway... just like every time in a similar situation, I felt the need to answer with that my signature, i.e. Garak's line from "Second Skin". I felt a little irritated that Kira apologized to Tahna, alhough it makes sense for her character at the time. But it's just one of those moments when you can't help thinking "what are you apologizing for to that jerk?"
This was a strong episode, stronger than I remembered it. And it makes sense that it was decided it should air before "A Man Alone" - although that one was not bad, either. It is an important episode that does a lot to develop Kira, define her loyalties and her new role and her relationship with Sisko. (A minor observation - I never understood why some people had a problem with her hairstyle or her early look in general - I don't find her hair or look 'mannish' or whatever else some people said, at all. She looked great - as she did with different hairstyles she had later. But I always had a girlcrush on Kira and found her much more attractive than Dax.)
It's nice to see the important relationships established very early - the depth of Odo/Kira friendship is highlighted in both PP and AMA, although we'll have to wait till season 2 to get the explanation on its history. "Babel" is full of good Odo/Quark moments; Quark is really one of the characters that was established in the fastest and easiest way. Unlike, for instance, Bashir. He really was as annoying as I remembered him back then. Is he the character that changed the most during the course of the show? It was weird, however, to hear Jadzia smugly say that Trills are too mature to care about dating and sex, since it totally contradicts everything we would subsequentlylearn about the Trills, Curzon and Jadzia herself. It was also weird to hear Odo say that he knew Quark wa lying when he said Rom had repaired the replicator, because "Rom is an idiot". Well, Rom still seemed like an idiot a few seasons later, but he turned out ot be a super-talented engineer... Irony or what?
One thing that strikes me during this rewatch is that Sisko is actually very well established as a character from the start - from the way he smilingly blackmails Quark in the pilot, to the way he threatens Kira in 'Past Prologue", it's already clear that this guy is really not Picard (although he'll only say it a couple episodes later...) - and that Avery Brooks was much better than I remembered it. I was long in two minds about his acting, due to his strange, histrionic diction that he always has when he gets into big, dramatic speeches... but now that I have gotten used to it, I don't really have a problem with it, I see it as a part of Sisko's persona. Still, I think Brooks is better in his more restrained, low-key moments and I think he was actually already excellent in these early episodes.
As for Cardassians, well, I would argue that Gul Evec was portrayed in a rather balanced way, and that we got to see him at the of "Journey's End" as a sufficiently reasonable person, with a human (for the lack of better word) side (when he says he lost two sons in the war and doesn't want to lose the third as well). But on DS9, the Cardassians had up to this point only seemed like bullies and a constant background threat. What especially strikes me is that 2 out of 3 military guls we met in the first 2 episodes (Jasad in "Emissary" and Danar in "Past Prologue") came off as boorish, rude, in a constantly bad mood, and probably not too smart I'm sure I'd be missing Dukat at this point even if I was a first-time watcher. Then I remembered that even later, many of the Cardassian military characters seemed thuggish and a bit dim (Rusot, early Damar) an that Dukat's snakelike charm and panache is an exception rather than the rule. But - speaking of charming, flamboyant snakes - AMA fortunately introduces Garak, which more than makes up for gul Danar's boorishness. However, it is almost painful to think that he won't reappear till season 2, and that Cardassians will play a minor role in season 1 until 'Duet".
Come to think, how many Cardassians we've seen are actually slu and scheming? Other than Dukat, Garak and a couple of other Obsidian order people, most minor Cardies have either been of the thuggish variety described above, or they were nice and honest people like Tekeny Ghemor. Which is actually more realistic than if they made every Cardassian sly, witty and mysterious.
However, one thing that I found particularly interesting in those early episodes is that, while Cardassians seemed like classic villains at the time, the real main villains in each of the episodes were all Bajorans. You can see that the show enjoyed confounding expectations early on. After being introduced to Bajorans in "Emissary" as a spiritual people who have suffered terribly, and getting to know them only through a plucky, tough-as-nails heroine with a dark past (Kira) and an an angelic wise middle-aged religious woman (Kai Opaka), with "Past Prologue" and "A Man Alone" we had two episodes in a row with very different Bajoran villains: a nationalistic extremist and very dangerous terrorist (Tahna Los), an immoral and opportunistic ex-black marketeer and murderer (Ibudan), and a bloodthirsty mob out to lynch Odo not so much for being a former 'collaborator' or a suspect in a murder case, as much as simply being different. And although "Babel" does not have a villain, again it turns out, for the 3rd episode in a row, that it's the Bajorans who have caused the problem, rather than the Cardassians, and the closest thing to an antagonist is the late scientist's assistant, a selfish arsehole who does not give a damn about people on the station dying if there's a chance he'll get in trouble - and who does end up saving the day, but only after being abducted by Kira and forced to find an antidote in order to save his own skin.
