The Typhon Pact

[Christopher]

^Again, you're trying too hard to read a pattern into it. All analogies are inexact and limited in their applicability. The Typhon Pact/Warsaw Pact analogy is merely to the overall concept of "the other guys" forming an alliance to counter "our" guys. There's not meant to be any specific analogy on the level of individual members.

 

[Sci]

^Again, you're trying too hard to read a pattern into it. All analogies are inexact and limited in their applicability. The Typhon Pact/Warsaw Pact analogy is merely to the overall concept of "the other guys" forming an alliance to counter "our" guys. There's not meant to be any specific analogy on the level of individual members.

Though it does suggest the question of how power is going to be distributed in the Pact. How will the Pact be governed? Which Pact members will assume which roles? Will the Pact end up being a vehicle for one or two Pact members to dominate the others like the Warsaw Pact was for the Soviet Union or like NATO was for the U.S.? Will the Pact end up being almost its won separate entity with its own goals and agendas separate from the individual goals of its members like the U.N. is today? Will the Pact end up evolving into a genuine interstellar state whose members cooperate and interact as equals, like the Federation?

 

[BrotherBenny]

Christopher, I was thinking that due to the limited knowledge we have of the Tzenkethi, is it not possible that they do not have a single unified government or imperial empire of any kind, but a number of nation states which have formed the Coalition to present a united front to the outside galaxy in order not to appear weak?

This would make sense if you look at the behaviour of the Tzelnira, a Council made of the leaders of the nation states rather than a unified single world.

 

[Rush Limborg]

^Well..."The Adversary" implied some kind of worldwide government--which (according to rumor) was falling victim to a coup....

 

[rahullak]

And now after the formation of the Pact, the Tzenkethi have yet another layer to hide behind, the cowardly petQ!

 

[Sci]

^Well..."The Adversary" implied some kind of worldwide government--which (according to rumor) was falling victim to a coup....

Specifically, it established the existence of the Autarch of the Tzenkethi Coalition. "Autarch" being, apparently, another word for "absolute ruler or dictator," implying the existence of some sort of autocratic dictatorship or monarchy.

 

[rahullak]

I have a question: We know of Klingon - Kinshaya relations. What do we know about relations between the Klingons and the other members of the Typhon Pact?

 

[captcalhoun]

well, they hate the RSE. They've attempted (and failed) to conquer the Breen and prolly don't like em post DW. they've clashed with the Tholians in the Gonmog Sector (cf. Vanguard). dunno about the Gorn or the Tzenkethi.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I have a question: We know of Klingon - Kinshaya relations. What do we know about relations between the Klingons and the other members of the Typhon Pact?

They have some sort of dispute with the Gorn over territory ("Mere Mortals" established, if I remember correctly, eight star systems the Gorn thought were by rights theirs, but the Klingons had control over). There is no indication it is a violent dispute, though. In "Serpents Among the Ruins", the Klingons are sending fleets to patrol the Gorn border, but don't seem to think there'll be trouble. I don't think the Gorn and Klingons have truly fought; indeed, in "The Gorn Crisis" they seemed to get along quite well following the Black Crest defeat. Ambassador Zogazin's comments in "Mere Mortals" suggest the Gorn see the Klingons as a Federation puppet state, though.

As we all know, they hate the Romulan Star Empire due to the endless stream of honour disputes, blood debts and what it insists is the Romulan's cowardly betrayal. They've never actually been at war, as far as I can tell, at least not since the 22nd century, but each would love to see the other fall. Amusingly, the Klingons seem to have no problem with the Imperial Romulan State, so perhaps hatred for Romulans-the-species is being transformed into more direct hatred for the RSE.

They have diplomatic relations with the Tzenkethi, but I don't think there has been anything of note between them.

They're hostile to the Tholians, as "Vanguard" and several "SCE" stories have shown, but in the latter Worf managed to prevent a conflict starting, so there appear to be plenty of heads cool enough to put aside lingering grudges over the Taurus Reach stuff. Note: did anyone else catch the link between "Open Secrets" and those SCE stories?

As for the Breen, there was Emperor Mow'ga (is that right?) and his long-ago attempt to conquer them, which failed spectacularly, and of course the Dominion War, but other than that, I think they're too far apart to have had any real contact.

