Two more LCARS schematics

[Saquist]

The Movie said "Warp Core" and "Intermix"

No intermix chamber is mentioned re the Phoenix. Though even if it was, this alone doesn't imply antimatter.

Fusion doesn't need and intermix chamber

Neither does antimatter.

According to our understanding of the intermix chamber. They've never been referenced to anything but an antimatter matter reaction. According to Memory alpha it regulates preasure of plasma. The article further says that the intermix chamber flows inside the chamber. (thus the terms intermix). The implication is of term and the maual is a mediator for matter and anti-matter.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

According to our understanding of the intermix chamber.

What understanding? Andy Probert himself said the intermix chamber was mainly envisioned as a glorified power transfer conduit. If there's something more than that to understand about it, we DON'T, because nothing more than that was ever established.

They've never been referenced to anything but an antimatter matter reaction.

I again refer you to that scene in TMP you apparently keep forgetting. Just before using the impulse engine for the first time, the dialog goes:

Scotty: "Intermix set, bridge. Impulse power at your discretion."
Kirk: "Impulse power, Mister Sulu. Ahead warp point five."

Now unless you think impulse engines are powered by antimatter (they're not, by the way) the only explanation is that the intermix chamber is either channeling power from the main reactor to the impulse engines, OR, the impulse engines are channeling power from their fusion reactors into the intermix chamber. The latter seems more likely considering it was "antimatter imbalance" that created the wormhole 2 hours later, so the matter/antimatter reactor was likely on standby at this time.

Also, the Enterprise-D--like most if not all of the ships in the 24th century--does not have an intermix chamber, it has a warp core. The two are very distinct concepts and are mutually exclusive, especially since the Enterprise as of TMP does not appear to be equipped with a warp core anyway.

According to Memory alpha it regulates preasure of plasma.

Fusion reactors generate plasma. So do nuclear-thermal (fission core) rockets.

 

[Bill Morris]

Regarding the intermix chamber and warp core, here are the quotes from the movie:

[Montana settlement]
LAFORGE: I've tried to reconstruct the intermix chamber from what I remember at school. Tell me if I got it right.
COCHRANE: School? You learned about this in school?
LAFORGE: Oh yeah. 'Basic Warp Design' is a required course at the Academy. The first chapter is called 'Zefram Cochrane'.
COCHRANE: Well, it looks like you got it right.

[Phoenix cockpit]
TROI (OC): Seven...
COCHRANE: Let's rock 'n' roll!
TROI (OC): Six...
('Magic Carpet Ride' booms out of the speakers as the Titan V blasts off)
RIKER: Can you turn that down a little?
LAFORGE: Hey! We've got a red light on the second intake valve.
COCHRANE: Ignore it. We'll be fine. ...Prepare for first stage shutdown and separation on my mark. Three, two, one, mark.
RIKER: Okay, let's bring the warp core on-line.
COCHRANE: Oh, wow.
(Cochrane has spotted the Earth below)
LAFORGE: You ain't seen nothing yet.

Two scenes later:

[Phoenix cockpit]
LAFORGE: Plasma injectors are on-line. Everything's looking good. I think we're ready.

Could it be that the nuclear mentioned in the handout was for the retro rocket and the warp system was just as the dialog implied?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

It could be, but the dialog doesn't imply anything about an antimatter drive system for the warp core. Remember, most of the technical cues here are coming from the Enterprise crew; if "warp core" is even a term Zephram and Lilly would have used (instead of some kind of Airforce-esque pithy acronym) there's still no indication that the thing was designed using antimatter or dilithium. In fact, they actually scrounged most of the materials for the repair job from stuff Cochrane had lying around at the missile complex, and I highly doubt he would have had an antimatter containment pod and a chunk of dilithium crystal on hand.

 

[Bill Morris]

For a first warp flight, I doubt dilithium would be necessary. It was a very short sprint at warp. Remember, the first Wright Flyer flight at Kitty Hawk was shorter than the wingspan of a 747.