This has got me thinking about all the other minor and not so minor Bajoran characters throughout DS9, and it's made me realize a couple of things. First off, Bajorans may be actually the race with the widest variety in characterization in Trek - possibly even more so than the Cardassians, and definitely more so than Trek Humans.
And second, I think I finally understand why some Trek fans hate Bajorans so much or call them "boring" - same reason why I love them and find them interesting. Out of all the races in Trek, they are most similar to humans - not the 'evolved' 24th century Trek humans, but the humans as we know them, real, unevolved, 20th century humans. But I'll elaborate more on this in a separate thread.
Anyway... for now I'll post just a few observations in Nerys' thread.
Well I have to say I have no idea what you mean! What popped into your mind?OK, just re-watched "Past Prologue."
The first thing I found myself wondering, just as I've seen other people speculate on in DS9-related threads, is how this episode would have been tackled...indeed, how it would have been written today. I know, certainly, that my perspectives have shifted. The person that I was when I first watched DS9, and who I've become now...definitely very, very different. And I realized there's only one reason that these plots still work, to my mind.
And that is the conduct of the Cardassians during the Occupation--which was, of course, WAY beyond the pale. Given that the Bajoran Resistance was fighting an enemy that was CLEARLY committing atrocities, we are able as viewers to sympathize. And yet even back then, before the way society changed, it was clear that there are lines you just don't cross, whatever the provocation, and that Tahna Los had gone WAY over that line.
But, I must admit there was part of me that, when Gul Donar began his "I Told You So," felt like Sisko and the Feddies deserved it. If it hadn't been for Kira having an attack of conscience, the naive Starfleeters would almost certainly have been played and Kira would likely have died a traitor, never having a chance to repent for her mistake. (Or at least Odo would've had a MUCH harder time gathering the necessary evidence to stop things from getting out of hand, before time ran out.)
I do think this episode could've taken an interesting, even darker turn, if Sisko had been forced to make good on his promise to the Cardassians...a promise that I think helped set DS9 further away from its TNG origins. I simply cannot imagine Picard playing that kind of hardball, and the fact that Sisko did--wow. (On the other hand, such a scenario would've been right at home on RDM's later work, Battlestar Galactica...and I must note how interesting it is as a nuBsG fan to watch DS9 and see some of the "roots" of certain things that were explored in greater depth on nuBsG.) But considering this is Trek we're talking about, and Sisko hasn't actually had his major dalliances with the devil yet, even the very threat must have been shocking to Trek fans of the time.
And then there's plain (HA!) simple (HA!) Garak. He had a VERY interesting introduction indeed...though one would think a tailor wouldn't be caught dead wearing what he was wearing. (UNLESS...unless...he was taking a rather subtle poke at some of the hideous things Federation civilians wear?
But let's put aside any possible shipping (which I'm not 100% sure of myself, anyway), and look at something else interesting: Garak's motivations in letting Bashir overhear the deal he cut with Lursa and B'Etor. Why would he do something so beneficial to his people, something likely to result in setting Tahna up for arrest, and let a Starfleet officer overhear? I think there are a LOT of possible motives here. I wonder which one you guys will think is likely? Or is it all or none of the below?
1) A move to curry favor with Starfleet and thus avoid getting kicked off the station--and being able to continue as a spy.
2) A way to LOOK good to whoever he's reporting to--and then burn them in revenge for ditching him on the station, without looking like he's involved in it. ("Oh, the Feddies just happened to figure it out. I have NO idea how THAT happened!"
3) Maaaaaybe some part of Garak was a little bit tired of all the bloodshed and torture, at least right in that moment? Getting Tahna caught by the Federation certainly ensures different treatment than letting Donar do it. (Though I would say, if this theory is true, it would be a temporary sentiment brought on by the first shock of exile.)
My last point has to do with the Cardassians. It's very strange to me, knowing what we know about them by the end of the series, to see them played as strictly bad guys in this episode--well, except for Garak, of course, who is...who knows what. But when you think about it, it really is remarkable just how far the Cardassians are going to come. At this point in Trek history, we've only had one clear hint of something different with a Cardassian...and that is Glinn Daro in "The Wounded." So given that, the way they're played here makes sense. But isn't it amazing just how far the Cardassians will come from this point?
All the way to a point where at the very end, when Tahna insults Kira as a "traitor," the first rebuttal to pop into my mind was in THE most inappropriate tongue possible--the language I created because of how I was inspired by what the Cardassians eventually become!
Anyway... just like every time in a similar situation, I felt the need to answer with that my signature, i.e. Garak's line from "Second Skin". I felt a little irritated that Kira apologized to Tahna, alhough it makes sense for her character at the time. But it's just one of those moments when you can't help thinking "what are you apologizing for to that jerk?"
