E Plebnista.
Since When Is The Motion Picture A Good Trek Film?
- Thread starter Similitude
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E Plebnista.
This isn't really fair. I feel lucky that I sort of had an unbiased introduction to ST. What I mean by that is that my husband got a few TOS episodes and was like "you might be into this but probably not" and I was hooked. I had never paid serious attention to ST, only idly watched TNG, DS9 and VOY while I was growing up and only when there was nothing better on. I had never seen any TOS, or any Star trek movie, not even TWOK. I knew nothing about any of the films, I'd never had any interest in watching them, I'd just never given them any thought.
So after I finished all of TOS (in, like... two weeks) I went onto the movies with a totally blank slate and like I've said before, I thought TMP was AWESOME. It has some beautiful scenes, and a few of the scenes (transporter accident, wormhole) are some of the most shocking of all the TOS films. When it came time for TWOK, I thought that was also a good movie. The idea of using Khan as this supreme villan seemed weird to me, as he and Kirk left on what I had thought were decent terms. I could understand being pissed that the planet went to hell, but I could just never imagine Khan getting angry because Kirk never came back to check on them. He's a full grown man, why is he pissed he wasn't babysat? I thought he was more emotionally mature than that, and the fact that he isn't makes him a weaker character to me, and more 2D. The best part of the movie is Spock's death scene, I think that might just about be the most tragic and moving death in cinematic history.
Anyway, I like TWOK just like I like all the TOS movies (even V omg!!) but it's not my favorite by any stretch of the imagination, and I honestly don't see what it is about the movie that makes people think it's the best.
But that's all my opinion, of course.
While I see and understand your points about the Wrath of Khan, and myself being a TMP supporter, I like TWOK because it doesn't paint itself with obvious cliches. The biggest point towards TWOK would have to be Kirk being flawed.
Yes, I said it. I'll say it again if I have to. Granted that element was in TMP as well, but never to the extent that TWOK had. It's also my biggest gripe against ST09 because Kirk wasn't portrayed as being flawed at all. TWOK literally had Kirk taken by surprise in circumstances that he could have avoided had he'd followed standard procedures or listened to the concerns of his fellow crew members.
Plus it had Saavik, one of my all time favorite bridge crew members.
Sure you can. The attack on the Klingons serves no narrative purpose that isn't covered by the attack on the Epsilon 9 station. It's wasteful spectacle designed to show that Star Trek can now afford more elaborate Klingon regalia, and it introduces a huge logic hole that the film completely elides. Consider the plight of the Federation envoy who had to explain the loss of three cruisers to the Empire:
"So you're saying that a massively powerful alien intelligence imbued artificial intelligence into an Earth probe, which probe then destroyed our ships, made contact with you, was dissuaded from destroying Earth, and disappeared to parts unknown, and that it could conceivably head back and wipe us all out if it felt like it?"
"Yes, but we believe it's gained an understanding of the nobler ideals of humanity and evolved into a harmless exploratory entity."
"The problem is, even if I believe you, there's still no good reason not to have you shot."
trevanian
Rear Admiral
It serves a structural purpose, an outside open not involving the main characters that introduces the menace, like a teaser in many series, films, and novels. And it delivered requisite spectacle.
Your argument is the same one screenwriter Livingston had when it was still a TV project, that it was an expense that didn't further the storytelling; but he wasn't a filmmaker, he was a tv writer/producer who wasn't thinking of how this relaunched a whole universe, and would be subsidized over other installments/features.
Actually once could argue the converse: that it's the Epsilon Nine scenes serve no purpose. They could have shown the Klingons getting destroyed, then have Kirk tell Scotty what starfleet intelligence saw: 3 top line enemy battlecruisers swatted out of existence, and the thing that did it heading right for Earth.
There's some silly redundancy in the film. One such annoyance, minimized on the DE, was that by the time Spock says "I believe there's an object at the heart of that cloud", it was a "well, duh," moment because...
There's some silly redundancy in the film. One such annoyance, minimized on the DE, was that by the time Spock says "I believe there's an object at the heart of that cloud", it was a "well, duh," moment because...
- Klingon Captain (translated): Believe luminescent cloud to be enormous powerfield surrounding alien vessel.
- Epsilon Tech: Definitely something inside there.
- Kirk: We believe there to be a vessel of some kind at the heart of the cloud.
I believe that structural purpose was adequately satisfied by the attack on the Epsilon 9 station.