Another point about fusion rockets: Franklin Chang-Diaz. director of the Advanced Space Propulsion Laboratory, is an astronaut who has flown into space on seven missions, more than any other NASA astronaut. His current pet idea is the Variable Specific Impulse Magnetoplasma Rocket (VASIMR), which would use hydrogen as propellent, not as chemical fuel, by supeheating it to plasma with electricity. If you had enough electricity for that, a rocket could reach Mars in 39 days instead of 100. But he mentions nuclear power (fusion) as the source of that electricity. However, the only really viable microfusion generator currently under development with a good chance of working is Dr. Robert Bussard's polywell device, which actually has a design bonus that it can be configured as a fusion rocket that directly expels plasma, eliminating the need for the VASIMIR and closely resembling any fictional fusion rocket Cochrane's Phoenix might have.

To be fair, VASIMIR could work for very fast shuttling between Earth orbit and Lunar orbit if powered by a giant mylar balloon silvered on one side of the interior to focus sunlight to the center to generate a huge amount of electricity. But that's not what he is proposing at the moment, anyway.

But the point is that a polywell-based, plasma-spewing fusion retro rocket could be a reasonable explanation for how Cochrane got the Phoenix safely back to Montana, not that it's impossible with a chemical rocket, as the Russians have demonstrated for decades.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

If it's using a polywell fusion reactor, that would suffice both for the ship's main engine AND for the drive plasma. After all, the warp nacelles only require plasma to operate at warp speeds, and the Phoenix just barely surpassed warp one.

I severely doubt the entire ship actually returned to Montana. I rather expect that Cochrane left the drive section in orbit and parachuted down in his capsule using a simple solid rocket booster package as a retro thruster. His plan, evidently, was to sell the Phoenix to the highest bidder, who would then commission a space shuttle or similar craft to recover the prototype and its design schematics. The arrival of a Vulcan ship probably changed all that.

 

[Bill Morris]

If it's using a polywell fusion reactor, that would suffice both for the ship's main engine AND for the drive plasma. After all, the warp nacelles only require plasma to operate at warp speeds, and the Phoenix just barely surpassed warp one.

I severely doubt the entire ship actually returned to Montana. I rather expect that Cochrane left the drive section in orbit and parachuted down in his capsule using a simple solid rocket booster package as a retro thruster. His plan, evidently, was to sell the Phoenix to the highest bidder, who would then commission a space shuttle or similar craft to recover the prototype and its design schematics. The arrival of a Vulcan ship probably changed all that.

Those are both tempting ideas. I could add a label "descent module" and show a package of drogue parachutes and a retro rocket behind the cockpit, but then if it is retro, not glider, going down, then the fusion generator has to stay with it. I'd better toy with these things on paper.

I don't suppose the Enterprise beamed all of them away and back down to Montana. . . .

The Phoenix cockpit did have an MSD, which is not much help and raises questions about the Bussard collectors and warp-field geometry:

 

[Saquist]

What understanding? Andy Probert himself said the intermix chamber was mainly envisioned as a glorified power transfer conduit.

I understand that. But that is but one detail in the information we have.
It confroms with our knowledge that the device has something to do with plasma preasure. Yet it is not the only relatable term.

If there's something more than that to understand about it, we DON'T, because nothing more than that was ever established.

On the precise term "intermix" you are correct.
The related terms are "Intermix Ratio", "Intermix Chamber", "Intermix Forumla"


It is important to compare while you seem to believe in the precise seperation of Intermix and Intermix Chamber, Memory Alpha assumes otherwise. (just on the authority of course). Look at the whole use of terms.

I again refer you to that scene in TMP you apparently keep forgetting. Just before using the impulse engine for the first time, the dialog goes:

Scotty: "Intermix set, bridge. Impulse power at your discretion."
Kirk: "Impulse power, Mister Sulu. Ahead warp point five."

Now unless you think impulse engines are powered by antimatter (they're not, by the way) the only explanation is that the intermix chamber is either channeling power from the main reactor to the impulse engines, OR, the impulse engines are channeling power from their fusion reactors into the intermix chamber. The latter seems more likely considering it was "antimatter imbalance" that created the wormhole 2 hours later, so the matter/antimatter reactor was likely on standby at this time.