This was a strong episode, stronger than I remembered it. And it makes sense that it was decided it should air before "A Man Alone" - although that one was not bad, either. It is an important episode that does a lot to develop Kira, define her loyalties and her new role and her relationship with Sisko. (A minor observation - I never understood why some people had a problem with her hairstyle or her early look in general - I don't find her hair or look 'mannish' or whatever else some people said, at all. She looked great - as she did with different hairstyles she had later. But I always had a girlcrush on Kira and found her much more attractive than Dax.
)It's nice to see the important relationships established very early - the depth of Odo/Kira friendship is highlighted in both PP and AMA, although we'll have to wait till season 2 to get the explanation on its history. "Babel" is full of good Odo/Quark moments; Quark is really one of the characters that was established in the fastest and easiest way. Unlike, for instance, Bashir. He really was as annoying as I remembered him back then. Is he the character that changed the most during the course of the show? It was weird, however, to hear Jadzia smugly say that Trills are too mature to care about dating and sex, since it totally contradicts everything we would subsequentlylearn about the Trills, Curzon and Jadzia herself. It was also weird to hear Odo say that he knew Quark wa lying when he said Rom had repaired the replicator, because "Rom is an idiot". Well, Rom still seemed like an idiot a few seasons later, but he turned out ot be a super-talented engineer... Irony or what?
One thing that strikes me during this rewatch is that Sisko is actually very well established as a character from the start - from the way he smilingly blackmails Quark in the pilot, to the way he threatens Kira in 'Past Prologue", it's already clear that this guy is really not Picard (although he'll only say it a couple episodes later...) - and that Avery Brooks was much better than I remembered it. I was long in two minds about his acting, due to his strange, histrionic diction that he always has when he gets into big, dramatic speeches... but now that I have gotten used to it, I don't really have a problem with it, I see it as a part of Sisko's persona. Still, I think Brooks is better in his more restrained, low-key moments and I think he was actually already excellent in these early episodes.
As for Cardassians, well, I would argue that Gul Evec was portrayed in a rather balanced way, and that we got to see him at the of "Journey's End" as a sufficiently reasonable person, with a human (for the lack of better word) side (when he says he lost two sons in the war and doesn't want to lose the third as well). But on DS9, the Cardassians had up to this point only seemed like bullies and a constant background threat. What especially strikes me is that 2 out of 3 military guls we met in the first 2 episodes (Jasad in "Emissary" and Danar in "Past Prologue") came off as boorish, rude, in a constantly bad mood, and probably not too smart I'm sure I'd be missing Dukat at this point even if I was a first-time watcher. Then I remembered that even later, many of the Cardassian military characters seemed thuggish and a bit dim (Rusot, early Damar) an that Dukat's snakelike charm and panache is an exception rather than the rule. But - speaking of charming, flamboyant snakes - AMA fortunately introduces Garak, which more than makes up for gul Danar's boorishness. However, it is almost painful to think that he won't reappear till season 2, and that Cardassians will play a minor role in season 1 until 'Duet".
Come to think, how many Cardassians we've seen are actually slu and scheming? Other than Dukat, Garak and a couple of other Obsidian order people, most minor Cardies have either been of the thuggish variety described above, or they were nice and honest people like Tekeny Ghemor. Which is actually more realistic than if they made every Cardassian sly, witty and mysterious.
However, one thing that I found particularly interesting in those early episodes is that, while Cardassians seemed like classic villains at the time, the real main villains in each of the episodes were all Bajorans. You can see that the show enjoyed confounding expectations early on. After being introduced to Bajorans in "Emissary" as a spiritual people who have suffered terribly, and getting to know them only through a plucky, tough-as-nails heroine with a dark past (Kira) and an an angelic wise middle-aged religious woman (Kai Opaka), with "Past Prologue" and "A Man Alone" we had two episodes in a row with very different Bajoran villains: a nationalistic extremist and very dangerous terrorist (Tahna Los), an immoral and opportunistic ex-black marketeer and murderer (Ibudan), and a bloodthirsty mob out to lynch Odo not so much for being a former 'collaborator' or a suspect in a murder case, as much as simply being different. And although "Babel" does not have a villain, again it turns out, for the 3rd episode in a row, that it's the Bajorans who have caused the problem, rather than the Cardassians, and the closest thing to an antagonist is the late scientist's assistant, a selfish arsehole who does not give a damn about people on the station dying if there's a chance he'll get in trouble - and who does end up saving the day, but only after being abducted by Kira and forced to find an antidote in order to save his own skin.
This has got me thinking about all the other minor and not so minor Bajoran characters throughout DS9, and it's made me realize a couple of things. First off, Bajorans may be actually the race with the widest variety in characterization in Trek - possibly even more so than the Cardassians, and definitely more so than Trek Humans.
And second, I think I finally understand why some Trek fans hate Bajorans so much or call them "boring" - same reason why I love them and find them interesting. Out of all the races in Trek, they are most similar to humans - not the 'evolved' 24th century Trek humans, but the humans as we know them, real, unevolved, 20th century humans. But I'll elaborate more on this in a separate thread.