I can see that. Either way, it could be much tighter. I can see how having both sequences might more firmly establish that V'ger was traversing a great distance and could also allow for a useful bump as the story proceeds, but at the same time, I think that including both of them adds a certain redundancy that hurts the pacing of the film, since we've already seen V'ger absorb people and ships.
I had not considered your point about the utility of having Klingon models, sets, and costumes available for future use, which is certainly valid. "Wasteful" was the wrong word to use.
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trevanian
Rear Admiral
I didn't come to that conclusion till years later; it was after hearing that GR wrote a token engineering scene into FARPOINT to justify getting Engineering built that I realized how important it might be to spend money up front on something that will get reused or else maybe have to do without it for the duration.
Between them, TMP and TWoK capture the spirit of TOS. TMP reminds me of the pilots and the first half of season one, TWoK of later season one and season two. I love them both.
Many would argue that tthat wasn'ta flaw. IT WAS INCOMPETENCE! Seriously he waited till Reliant locked phasers to raise sheilds instead of when Reliant rasied sheilds.
Wonder how the board of inquiry would have gone?
Helpfully, the whale probe turned up and he saved the world.
Giant probes approaching earth are like buses. You wait ages for one...
WOW, you guys are hardcore old school Trek people, a different breed of fan, but hey it is what is, if you like the TMP so much go crazy with the Blu-ray then and enjoy.
Actually, I never said that I "like TMP so much" (though some of my fellow "hardcore old school Trek people" did say so). I like it, it has some good points, and it was great to see new Trek after all those years of repeats, but it isn't my favorite Trek movie by any means. I like it a lot better than TWOK, though.
Which leads me to...
Would I prove your point if I said, "No, it doesn't!"?
But it really doesn't, not in my case. After TMP, which I liked but definitely agree was flawed, I had very high hopes for the second movie. And then it turned out to be TWOK. Such a disappointment. So I don't see how I could be moved merely by a spirit of contradiction - of disliking something primarily because other fans like it - when I really wanted to like the movie. I just...didn't like it, even though I wanted to.
Mind you, I haven't seen it all the way through in a long time (though I have seen bits and pieces of it), so maybe I'd like it better now. But I really think a big part of the problem for me is that I just do not find Khan compelling - never have - and since the villain is more important to this Trek movie than it is to most, how you perceive the villain is a major part of how much you enjoy this movie. And...well, I don't want to annoy TWOK fans any more than I have already, so I'll just say that my perception of Khan as villain who is supposed to hold my interest for an entire movie is not good!
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But... but... he had that 80's cool big hair!!!
I'm with ya in liking TMP better, much better.
Well I love TMP. It has the favourite look and feel to any Trek movie - lots of aliens, that kind of sterile 70's sci fi chic - you could believe that this really was the Federation's bland attempt at Utopia. The Enterprise here is still my favourite of any show or series before or since.
It brought pretty much all the crew back together (ok Kyle and Leslie didn't make it but almost all), Decker and Ilia were interesting additions, and I loved the mix of crew on the Rec Deck. Nimoy's performance in the film is brilliant.
The pacing is a bit languid and I was quite disappointed that some of the supporting cast's character scenes were clipped from the Director's Cut but overall I loved it.
TWOK will always be my favourite Trek film but TMP featured my favourite version of the Enterprise and Federation.
It brought pretty much all the crew back together (ok Kyle and Leslie didn't make it but almost all), Decker and Ilia were interesting additions, and I loved the mix of crew on the Rec Deck. Nimoy's performance in the film is brilliant.
The pacing is a bit languid and I was quite disappointed that some of the supporting cast's character scenes were clipped from the Director's Cut but overall I loved it.
TWOK will always be my favourite Trek film but TMP featured my favourite version of the Enterprise and Federation.
How can the Epsilon sequence be more important than the klingon one??
The Klingon scene is to show how powerful Vejur is. Easily destroying 3 agressive powerful klingon cruisers. Episilon is a massive bulky space station that is probably not very well armed and in any case doesn't use the weapons it may or may have.
The klingon scene is far more important.
The Klingon scene is to show how powerful Vejur is. Easily destroying 3 agressive powerful klingon cruisers. Episilon is a massive bulky space station that is probably not very well armed and in any case doesn't use the weapons it may or may have.
The klingon scene is far more important.
Perhaps because, unlike the Klingon scene, Episilon was still destroyed even though it did not attack or show any aggresive moves at all.
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