STAR TREK:COUNTDOWN...Should It Be Canonized as Background for Movie?

[cooleddie74]

Re: STAR TREK:COUNTDOWN...Should It Be Canonized as Background for Mov

YES! *hey cooleddie, Why didn't you put a poll up?*

Wanted this to be more of a discussion thread than a poll to be frank. Didn't feel like a poll sorta day when I posted this.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Re: STAR TREK:COUNTDOWN...Should It Be Canonized as Background for Mov

"Canon Jihadist."

Great. ANOTHER subspecies of poster hellbent on destroying all that is sacred and just in the TREK universe.

Is that more or less destructive than the standard Canonites and is it above or below the canonwanker on the annoyance scale?

Depends. Ill consult the sacred Okuda texts and get back to you on that.

NO! Ask Robau instead, you know he is the true all knowing source of trek facts.

 

[johnsonalmighty]

Re: STAR TREK:COUNTDOWN...Should It Be Canonized as Background for Mov

Is that more or less destructive than the standard Canonites and is it above or below the canonwanker on the annoyance scale?

Depends. Ill consult the sacred Okuda texts and get back to you on that.

NO! Ask Robau instead, you know he is the true all knowing source of trek facts.

Quick everyone! To the Robau Thread!!!!!!!!

 

[Deks]

Re: STAR TREK:COUNTDOWN...Should It Be Canonized as Background for Mov

OT:
No.

It makes no sense either because if the Narada was indeed equipped with Borg technology in any capacity ... it wouldn't have succumbed to the 23rd century weapons as it did in the movie.

When did the Narada 'succumb to 23rd century weapons'?

Well ... not weapons specifically ... more to the point a tiny ship ramming it and of course when it was falling into the black hole and Enterprise was blasting at it's tentacles with it's weapons and did plenty of damage ... but of course the black hole would have likely affected the ship's SIF fields and structural integrity to begin with.

Also ... previous Trek canon indicates that Borg technology often can result in enhancements of existing technology and can in fact provide far better weapons and shields.
None of which were present on the Narada, nor was it mentioned Borg tech was used, and it took several missiles to deal damaging blow to the Enterprise.
Another volley would have destroyed them of course ... but if they were so powerful, the Enterprise would have been destroyed in a first volley before Nero realized it was the Enterprise.

A Romulan mining ship from the late 24th century doesn't need Borg tech to destroy fleets of ships from well over a century ago.
Remember how the Defiant in Enterprise episode of the mirror universe was untouchable with it's shields up?
Same analogy ... and the Narada would likely have powerful shields to begin with.
It's quite typical of Romulan behavior to expect them to arm their mining ship and shield them adequately.

 

[JohanKoch]

Re: STAR TREK:COUNTDOWN...Should It Be Canonized as Background for Mov

OMG, is it my imagination, or do we have a "Canon Jihadist" among our ranks?

What in god's name are you talking about?

I expressed my opinion that the plot to Countdown sounded awful, and like really, really bad fanfic. Just because that offends your delicate sensibilities does not make me a "Canon Jihadist". Wow, fanboys indeed...

 

[Franklin]

Re: STAR TREK:COUNTDOWN...Should It Be Canonized as Background for Mov

No, no, a thousand times no. The story was shallow and was one step away from being fanboyish (apparently comic characters do cameos). It also looked and read as if it had been hurried together.
The story also makes it even harder to understand what would make Nero snap and go after Spock. It's not like Spock was responsible for the stalling around, and Nero knows that. Spock was frantically trying to help, and even engaged Federation help.
As the comic is written, Nero may have a beef with Vulcan, he certainly has one with the remaining Romulans (who didn't believe they were in danger to begin with). But Spock?
In the movie, the vagueness of what actually happened makes his hate of Spock make more sense than it does in the comic.

It was a neat idea to sell comic books by taking advantage of anticipation of the movie. But that's all it was. A money grab.

Nero's motive was a weak point in the movie. He's dead, fine, we can forget that and move on. But something that is weak shouldn't be dwelled upon. Concentrate on the strengths for future movies.

That's kind of my point. In the movie, it seems Nero is pissed at Spock for acting too slowly to save Romulus. Whether that's Spock's fault or not is ambiguous in the movie, as Spock himself seemed surprised and horrified that the Hobus star destroyed Romulus when it did, and he seemed to feel a bit of guilt for not being quicker to act. I think he understood Nero's anger. Maybe Spock even felt he failed him (and Romulus). That was a sufficient conflict for the type of movie it was. Nero was as strong and motivated as a villain had to be for the story.

