The last British WWI survivor passes away...

[Deranged Nasat]

The only reason you HAVE "the hindsight of history and my own liberated status" is because they went to war! Plus, that is an incredible arrogant thing to say - to imagine that you are so much more intelligent than they were! They knew what they were fighting for. you seem to think that they were living in some sort of dark age where no one had any education and followed orders like blind sheep! We are no more intelligent that any one of those soldiers..

Your first comment means nothing, as far as I can tell. History ends if wars aren't fought, is that what you're saying? Also, I said nothing about intelligence. You said that. I'm talking about my freedom from oppressive philosophies that suggest my life and health and feelings and security are less important than anyone elses'. My upbringing has given me priviliges those veterans never had. I am luckier, not more intelligent. I didn't spend my childhood having it drummed into my head that to fight for others is how I earn respect and is my duty or purpose.

[What would you suggest, if the same situation were to arise today? Imagine that Hitler is currently murdering Jewish people left right and centre, and is heading to your home town next. Naturally you do not wish to fight! That would be exploitation! How do you proceed?.

Might as well fight. Either way I'm going to suffer. Nazi policy in many regions was to send all males aged 15-60 to POW camps. If the Nazis had invaded Britain, for that reason or for any number of others I would have had my freedom taken from me, and be thrown into a situation where I would certainly suffer and probably die. If I joined the military- or was forced into it- it's the same outcome. You mentioned Jews- do you really think the Jews are the only people to whom the words "never again" have meaning? How do you think a Jew would feel to see one of his or her people applauded and paraded due to "bravely submitting to a concentration camp"? Do you know how many millions of my people suffered through torturous conditions and died during the two world wars? I'm sure you do. Why then, do you use the Jews' suffering as an excuse to justify my people's suffering? Are we less important? Why yes, that's EXACTLY the attitude I'm fighting against here.

Are you honestly trying to say "you and all your people should fight and suffer and die for the Jews, because their lives matter more than yours?" What else should I take from your above comment? So, Jews matter, I don't? I would never ask the Jewish to lay down their lives for my people. We are all equal, all equally precious. Sacrificing one group of people for another is immoral.

My Grandfather fought in the Second World War. The thought of seeing this good man paraded about as a means of avoiding societal responsibility for his generation's mistreatment is appalling. He wants nothing more than to go quietly and peacefully. Fortunately, I have the insight to grant him this, for which I am very thankful.

If other people see this in a different way, that's fine- believe me I'm used to it- but please kindly think about what this all might mean for those who don't see things as you do. Please try to show a bit of sensitivity.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I've just researched it, and Mr. Harry Patch was conscripted. There you are. Whether he saw it in these terms or not, he was a slave. You'll forgive me, I'm sure, for refusing to celebrate his servitude.

 

[RJDiogenes]

I'm as anti-war as it's possible to be, but there is no getting around the fact that we must defend ourselves and our allies from those who are far less anti-war than we are.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I'm as anti-war as it's possible to be, but there is no getting around the fact that we must defend ourselves and our allies from those who are far less anti-war than we are.

I apologise to all if I got a little...carried away. I will reign myself in in future. I tend to get passionate about this subject

It is simply that one of my highest ideals is that all human life is equal. No one of us should be considered less important or worthy of life than another. Either people here are suggesting that my life is more important- by saying all these people suffered and died for me- or they are saying my life is less important by saying we should ignore young men's forced military service and the slavery of people like me is okay. Either way I can't help but find the whole thing unpalatable.

 

[RandyS]

Very sad.

Well, it has been almost ninety years, and most of those guys were in their 20's, 30's, and 40's then. All things considered, 111 is a pretty good run. Roughly thirty years longer than today's average lifespan.

But I agree, it's sad.

 

[RandyS]

It is simply that one of my highest ideals is that all human life is equal. No one of us should be considered less important or worthy of life than another.

I agree with you here, but the sad reality is that we live in a class system, and only a major conflict (in other words, war) is going to change that.

 

[SPOCKED]

I apologise to all if I got a little...carried away. I will reign myself in in future. I tend to get passionate about this subject

Are you kidding?? Your fascinating exchange with Braindeer was practically a model for good debate in Miscellaneous. Thank you both.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I apologise to all if I got a little...carried away. I will reign myself in in future. I tend to get passionate about this subject

Are you kidding?? Your fascinating exchange with Braindeer was practically a model for good debate in Miscellaneous. Thank you both.

Thank you. It means a lot to me to see I haven't trodden on any toes

And I extend my own thanks to Braindeer for so gracefully putting up with me!

 

[Thespeckledkiwi]

Very sad.

But I agree, it's sad.

To me, it is inevitable but the fact that we have not replaced these 'critics' of war, that truly understand how devastating war can be and how it should only be used as a last act, is sad. A whole other generation, the ones that fought in World War II are disappearing as well and we move further and further away from that, I feel we are forgetting who we are and the sacrifices we made.

Most people take things as if they are entitled too, not knowing the sacrifices they made before them.

