Changing last name after marriage: Who takes whose?

[Scout101]

^because the argument is couched in such a way that to disagree with you is to be labeled sexist. As well as the poor, whipped chattel of women that have changed their name to signify that they are property that has changed hands.

You are arguing the point just fine, but stating it so that if you disagree, you're sexist. At least, that's how I'm seeing the argument going...

 

[All Seeing Eye]

In cases of Man/Woman marriage the woman should always take the Mans name. It is the way of things plus when it comes to genealogy and tracing ancestors it's easier if the woman always takes the mans name otherwise confusion could occur when tracing backwards.

 

[Scout101]

your wife didn't hesitate at that attitude?

 

[All Seeing Eye]

your wife didn't hesitate at that attitude?

She was happy to take my name.

 

[Scout101]

But she liked that you didn't present her with at least the choice?

 

[All Seeing Eye]

She didn't need a choice, she thinks the same way I do and wanted to take my name.
If I had taken her name, and our kids were to have her name then my family name would not continue on past me, I am the last male carrying my family name capable of passing it on.
To kill off a family name, to mess up a family tree over something as trivial as this new age rubbish of a man taking the womans last name is barmy.

 

[iguana_tonante]

You are not helping any body's cause, Tachy.

Just making everybody very uncomfortable.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

You are not helping any body's cause, Tachy.

Just making everybody very uncomfortable.

I think your reaction to my belief is a major over-reaction. You feel uncomfortable because I think women should continue to take the mans name in marriage? There's a lot more things in this world you should be feeling uncomfortable with and this aint one of them.

Well i'm sorry but i've got my beliefs and my belief is that Women should continue to take the mans name because quite frankly it doesn't matter.

There's really no good reason why that should be changed now just because certain people feel the need to make a statement of "oh look, my husband took my name instead of me taking his".
What ultimate purpose is there to change it? why changed centuries of tradition just to make a statement?

For the sake of genealogy and for future generations to be able to follow a family tree and not get confused, just keep with how it's been for centuries.

 

[Scout101]

more the presentation than the argument, Tachy. Most people would agree with your general premise (not that women HAVE to, but that many/most will), but the way you are presenting it (like there's no choice, your word is final) is fairly off-putting and wrong, really...

 

[All Seeing Eye]

but the way you are presenting it (like there's no choice, your word is final) is fairly off-putting and wrong, really...

I'm not presenting it like that, i'm just expressing my personal opinion.

How else am I supposed to put it that I believe Women should take the Mans name? other than to just come out and say it.

 

[Scout101]

I'm not presenting it like that, i'm just expressing my personal opinion.

You are, though, IMO. See?

In cases of Man/Woman marriage the woman should always take the Mans name. It is the way of things

She didn't need a choice

Again, I agree with your general notion insofar as that I'd want my wife to take my name (and fiance has already said she is planning to), but you're presenting it in such a way as to imply that it's mandatory, or that women should have no say in the matter, which isn't right. Even if they end up deciding to take your name, they still get a choice...

 

[All Seeing Eye]

I'm not presenting it like that, i'm just expressing my personal opinion.

You are, though, IMO. See?

In cases of Man/Woman marriage the woman should always take the Mans name. It is the way of things

She didn't need a choice

Again, I agree with your general notion insofar as that I'd want my wife to take my name (and fiance has already said she is planning to), but you're presenting it in such a way as to imply that it's mandatory, or that women should have no say in the matter, which isn't right. Even if they end up deciding to take your name, they still get a choice...

I said "she didn't need a choice" because I explained she thinks the same as me and wanted to take my name. She thinks the same that women should take the mans name, if she thinks like that then why would she require a choice.

 

[JustKate]

This conversation with you is bumming me out.

Why?

I can't speak for Kestra, but I kind of agree with her. The "bumming out" part for me is that this is one of those conversations in which almost everybody is being really polite and everything and yet...it doesn't seem as though much actual communication is going on. You still really seem to feel that most women who change their names do so primarily because of societal pressure. That's a perfectly tenable theory, except that here you have actual women (and some men, for that matter), some of whom have changed their names, some of whom have not, some of whom have done both, some of whom haven't had to make that decision yet, all talking from their own and their friends' and families' personal experience, and that doesn't seem to affect you at all. There you are politely and eruditely writing stuff that sounds as though you're quoting sociological texts, whereas I and some of my female cohorts are trying to tell you what this is like from real life...and you seem to dismiss that. Politely and eruditely, but still dismissively.

And looking at it from the other side, I still don't understand your point of view entirely either, which is also a bit depressing.

I don't hold it against you or anything, but yeah, it is kind of a bummer. So many words, so little communication.

Edit: Meanwhile, Tachyon Shield's position is really depressing. But I don't expect I need to explain why about that.

 

[iguana_tonante]

more the presentation than the argument, Tachy.

Yeah, that. Opposite to Scout101, I don't agree with you, but it doen't really matter. There are better way to express your point, like JustKate and Nerys Ghemor did.

I said "she didn't need a choice" because I explained she thinks the same as me and wanted to take my name. She thinks the same that women should take the mans name, if she thinks like that then why would she require a choice.