But there's too much backstory for that in the comics. Too much blame to pass on for not acting in time to save Romulus. And of all the places where Nero can place blame in the comics (the Romulan Senate, the Vulcan government), Spock is the least likely one to capture his wrath. Spock was the only one doing anything. And, he was doing it in spite of the others. That's why I think the comic merely makes Nero's anger at Spock seem contrived, convoluted, and convenient.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

Re: STAR TREK:COUNTDOWN...Should It Be Canonized as Background for Mov

OMG, is it my imagination, or do we have a "Canon Jihadist" among our ranks?

What in god's name are you talking about?

I expressed my opinion that the plot to Countdown sounded awful, and like really, really bad fanfic. Just because that offends your delicate sensibilities does not make me a "Canon Jihadist". Wow, fanboys indeed...

Yeah, I thought that was pretty strong, myself. If we're discussing the (oxy)moronic concepts of informal or personal canon, it seems quite all right to take into account one's opinion of the quality of the story that is up for inclusion. Why canonize crap? Hardly makes one a Jihadist. Maybe a canon Sardaukar--at most, a Canon Bene Tleilaxu.

 

[Silversmok3]

Re: STAR TREK:COUNTDOWN...Should It Be Canonized as Background for Mov

I would say nyet to canonizing Countdown.

I find it entertaining in its own fashon, but as explaination for what happens between Nemesis and NuTrek its far too trite.

One,according to countdown Nero assasinating the remnants of the Romulan government is NOT considered treason.

Without authorization or rank Nero, a miner by trade, just flies into the Romulan equivalent of Area 51 and gets his ship tricked out.
This is as plausible as me flying a news chopper into Fort Cambell, Ky and getting it turned into a gunship.

And what is the Narada outfitted with? A bunch of reverse-engineered Borg technology that the Romulans have been keeping in the closet.
Ahem, wouldnt there be better candidates for a rogue revenge attack against the Federation than a civil mining ship? Id imagine a Valdore class ship outfitted with the same tech would be faaaar deadlier than Nero's hulk.Not as intimidating, perhaps, but far harder to destroy....and it would be crewed by trained and enlisted Romulan military, instead of some pissed off miners.

As a fun comic to read with your milk and cookies, Countdown is good. But it is hardly canon material. You want to turn a book into canon? Start with the Destiny series.

 

[Mach5]

Re: STAR TREK:COUNTDOWN...Should It Be Canonized as Background for Mov

OMG, is it my imagination, or do we have a "Canon Jihadist" among our ranks?

What in god's name are you talking about?

I expressed my opinion that the plot to Countdown sounded awful, and like really, really bad fanfic. Just because that offends your delicate sensibilities does not make me a "Canon Jihadist". Wow, fanboys indeed...

Well you did speak of canon as if it was something sacred... While in truth we all know that the soul purpose of canon is to be violated.

I mean, I instinctively begin to chuckle every time someone mentions the "C-word."

I'm sorry dude, if I offended your fragile little ego. I won't do it again, I promise.

 

[JohanKoch]

Re: STAR TREK:COUNTDOWN...Should It Be Canonized as Background for Mov

Well you did speak of canon as if it was something sacred... While in truth we all know that the soul purpose of canon is to be violated.

I mean, I instinctively begin to chuckle every time someone mentions the "C-word."

I'm sorry dude, if I offended your fragile little ego. I won't do it again, I promise.

Do me a favour, friend. Check the subject of this thread. Go ahead, I''ll wait.

See? The entire reason for this thread in the first place is to discuss if the comic should be canon or not. The dreaded "c-word", as you put it, is right there in the thread title! You can read, I presume, why did you even come here, except to threadcrap?


(Edit to add some content to this post, since I'm sure people are sick of bickering...):

To get back to the original question, this reminds of the debate around the Voyager novel Pathways. Since it was written by Jeri Taylor, she argued that it was canon, and elevated above the other novels. I thought that was a bit silly, and introducing unneeded complexity to the situation. For example, if Jeri Taylor's books can be "uplifted", why not other people's (Shatner, etc.)?

But it does show that there is precedent for canonizing other media, or at least attempting to...

 

[Mach5]

Re: STAR TREK:COUNTDOWN...Should It Be Canonized as Background for Mov

Do me a favour, friend. Check the subject of this thread. Go ahead, I''ll wait.

See? The entire reason for this thread in the first place is to discuss if the comic should be canon or not. The dreaded "c-word", as you put it, is right there in the thread title! You can read, I presume, why did you even come here, except to threadcrap?

Wow, you really are a sensitive one! I'm sorry, geez...