 

[rahullak]

^

Thank you.

And to ask more generally - what about Pact member relations with other AQ powers (Cardassia, Ferenginar etc.) ?

 

[Deranged Nasat]

^

Thank you.

And to ask more generally - what about Pact member relations with other AQ powers (Cardassia, Ferenginar etc.) ?

I'm not sure we have much information. Most of the Pact members were previously isolationist if not full-on xenophobic, so there's not too much of a history with other nations, as far as I can tell.

We know some things about Pact nations' relations with the Cardassians: Cardassia had minor conflicts with the Breen and Tzenkethi (the "Terok Nor" books established- or at least suggested- that there were border raids and jostling and sabre-rattling there, but not actual war, apparently). "The Lost Era" revealed the Cardassians bought weapons from the Breen, using the Orion Syndicate as middlemen, while DS9 established they have an embassy on Breen homeworld (or the planet the Breen SAY is their homeworld, depending on what we make of Weyoun's comments, I suppose ). "A Stitch in Time" mentioned an abortive attempt by some Romulan factions to create an alliance with Cardassia and put an end to their isolationist phase, but the majority in the government seemed not to support it, Tain's manipulations aside, and nothing materialized...The book also said the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order were essentially in a state of war. There's a Cardassian embassy on Romulus as well (I don't know if they have one on Tzenketh or Ab-Tzenketh, I don't recall anything about official diplomatic relations). As for Tholians, Gorn and Kinshaya, I don't believe there's been anything of note (Gorn are too far away, I guess, Kinshaya didn't talk to anyone and Tholians didn't either, although a Tholian ambassador visits DS9 (ambassador to Bajor?) so they might have a diplomatic presence.

As for Ferengi, they'll trade with anyone, more or less, so if any of the Pact nations desired it, I'm sure there'd be relations there. The novels suggest the Ferengi bought warp drive from the Breen, or a Breen (I don't remember if it was their government or independent traders) while DS9 established they trade with them.

 

[Christopher]

^And let's keep in mind that those descriptions represent their policies during the time period we know about. A society can undergo considerable change in its policies and values over time. A state that's isolationist in one generation can easily have been outgoing a generation earlier, or vice versa. Heck, the USA was generally isolationist for the first part of the 20th century, but then abandoned that decisively after 1941.

We should always remember that when talking about the behavior or attitudes of a state, we're talking about the policies of its current sitting government, not something that's woven into the genetic code of the entire species throughout all time. And governments always have opposition, and sooner or later the opposition generally ends up taking over. For all we know, some of these Typhon Pact signatories may have recently undergone changes in government. Maybe the reason they signed on is because the new leaders wanted to reject the isolationist or xenophobic policies of their predecessors. Or maybe the current leaders' decision to join the Pact could spark a backlash from the opposition and endanger the survival of the sitting regime. The one constant in politics is change. (Well, and self-interest. And corruption. And... well, anyway.)

 

[EmperorKalan]

As we all know, they hate the Romulan Star Empire due to the endless stream of honour disputes, blood debts and what it insists is the Romulan's cowardly betrayal. They've never actually been at war, as far as I can tell, at least not since the 22nd century, but each would love to see the other fall. Amusingly, the Klingons seem to have no problem with the Imperial Romulan State, so perhaps hatred for Romulans-the-species is being transformed into more direct hatred for the RSE.

Don't forget that underneath the overt hostility there is a long history of deal-making and trading -- sometimes overt (selling the Romulans ships in the TOS era), more often under the table (novels The Final Refelction, The Art of the Impossible, episodes "Sins of the Father", "Birthright" parts I and II). So relations between the Empires is a bit more nuanced than obvious sneering and snarling they do at each other. The Romulan split stands to make things even more... interesting.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

As we all know, they hate the Romulan Star Empire due to the endless stream of honour disputes, blood debts and what it insists is the Romulan's cowardly betrayal. They've never actually been at war, as far as I can tell, at least not since the 22nd century, but each would love to see the other fall. Amusingly, the Klingons seem to have no problem with the Imperial Romulan State, so perhaps hatred for Romulans-the-species is being transformed into more direct hatred for the RSE.