I assure you I'm not forgeting. I am taking all the information into consideration. This one example of the Constitution Class refit Design is suspect. This is the one system that combines impulse and warp power systems through one power unit.

All other references to intermix are warp drive systems.
The Phoenix, The NX-01, Arctus Baran's ship, The Enterprise D (Galaxy Class), and Defiant. All these vessels have warp drive. All vessels these references are to faster than light systems.
Your quote is ambigously offered to warp drive yet we know that the intermix ratio for the system did not allow for FTL. There is a different intermix ratio for different speeds. We are dealing with a ship with combined power systems and it's the only reference to impulse/intermix relationship.

Perhaps Scotty is using the antimatter reaction to power the impulse engines. We know the plasma flows up from the bottom of the ship to the nacelles. The question is how does the power flow from the junction in engineering to through the impulse intermix? I say it flows into the impulse engines. If the impulse deflection crystal does what people on this forum believe it does then it directs plasma into the impulse systems AND WHY not. We know that antimatter reactions are far more powerful than fusion reactions if all the power maybe harnest. All the impulse engines need is plasma the same is true of warp drive so why not use the most efficient form of energy production. This would make the Enterprise suitable for longer journies if they didn't wast hydrogen on the Fusioni Reactor.

Also, the Enterprise-D--like most if not all of the ships in the 24th century--does not have an intermix chamber, it has a warp core. The two are very distinct concepts and are mutually exclusive, especially since the Enterprise as of TMP does not appear to be equipped with a warp core anyway.

I think what it is...is that in the 24th century the core has been combined with the intermix chamber. Like you said the matter antimatter reaction doesn't need an intermix chamber just to react but they may need them to control plasma flow and we know. Anyway we know there is an intermix ratio, forumla or chamber on the vessels mentioned above.
We know that the intermix has everything to do with plasma flow, fuel control for anti matter and matter reactions.

Fusion reactors generate plasma. So do nuclear-thermal (fission core) rockets.

I don't doubt it.

Regarding the intermix chamber and warp core, here are the quotes from the movie:

[Montana settlement]
LAFORGE: I've tried to reconstruct the intermix chamber from what I remember at school. Tell me if I got it right.
COCHRANE: School? You learned about this in school?
LAFORGE: Oh yeah. 'Basic Warp Design' is a required course at the Academy. The first chapter is called 'Zefram Cochrane'.
COCHRANE: Well, it looks like you got it right.

[Phoenix cockpit]
TROI (OC): Seven...
COCHRANE: Let's rock 'n' roll!
TROI (OC): Six...
('Magic Carpet Ride' booms out of the speakers as the Titan V blasts off)
RIKER: Can you turn that down a little?
LAFORGE: Hey! We've got a red light on the second intake valve.
COCHRANE: Ignore it. We'll be fine. ...Prepare for first stage shutdown and separation on my mark. Three, two, one, mark.
RIKER: Okay, let's bring the warp core on-line.
COCHRANE: Oh, wow.
(Cochrane has spotted the Earth below)
LAFORGE: You ain't seen nothing yet.

Two scenes later:

[Phoenix cockpit]
LAFORGE: Plasma injectors are on-line. Everything's looking good. I think we're ready.

Could it be that the nuclear mentioned in the handout was for the retro rocket and the warp system was just as the dialog implied?

TITAN's didn't have a nuclear Rocket system. Remember this is based on Earth History. That Nuclear Rocket system never made it into production.
TITAN's used traditional Chemical Rocket Combustion Chambers.

It could be, but the dialog doesn't imply anything about an antimatter drive system for the warp core. Remember, most of the technical cues here are coming from the Enterprise crew; if "warp core" is even a term Zephram and Lilly would have used (instead of some kind of Airforce-esque pithy acronym) there's still no indication that the thing was designed using antimatter or dilithium. In fact, they actually scrounged most of the materials for the repair job from stuff Cochrane had lying around at the missile complex, and I highly doubt he would have had an antimatter containment pod and a chunk of dilithium crystal on hand.

