Chakotay as the Noble Savage

[Lynx]

^^
And still you're writing stories about "Tonto".

Well, you hate what they did to Kes and write stories about her.

Am I not allowed to fix their Chakotay blunders as best as I can?

Well, you do have a point there!

 

[teya]

Like you said the writers weren't intending to be racist - they were simply taking a Native American character and defining him as strong according to European terms - not the terms of the Native American culture as it exists today.

Does this send warning bells off?

European culture subjugated Native Americans.

So in 1995, TPTB write a Native American with all the cute little stereotypes that European culture has dumped on us, that make us such noble savages...

Can you see how this is offensive from this perspective?

And by the way, it's not just Native American culture as "it exists today." We've been around a long time.

It's simply that the majority culture never realized that we had any way of looking at ourselves that was different than theirs--until recently.

 

[kimc]

And by the way, it's not just Native American culture as "it exists today." We've been around a long time.

True but who is to say what your culture (or mine for that matter) will look like in a few hundred years?

Also, there are very few writers that can write someone from another culture with any degree of authenticity. This is where either experience living in that culture or consulting with someone from that culture helps.

 

[exodus]

^^
And still you're writing stories about "Tonto".

Was that a joke?

No, more a question.

If I regarded a fictional character as something of a stereotype of my people and I would find that somewhat annoying, I don't think I would write stories about that character.

Don't you do it with Kes?(not that she's one of your people.)
You make up stories about her because you refuse to accept how she was written, what's the difference?

 

[teya]

And by the way, it's not just Native American culture as "it exists today." We've been around a long time.

True but who is to say what your culture (or mine for that matter) will look like in a few hundred years?

Also, there are very few writers that can write someone from another culture with any degree of authenticity. This is where either experience living in that culture or consulting with someone from that culture helps.

And Los Angeles has the largest urban Indian population in the US--with tens of thousands of Mayans alone living in our fair city. I daresay TPTB even had Mayans working in their homes or gardens while they were writing Voyager.

There are *plenty* of sources they could have used.

 

[exodus]

And by the way, it's not just Native American culture as "it exists today." We've been around a long time.

True but who is to say what your culture (or mine for that matter) will look like in a few hundred years?

Also, there are very few writers that can write someone from another culture with any degree of authenticity. This is where either experience living in that culture or consulting with someone from that culture helps.

That doesn't excuse anybody from stereotyping.

 

[exodus]

And by the way, it's not just Native American culture as "it exists today." We've been around a long time.

True but who is to say what your culture (or mine for that matter) will look like in a few hundred years?

Also, there are very few writers that can write someone from another culture with any degree of authenticity. This is where either experience living in that culture or consulting with someone from that culture helps.

And Los Angeles has the largest urban Indian population in the US--with tens of thousands of Mayans alone living in our fair city. I daresay TPTB even had Mayans working in their homes or gardens while they were writing Voyager.

There are *plenty* of sources they could have used.

The labor workers that helped bulid all those sets as well.
They were right there on the studio lot.

 

[Lynx]

Was that a joke?

No, more a question.

If I regarded a fictional character as something of a stereotype of my people and I would find that somewhat annoying, I don't think I would write stories about that character.

Don't you do it with Kes?(not that she's one of your people.)
You make up stories about her because you refuse to accept how she was written, what's the difference?

Well, if we should nitpick that, there are some differences.

Kes had one main flaw, the life-span which was unrealistic. So I fixed that.

I also fixed the destruction made to the character in two episodes ("The Gift" and "Fury") which were made only to get rid of and finally destroy the character.

Otherwise I'm quite happy with the character. I don't see her as a stereotype which could be regarded as offensive to neither my people nor any other people.

If they had made the character some sort of Nordic, not-so-intelligent-photo-model-bimbo stereotype (which I've actually seen examples of in other series), I might have been slightly annoyed. But in that case, I would probable have disliked the character because of that and never bothered to write stories about her.

 

[teya]

No, more a question.

If I regarded a fictional character as something of a stereotype of my people and I would find that somewhat annoying, I don't think I would write stories about that character.

Don't you do it with Kes?(not that she's one of your people.)
You make up stories about her because you refuse to accept how she was written, what's the difference?

Well, if we should nitpick that, there are some differences.