Don't forget that underneath the overt hostility there is a long history of deal-making and trading -- sometimes overt (selling the Romulans ships in the TOS era), more often under the table (novels The Final Refelction, The Art of the Impossible, episodes "Sins of the Father", "Birthright" parts I and II). So relations between the Empires is a bit more nuanced than obvious sneering and snarling they do at each other. The Romulan split stands to make things even more... interesting.

Indeed. I was of course being quite simple and sweeping in my evaluation, so of course there are many levels of complexity I left out. Thanks for enhancing my original answer!

 

[rahullak]

Or maybe the current leaders' decision to join the Pact could spark a backlash from the opposition and endanger the survival of the sitting regime.

With a little instigatory help from Starfleet Intelligence or Section 31.

 

[rahullak]

Boy am I asking a lot of questions....

What would be the unique cultural and traditional belief systems or way of thinking/basis of thinking that Pact members have? (apart from RSE, which we all know)

For eg. we know generally humans are "always seeking peaceful co-existence, with minimal conflict and explore and seek to improve themselves", the Klingon's base their existence on a "culture of battles and conquest", Ferengi on a culture of "business, profit and enterprise", Cardassians...well...I don't quite know...victory at all costs? Of course there are a lot of individual or situational exceptions to the "rule", but we can understand these exceptions better once we understand the "rules" themselves. (eg. Nog holding his Starfleet ideals over Ferengi ones most times, Romulans allying with UFP, Klingons in the Dominion war, Klingons allying with the UFP so they can focus on their battles on other fronts etc.)

We can also understand relations between peoples and how this evolves once we understand these "rules" (in general, Klingons detest the Ferengi cowardice, Ferengi detest or cannot understand why the UFP doesn't run on profit-making enterprise, Romulans detest everyone because of their inherent belief in their superiority over the galaxy etc.)

I expect this would be gradually answered in the coming books, but do we already know something?

 

[Christopher]

Or maybe the current leaders' decision to join the Pact could spark a backlash from the opposition and endanger the survival of the sitting regime.

With a little instigatory help from Starfleet Intelligence or Section 31.

I doubt Starfleet Intelligence would do something that obnoxiously imperialistic, because it violates the Prime Directive. Also because it's just stupid. History shows that when America has attempted to bring about "regime change" coercively, it's just created bad blood and made things worse in the long run. I can certainly see Section 31 doing such a thing, because they're totally twisted.

Besides, why would Starfleet want to do such a thing? A government that's willing to participate in the Typhon Pact is a government that's willing to give interstellar cooperation and diplomacy a try. The opposition party in such a case would be the xenophobes or the militants, and those aren't the kind of people Starfleet would want in power. That would be as stupid and self-defeating as the CIA overthrowing populist reformers and backing brutal dictators because they believed it served America's Cold-War interests. It was policies like those which led to the rise of Fidel Castro, al-Qaeda, the current Iranian regime, and the like, ultimately working against America's interests.

That's why the Prime Directive is a good idea. Because it's arrogant and foolish to think you have the right to make other cultures' political decisions for them, and it generally turns out badly.

What would be the unique cultural and traditional belief systems or way of thinking/basis of thinking that Pact members have? (apart from RSE, which we all know)

For eg. we know generally humans are "always seeking peaceful co-existence, with minimal conflict and explore and seek to improve themselves", the Klingon's base their existence on a "culture of battles and conquest", Ferengi on a culture of "business, profit and enterprise", Cardassians...well...I don't quite know...victory at all costs? Of course there are a lot of individual or situational exceptions to the "rule", but we can understand these exceptions better once we understand the "rules" themselves. (eg. Nog holding his Starfleet ideals over Ferengi ones most times, Romulans allying with UFP, Klingons in the Dominion war, Klingons allying with the UFP so they can focus on their battles on other fronts etc.)

We can also understand relations between peoples and how this evolves once we understand these "rules" (in general, Klingons detest the Ferengi cowardice, Ferengi detest or cannot understand why the UFP doesn't run on profit-making enterprise, Romulans detest everyone because of their inherent belief in their superiority over the galaxy etc.)