You're wrong. The switch that is flipped is clearly marked "Warp Core."
Ultimately the entire scenario is suspect. This was no simple Rocket. I propose that the very mention of a warp core and intermix chamber is a direct relationship with antimatter/matter reactions. Even if it was just Fusion system I am incredulous of the possibilities of anything short of a large scale organization with resources and abundant materials putting together a Rocket Test Vehicle combination out the first try.

 

[Bill Morris]

I know Titan missiles don't have nuclear rockets. I was just trying to be open-minded to the claim that Cochrane's module might, even though it's easier to believe that the main thruster of that module is a conventional rocket using LH2 and LOX.

 

[SonicRanger]

TITAN's didn't have a nuclear Rocket system. Remember this is based on Earth History. That Nuclear Rocket system never made it into production.
TITAN's used traditional Chemical Rocket Combustion Chambers.

Earth history? First Contact takes place in 2063, and the Titan V (which doesn't exist [yet]) was probably a weapon of choice for the war fought a few years before that. So unless you have special insight into missiles that won't be built until the late 2050s, I don't see how you can make this claim.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

but then if it is retro, not glider, going down, then the fusion generator has to stay with it.

Why? The fusion generator could simply stay in orbit with the rest of the drive section.

I don't suppose the Enterprise beamed all of them away and back down to Montana. . . .

Probably not. Cochrane wouldn't have flown that ship without a way of getting back down, no matter how drunk he was when he took the cred... er... when he helped Lilly design it.

The Phoenix cockpit did have an MSD, which is not much help and raises questions about the Bussard collectors and warp-field geometry:

Doesn't raise any questions for me. Just establishes what I've basically always assumed, that those red caps on the front of the nacelles are not bussard collectors.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

On the precise term "intermix" you are correct.
The related terms are "Intermix Ratio", "Intermix Chamber", "Intermix Forumla"

Which are throwaway technobabble to which no physical object has ever been canonically tied. It is not established whether the "intermix ratio" or formula have anything to do with the intermix chamber. For all we know it's a ratio of reactor coolant to de-ionized water that have to be mixed before delivery to the warp core's heat exchanger.

Memory Alpha assumes otherwise.

Memory Alpha, being a wiki-software website, does not have the agency to make assumptions. That's for PEOPLE to do.

All other references to intermix are warp drive systems.

Well, they're ASSUMED to be warp drive systems, or related to them in some way. Again, nothing has ever been pointed to on screen with the words "intermix chamber," it could just as easily be a fancy type of coolant system, all our assumptions notwithstanding.

The Phoenix, The NX-01, Arctus Baran's ship, The Enterprise D (Galaxy Class), and Defiant. All these vessels have warp drive. All vessels these references are to faster than light systems.

The listed reference in phoenix is just for its engine components, not a warp drive component. It's telling that we don't even know what the intermix chambers look like on any of these ships, let alone what they actually do.

Your quote is ambigously offered to warp drive...

No, it's EXPLICITLY offered to impulse power. And the fact that the warp engines weren't working at the time because of "antimatter imbalance" clearly indicates the antimatter reactor system was not operational. If anything, this tell us that "intermix" is not necessarily part of the warp drive.

I think what it is...is that in the 24th century the core has been combined with the intermix chamber.

Indeed. Just needs to be established that what's true of the 24th century is not necessarily true of the 23rd, 22nd, or 21st.

We know that the intermix has everything to do with plasma flow, fuel control for anti matter and matter reactions.

Again, no. We simply know that the intermix chamber is a device that is very important for modern engine designs. We have NO IDEA how it relates to antimatter systems, or even if it is necessary for them, or even if it can work without them. We at least know from TMP that sometimes it CAN work without antimatter. This being the case, the Phoenix can also function without antimatter.

The switch that is flipped is clearly marked "Warp Core."

Fine. Show me a switch that says "antimatter injector" or "dilithium crystal status" and you might have something. Otherwise, there's no evidence that the warp core had any resemblance of any kind to its TNG/ENT counterparts, and circumstantial evidence--the time period and scarcity of resources--to suggest a very rudimentary, very primitive design using neither material.

You might as well suggests that the Wright Brothers powered their first flight with a turbofan engine and a fly-by-wire navigational computer.

I propose that the very mention of a warp core and intermix chamber is a direct relationship with antimatter/matter reactions.