 

[Thespeckledkiwi]

I've just researched it, and Mr. Harry Patch was conscripted. There you are. Whether he saw it in these terms or not, he was a slave. You'll forgive me, I'm sure, for refusing to celebrate his servitude.

The one thing that struck me was that he was not happy to go to war. His comrades and him tried to not kill when they had the option. That in itself is fascinating.

 

[RJDiogenes]

I'm as anti-war as it's possible to be, but there is no getting around the fact that we must defend ourselves and our allies from those who are far less anti-war than we are.

I apologise to all if I got a little...carried away. I will reign myself in in future. I tend to get passionate about this subject

It is simply that one of my highest ideals is that all human life is equal. No one of us should be considered less important or worthy of life than another. Either people here are suggesting that my life is more important- by saying all these people suffered and died for me- or they are saying my life is less important by saying we should ignore young men's forced military service and the slavery of people like me is okay. Either way I can't help but find the whole thing unpalatable.

As SPOCKED said, there is no need to apologize. Your passion and ideals are noble, and I share them. All Human life is indeed equal. However, gratitude is earned by actions. People who save lives by giving money or food or blood or by running into burning buildings or by providing disaster relief deserve congratulations and gratitude. And so do people who would rather be home living their lives but yet go off to fight an enemy whose intent is death or subjugation. No sane person likes war, but that should not diminish the sacrifices of those who have fought for us; the fact is, we do owe them everything we have.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I'm as anti-war as it's possible to be, but there is no getting around the fact that we must defend ourselves and our allies from those who are far less anti-war than we are.

I apologise to all if I got a little...carried away. I will reign myself in in future. I tend to get passionate about this subject

It is simply that one of my highest ideals is that all human life is equal. No one of us should be considered less important or worthy of life than another. Either people here are suggesting that my life is more important- by saying all these people suffered and died for me- or they are saying my life is less important by saying we should ignore young men's forced military service and the slavery of people like me is okay. Either way I can't help but find the whole thing unpalatable.

As SPOCKED said, there is no need to apologize. Your passion and ideals are noble, and I share them. All Human life is indeed equal. However, gratitude is earned by actions. People who save lives by giving money or food or blood or by running into burning buildings or by providing disaster relief deserve congratulations and gratitude. And so do people who would rather be home living their lives but yet go off to fight an enemy whose intent is death or subjugation. No sane person likes war, but that should not diminish the sacrifices of those who have fought for us; the fact is, we do owe them everything we have.

Your argument is convincing, and I do respect it, but sadly I cannot personally get over these people's mistreatment. It sours it in my eyes. That's just me, but believe me I do understand exactly why people show their gratitude in this way.

 

[RJDiogenes]

I agree. Going off to war is a terrible thing and it always angers me to think of the things that happen to soldiers-- Vietnam especially angers me, because of the circumstances and because it was going on when I was a kid (not much younger than the kids who fought). But that just makes it more important to me to express gratitude. Your opinion is understandable, though.

 

[Braindeer]

This is the nicest debate I have ever had online! I love TrekBBS! Group hug everyone!

DerangedNasat, thank you for an excellent discussion! You have made me think very hard about this subject and see things from a viewpoint I've never considered before. And I do agree with you in a lot of ways - it is shameful how young soldiers are treated. I feel the same way about recent sham "celebrations" for British soldiers fighting in Afghanistan - there was some sort of "Armed Forces Day" where we were all supposed to wave our flags and make people feel better about the fact that they are risking their lives for a reason which to many people is unclear. Actually, what those people need is a) a better solution than going in and fighting, or b) better equipment and resources to do their job if that is what must be done. Sadly the same mistakes are being made over again. That's the real tragedy of it all, and I think we 100% agree on that.

 

[Miss Chicken]

This is one of the most important events this year IMO, that the last British WWI survivor has passed away. I only believe a couple survive to this day, one American and one Australian. I don't think any Soviets have survived and who knows of the Eastern European bloc. Germany and France have no survivors.

The last Australian passed away not that long ago.

 

[Zulu Romeo]

This is one of the most important events this year IMO, that the last British WWI survivor has passed away. I only believe a couple survive to this day, one American and one Australian. I don't think any Soviets have survived and who knows of the Eastern European bloc. Germany and France have no survivors.

The last Australian passed away not that long ago.

According to this Wikipedia article, there is one Brit (the last WW1 seaman alive) living in Perth, WA, plus a Canadian and an American, both living in the USA. There are also two others whose status during that war are "unconfirmed" or "of that era."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_surviving_veterans_of_World_War_I

 

[Miss Chicken]

Thnat might explain it. The man who died recently was the last WW1 digger. A British seaman living in WA would qualify as a digger.

In 2002 I went to the funeral of Alec Campbell the last of all of the soldiers - on both sides - who fought at Gallipoli. Thousands of people libed the streets of Hobart to see Mr Campbell off and he was given a 21 gun salute which normally is only given to royalty and heads of state.