I don't think such generalizations are useful. Again, those "rules" just represent the attitudes of the currently dominant cultural or political group. Wait a century, or even a generation, and they could be completely changed. Sometimes it doesn't even take that long. Compare how Bush's America looked to the rest of the world to how Obama's America looks to the rest of the world and it's like we've become the complete opposite of what we were.

On TV, it's useful to simplify alien cultures as storytelling shorthand, but I'd hope that the novelists won't reduce the Typhon Pact members to broad stereotypes.

 

[Rush Limborg]

I don't think such generalizations are useful. Again, those "rules" just represent the attitudes of the currently dominant cultural or political group. Wait a century, or even a generation, and they could be completely changed. Sometimes it doesn't even take that long. Compare how Bush's America looked to the rest of the world to how Obama's America looks to the rest of the world and it's like we've become the complete opposite of what we were.

And of course, Chris, as the events a nation lives through pass into history, one's perspective of them tends to change. As Sisko explained to Jake, it's a lot easier to judge how "right" or "wrong" a particular major decision is when it's seen through the perspective of history...than to judge it's morality (or lack therof) as it happens....

How the world looks at our actions as we conduct them now...won't neccessarily reflect how historians look at said actions 100 years from now.

 

[rahullak]

^@Christopher
The "instigatory" comment was just me proceeding from one assumption that certain sections of SI might view the Pact as a direct and imminent threat to the Federation. Of course it might not be the case that the Pact is a threat, in which case it would be foolish to cause incidents that might result in more conflict.


As for the belief systems of Typhon Pact members, no one is suggesting that they be reduced to stereotypes or generalizations. It simply helps to understand a character's actions by knowing all of the motivations behind their actions (why Ferengi do what they do, why hewmans do what they do, why Klingons behave that way), apart from the necessities of the situations that the characters find themselves in and their individual wants and needs. Of course it varies from individual to individual even within the same culture, but that's what gives us insights into different interpretations of the same culture. Personally, I find it more interesting when a character is forced to go against his/her beliefs or revise his/her beliefs in a unique situation. But to understand the depth of the character's conflict, it is necessary to know what value systems s/he believes in and also what the other characters in the situation believe in.

I simply want to know what systems or "code of conduct" that different TP members follow, what their motivations are as individuals (not just as political entities), what they value (simple examples: is it profit and business, is it dominance, is it freedom, or is it something else entirely new, some complex combination of values?) currently.

Can these belief systems change over time? Of course they can. Change can't be disputed.

Just as we have depictions of the physical attributes of a race, is it too much to ask for depictions of the current cultural complex attitudes of a race (that no doubt has individual differences that vary over time, just as physical attributes have individual differences that vary over time)? Naturally, such depictions would be interwoven into the story or spread across multiple stories so as to make it more interesting and evolutionary (unlike physical descriptions that tend to be provided all at once...Tzenkethi seem to be an exception).

 

[Sci]

I don't think such generalizations are useful. Again, those "rules" just represent the attitudes of the currently dominant cultural or political group. Wait a century, or even a generation, and they could be completely changed. Sometimes it doesn't even take that long. Compare how Bush's America looked to the rest of the world to how Obama's America looks to the rest of the world and it's like we've become the complete opposite of what we were.

And of course, Chris, as the events a nation lives through pass into history, one's perspective of them tends to change. As Sisko explained to Jake, it's a lot easier to judge how "right" or "wrong" a particular major decision is when it's seen through the perspective of history...than to judge it's morality (or lack therof) as it happens....

How the world looks at our actions as we conduct them now...won't neccessarily reflect how historians look at said actions 100 years from now.

True.

But, there again, it's also important to remember that the view that might become dominant after an event takes place is not always an accurate view; how we interpret history often is determined by which point of view serves the generally-accepted ideologies of the present.

But, also, it's important to bear in mind that something that seemed right to one faction can have seemed wrong to another faction, and then can later turn out quite definitively to have been wrong -- proving the opposition faction to have had better judgment all along, and obligating the previously dominant faction to admit that its judgment was inaccurate (and sometimes even based on delusional value systems).

Like someone said: History is the process by which a culture interprets the meaning of its past.