And you suggest wrong, as already demonstrated that the presence of an intermix chamber has NO implication for any particular power system.

Even if it was just Fusion system I am incredulous of the possibilities of anything short of a large scale organization with resources and abundant materials putting together a Rocket Test Vehicle combination out the first try.

Cochrane clearly didn't have that kind of organization, so it's a non-starter. More likely he was just a crazy old man with an equally crazy idea that just happened to work.

 

[Bill Morris]

Doesn't raise any questions for me. Just establishes what I've basically always assumed, that those red caps on the front of the nacelles are not bussard collectors.

Well, it would be nice to clear that up.

From Startrek.com:

Bussard collectors
Episode: TNG 143 - Samaritan Snare

Component of the warp drive nacelles of Federation starships, name for a 20th century Terran physicist who first theorized their operation. Located at the front of the nacelle, the collectors generate large electromagnetic fields that attract the hydrogen gas found in interstellar space which is then used for fuel by the vessel's fusion reactors.

In 2365, the U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701-D discharged hydrogen back through the collectors into space. The discharge created a colorful but harmless display that frightened the Pakleds into releasing Chief Engineer Geordi La Forge from captivity aboard the Pakled ship, Mondor.

The Star Trek Encyclopedia has a nearly identical entry, just more specifically crediting Dr. Robert Bussard with originally proposing the concept. The shape of the fusion reactors for impulse engines, as seen on the Defiant MSD, for example, also seems to be a nod to Dr. Bussard's polywell concept.

And here's part of something from The Fact Files copied and redrawn by Gerard Gillan (Gilso), with labels.

The familiar blue glow on the side of warp nacelles comes from what are usually called warp field grilles, and the yellow grille you mentioned (aft of the now-disputed red cap) is called a photon radiator grille (not labeled in this drawing).

And one other bit of conjecture that may need some scrutiny:

 

[Crazy Eddie]

^ the Samaritan Snare incident is most puzzling of all, since hydrogen doesn't actually "glow" bright red, especially in a vacuum. I just assumed it was being backlit by the red glowy thing as it was vented through the yellow grid business BEHIND the red dome.

 

[Bill Morris]

Here's another stab at the Genesis device, closely following the hi-res screencaps generously provided by SonicRanger:

 

[DiSiLLUSiON]

It's still phallic-looking.

 

[Bill Morris]

For the Phoenix, just some minor cosmetic changes:

I think we can agree that if a starship runs out of antimatter, it can't go to warp using the impulse reactor, even with a lot of jury rigging. The TNG Tech manual even specifically mentions that.

 

[Vance]

I think we can agree that if a starship runs out of antimatter, it can't go to warp using the impulse reactor, even with a lot of jury rigging. The TNG Tech manual even specifically mentions that.

Like with everything else in Trek, 'except for when it does'.

The fusion reactors give a modest 'warp speed' several times in TOS. Keep in mind, though, that the impulse engines in TOS were considered a 'backup drive' as well - not nearly as powerful as the M/AM engines. Akin to relying on the 'furnaces' in a nuclear naval ship.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

I think we can agree that if a starship runs out of antimatter, it can't go to warp using the impulse reactor, even with a lot of jury rigging. The TNG Tech manual even specifically mentions that.

The TNG manual also mentions, you know - energy shield generators, phasers, artificial gravity, etc. etc.

The E-D is a Big Damn Ship. The Phoenix is a warp engine mounted on a 20 meter rocket. It's like the power requirement difference between a bicycle and a cruise liner.

 

[Search4]

Just because a ship 200 years more advanced, thats ginormous (if that is a word), uses antimatter, doesn't mean the Phoenix did. I find it hard to believe there's any anti-matter in this timeframe. LIlly couldn't even find titanium for the cockpit, not to say construct an antimatter-refinery (of course, perhaps they distilled it at the bar).

There's about, what 100 years between Cochran and Enterprise? More than time enough for them to determine they needed a power source, and create it.

Last - "plasma" is a general term for "ionized gas". You certainly don't need antimatter to create plasma, you need a source of energy. Unless you think your plasma TV is powered by antimatter...