Then she had a choice. If she didn't, it would not matter if she wanted or not: she would have to. Having no choice in making a decision about your name is a limitation of personal freedom, even if you agree with the outcome.

 

[Shaw]

The last name thing has to be the choice of the person who's name would be changing. I've been married twice, and both times it was totally their choice (and both ended up taking my last name).

The thing is, my last name isn't the the one I was born with anyways. My father's last name wasn't the same as the one his father was born with either. So it isn't like there is some family attachment to my last name (either the one I have now or the one I was born with).

In the end the old line is as true as ever..."What's in a name? that which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

My love and adoration of my wife has nothing to do with her name, it has to do with who she is.

 

[Thor Damar]

^ That's a good point by JustKate. I can't speak from my own experience (not being married) but judging from my parents, who are still happly married after 36 years, it all comes down to a matter of choice.
My mum chose to take my fathers surname for several reasons, firstly to show her love for my dad, secondly because some of the things from my father's side were more appealing (which is why I was baptised a Roman Catholic) and finally because it was preferable to her maiden name which is a very, very common English last name.

The important thing to note in all this is the right of both sides to choose, I don't think that a man should force his name on his wife just because it's tradition nor should the husband be forced to give up his surname if he doesn't want to.
I for one like my surname and if I ever meet a women foolish enough to marry me I would like to keep my name but I would not force it on her.

Now that's probably too simplistic and if it seems too abstract please feel free to chew me out, it's the only way I'll learn.

 

[JustKate]

^ No, no - you've got it exactly, Thor, if you ask me. All this social theory stuff is just that - theory. And it's at times pie-in-the-sky theory, at that. In the end, the theory doesn't matter nearly as much as the plain ol' real life fact of two people getting married and trying to decide what name or names the family they are creating will use.

 

[Kestra]

This conversation with you is bumming me out.

Why?

I can't speak for Kestra, but I kind of agree with her. The "bumming out" part for me is that this is one of those conversations in which almost everybody is being really polite and everything and yet...it doesn't seem as though much actual communication is going on. You still really seem to feel that most women who change their names do so primarily because of societal pressure. That's a perfectly tenable theory, except that here you have actual women (and some men, for that matter), some of whom have changed their names, some of whom have not, some of whom have done both, some of whom haven't had to make that decision yet, all talking from their own and their friends' and families' personal experience, and that doesn't seem to affect you at all. There you are politely and eruditely writing stuff that sounds as though you're quoting sociological texts, whereas I and some of my female cohorts are trying to tell you what this is like from real life...and you seem to dismiss that. Politely and eruditely, but still dismissively.

And looking at it from the other side, I still don't understand your point of view entirely either, which is also a bit depressing.

I don't hold it against you or anything, but yeah, it is kind of a bummer. So many words, so little communication.

Edit: Meanwhile, Tachyon Shield's position is really depressing. But I don't expect I need to explain why about that.

She explained it much better than I could.

RJ, I feel like ... I'm a woman, I have these conversations with my friends and co-workers, I have these conversations on a regular basis because of the field that I work in, and each time I tell you something you just dismiss it as "in the minority."

I wonder exactly what sort of company you think I keep. I don't think that my friends and clients represent the whole spectrum, but there are quite varied backgrounds. Those who have come from backgrounds more conservative, and others quite progressive.

I mean, maybe you're right. Maybe it's all in the minority and we all do it because of different pressures and traditions and we're deluding ourselves to think otherwise. I think I've just been so insistent because I've been surprised at what I've seen myself.

I remember having this conversation with one of my clients. She was Muslim, marrying another Muslim in a very traditional ceremony. The men and women were separated on different sides of the room during the reception, with a half-wall in between. There was no music. There was no dancing. If men needed to talk to their wives, they would describe their wife to me, and I would go into that side of the room to go and find her. My client, the bride, felt quite comfortable with me and talked to me about all sorts of things. When the subject of changing her name came up and I asked her if she had considered it, she probably ended up speaking with me about it for three hours. But in all the time that she spoke, all the reasons that she listed, not once did she mention that her family or her husband would want her to change her name. I specifically asked her if that was a consideration, and she said that it was not.

In the minority? Probably. But it's annoying to have you dismiss every single thing because you feel it represents such a small sub-section of people.

I keep coming back to this:

We're living in a transitional time now, so more of them than ever will feel empowered to do what they really want. But the majority of women still take their husband's name; I suspect that in a perfect world, it would be a small fraction.

I suspect that in a perfect world, the fraction would be higher than you think. I suspect that many women enjoy having the choice, but choosing tradition.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

"What's in a name?

Family History and pride.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

I'm not presenting it like that, i'm just expressing my personal opinion.

You are, though, IMO. See?

In cases of Man/Woman marriage the woman should always take the Mans name. It is the way of things

She didn't need a choice

Again, I agree with your general notion insofar as that I'd want my wife to take my name (and fiance has already said she is planning to), but you're presenting it in such a way as to imply that it's mandatory, or that women should have no say in the matter, which isn't right. Even if they end up deciding to take your name, they still get a choice...

Not necessarily. If my wife had not taken my name I would not have married her. I'm sure many men feel that way too.