But the way you advocated your "crap should not be allowed into canon" idea actually made me wonder how much of Star Trek have you actually seen.

Because, you see, there's so much laughable crap in canon already, that "Countdown" wouldn't even make it into bottom half.

 

[Jeri]

Re: STAR TREK:COUNTDOWN...Should It Be Canonized as Background for Mov

Jeri Taylor's books are wonderful; but as far as I know, they in fact did not reach canon status.

 

[Mach5]

Re: STAR TREK:COUNTDOWN...Should It Be Canonized as Background for Mov

Jeri Taylor's books are wonderful; but as far as I know, they in fact did not reach canon status.

IIRC, they were kinda considered canon while Taylor was on VOY, but only until she left.

 

[Jeri]

Re: STAR TREK:COUNTDOWN...Should It Be Canonized as Background for Mov

Yeah, kinda canon is not canon. Nobody's really been able to bridge that gulf with a book; people just don't want that slippery slope, and I don't blame them.

 

[SonicRanger]

Re: STAR TREK:COUNTDOWN...Should It Be Canonized as Background for Mov

Jeri Taylor's books are wonderful; but as far as I know, they in fact did not reach canon status.

IIRC, they were kinda considered canon while Taylor was on VOY, but only until she left.

The only person who said they were canon was Jeri Taylor as far as I can tell.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: STAR TREK:COUNTDOWN...Should It Be Canonized as Background for Mov

To get back to the original question, this reminds of the debate around the Voyager novel Pathways. Since it was written by Jeri Taylor, she argued that it was canon, and elevated above the other novels. I thought that was a bit silly, and introducing unneeded complexity to the situation. For example, if Jeri Taylor's books can be "uplifted", why not other people's (Shatner, etc.)?.

That's not quite how it happened. Jeri Taylor was working as a VOY showrunner when she wrote "Mosaic", and she used her own notes on Janeway, as a creator of that character, to write "Mosaic". Then she told her writing staff on VOY that if they ever needed background for Janeway it was right there for their convenience, in her book.

Then she was leaving the show about the time she was writing "Pathways". Again, she offered up the backgrounds of all the other characters to the writing staff, as extensions of the material in the VOY Writers' Bible - and they immediately chose to ignore much of the information because JT as no longer with the show. In fact, they also begain to ignore "Mosaic" from that point on.

When Richard Arnold was reinforcing what was "canon", he made a point of reminding us that even Gene Roddenberry's TMP novelization wasn't canonical, only those bits that were also shown on the big screen. If GR's licensed tie-in isn't counted, then neither is Shatner's. Or Taylor's.

"Canon" simply means: "what has screened as live action Trek" really happened. Everything else may have happened, unless it's later overwritten by something canonical. Putting something in a ST book or comic doesn't make it canon. The writers are always free to use or ignore material from the licensed tie-ins.

 

[Jeri]

Re: STAR TREK:COUNTDOWN...Should It Be Canonized as Background for Mov

"It DID happen! I SAW it happen!" - Nero

 

[Mach5]

Re: STAR TREK:COUNTDOWN...Should It Be Canonized as Background for Mov

"It DID happen! I SAW it happen!" - Nero

Sure, but not necessarily the way it was depicted in "Countdown."

Personally, I'd like to see a novel that deals with the events Spock described to Kirk via mind meld. And I nominate David Mack to do it!

 

[JohanKoch]

Re: STAR TREK:COUNTDOWN...Should It Be Canonized as Background for Mov

Because, you see, there's so much laughable crap in canon already, that "Countdown" wouldn't even make it into bottom half.

Well, I can't argue with you on that point...

 

[M'Sharak]

Re: STAR TREK:COUNTDOWN...Should It Be Canonized as Background for Mov

OMG, is it my imagination, or do we have a "Canon Jihadist" among our ranks?

What in god's name are you talking about?

I expressed my opinion that the plot to Countdown sounded awful, and like really, really bad fanfic. Just because that offends your delicate sensibilities does not make me a "Canon Jihadist". Wow, fanboys indeed...

Well you did speak of canon as if it was something sacred... While in truth we all know that the soul purpose of canon is to be violated.

I mean, I instinctively begin to chuckle every time someone mentions the "C-word."

I'm sorry dude, if I offended your fragile little ego. I won't do it again, I promise.

Come on, Mach5. The "canon jihadist" crack was off-base -- you know it, and JohanKoch did no more than call you on it -- and the "offended your fragile little ego" and "Wow, you really are a sensitive one!" digs sound more like trolling than I really want to see here.

Knock it off, OK?