Kes had one main flaw, the life-span which was unrealistic. So I fixed that.

I also fixed the destruction made to the character in two episodes ("The Gift" and "Fury") which were made only to get rid of and finally destroy the character.

Otherwise I'm quite happy with the character. I don't see her as a stereotype which could be regarded as offensive to neither my people nor any other people.

If they had made the character some sort of Nordic, not-so-intelligent-photo-model-bimbo stereotype (which I've actually seen examples of in other series), I might have been slightly annoyed. But in that case, I would probable have disliked the character because of that and never bothered to write stories about her.

Well, then, look at it this way, Lynx. You are a better human and writer than I am.

 

[exodus]

No, more a question.

If I regarded a fictional character as something of a stereotype of my people and I would find that somewhat annoying, I don't think I would write stories about that character.

Don't you do it with Kes?(not that she's one of your people.)
You make up stories about her because you refuse to accept how she was written, what's the difference?

Well, if we should nitpick that, there are some differences.

Must we?

You got the point, that's what mattered.

Teya, don't encourage him.
Only kidding, Lynx.

 

[Lynx]

Don't you do it with Kes?(not that she's one of your people.)
You make up stories about her because you refuse to accept how she was written, what's the difference?

Well, if we should nitpick that, there are some differences.

Kes had one main flaw, the life-span which was unrealistic. So I fixed that.

I also fixed the destruction made to the character in two episodes ("The Gift" and "Fury") which were made only to get rid of and finally destroy the character.

Otherwise I'm quite happy with the character. I don't see her as a stereotype which could be regarded as offensive to neither my people nor any other people.

If they had made the character some sort of Nordic, not-so-intelligent-photo-model-bimbo stereotype (which I've actually seen examples of in other series), I might have been slightly annoyed. But in that case, I would probable have disliked the character because of that and never bothered to write stories about her.

Well, then, look at it this way, Lynx. You are a better human and writer than I am.

Why are you always so downright nasty and ironic?

 

[teya]

^ I believe the word you're looking for is "sarcastic."

However in this case I wasn't being sarcastic. I was agreeing with you.

I figure if my reasons for writing fanfic need to be nitpicked to death, then obviously, I was wrong for writing it in the first place.

 

[Lynx]

Agreeing with me? Yeah right!

Sarcastic, nasty and ironic is what the reply was.

Anyway, I see no reason to continue this debate with you.

 

[JustKate]

Lynx, if Teya meant her reply to be ironic, don't you think she'd say so? She's always very upfront, Teya is.

 

[exodus]

Lynx, if Teya meant her reply to be ironic, don't you think she'd say so? She's always very upfront, Teya is.

Agreed.

If anything Teya is always boldly honest.

 

[JustKate]

Exactly. I have never found her to be anything but.

 

[exodus]

Exactly. I have never found her to be anything but.

Speak it!

 

[kimc]

And by the way, it's not just Native American culture as "it exists today." We've been around a long time.

True but who is to say what your culture (or mine for that matter) will look like in a few hundred years?

Also, there are very few writers that can write someone from another culture with any degree of authenticity. This is where either experience living in that culture or consulting with someone from that culture helps.

That doesn't excuse anybody from stereotyping.

Are you responding to what I said or just throwing that out there?

Let's recap: I said above that there are few writers that can write another culture without either experiencing that culture firsthand or consulting with someone from that culture. I'm not sure where the excusing anybody from stereotyping part comes in...

 

[Guy Gardener]

Isn't it obvious that Chakotay is faking it to get some?

He's a 24th century fox, not a 17th century throwback.

His tribe SO used bows and arrows, and they could SO make fire just by snarling at wood, it's just this Indian doesn't know slap about what it means embrace the ancient west, other thant that it's amazing how much puntang(Sp?) a few feathers and an "achoochimoia" now and then can queue up... It's just unfortunate that Janeway is either immune, or just too smart to be falling for his hamfisted dishonest pageantry.

Hmmm?

Why am I suddenly thinking about Crocodile Dundee, if I must draw another media reference about a girl from an advanced civilization falling for the earthy woos of a noble savage?

 

[JustKate]

Why am I suddenly thinking about Crocodile Dundee, if I must draw another media reference about a girl from an advanced civilization falling for the earthy woos of a noble savage?

Because you are so well-versed in the "classics," Guy...