number6
Vice Admiral
Absolutely Right™
weighting of the JJverse
- Thread starter Ronald Held
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Absolutely Right™
I found myself quite invested in the characters in the new series so I'm on board for more. I think to say that just because people have "moved on" means the film failed as a franchise starter is silly. I adore LOST but when the season ended I still watched other shows. Does that mean that LOST failed because I didn't go back and watch it again and again? No, of course not.
I have no doubt that the Star Trek DVD will sell well. Why wouldn't it?
I have no doubt that the Star Trek DVD will sell well. Why wouldn't it?
Are you invested in beardy Spock and any other character we've ever seen from a mirror universe?
I almost can't believe that they didn't have the guts to say "screw you lot, we're rebooting Star Trek" instead opting for some nebulous region in between reboot and sequel. I would totally be on board for that, but knowing that the 'real' Trek universe is happening somewhere else is kinda off-putting.
It was a fun movie, a good movie, but that's all it'll ever be for me.
You guys are so emotionally invested in this film that you're totally ignoring the nature of a summer block-buster. This 'launch' is not for all things Trek, it's nothing more than itself, and potentially a couple of sequels, and immediate merchanidisng around that.
Do you guys honestly think that in 2029 millions of people will be still thrilling to the exploits of Chris Pine's Kirk? Or that it'll spawn several TV shows, countless books, etc, all set in this NuTrek (and, more to the point, to the absense of the old)? And, if you truly believe that, then why don't you think that the movies which are now beating NuTrek are going to be doing it?
And why do you feel it abosultely neccessary to denegrate, degrade, harass, and flame anyone who might suggest that this movie, successful as it is, is not the Star Trek equivalent of the Rapture? Why is it so personally important to you to go through every single forum to behave in this manner? Why is NuTrek part of your personal identity? And why can't you go more than two lines in a message without denegrate all other aspects of Trek in order to 'prove your point'?
Do you guys honestly think that in 2029 millions of people will be still thrilling to the exploits of Chris Pine's Kirk? Or that it'll spawn several TV shows, countless books, etc, all set in this NuTrek (and, more to the point, to the absense of the old)? And, if you truly believe that, then why don't you think that the movies which are now beating NuTrek are going to be doing it?
And why do you feel it abosultely neccessary to denegrate, degrade, harass, and flame anyone who might suggest that this movie, successful as it is, is not the Star Trek equivalent of the Rapture? Why is it so personally important to you to go through every single forum to behave in this manner? Why is NuTrek part of your personal identity? And why can't you go more than two lines in a message without denegrate all other aspects of Trek in order to 'prove your point'?
number6
Vice Admiral
It sounds like you're the one with an "emotional investment." No one has done any of those things for several pages.
Erm, you yourself did on this very forum page.
And, really, I have no personal investment to the film, except that some of you are demanding that I stake 'all things Trek' onto it because it's the inevitable future of all things Trek, which is utter nonsense.
It's akin to screwing a super-model one night and thinking you're going to get a successful long term marriage out of it.
What's really going to happen is that Trek will become a lot more like the Bond, Batman, and even Transformers franchises. Every time the studio notices that Trek is waning, it'll be rebooted - new cast, crew, etc... even more than it has already. It's how studios work, and since it's now officially 'summer popcorn fare', they're not going to think twice about things like 'consistancy' or 'long term fandom'. And, they're perfectly within their rights to do so.
This movie will be reset and ignored no more than two more movies down the line, when something 'new' for the 'now young' audiences need things catered specifically to THEM.
That's what I mean by it not being a franchise builder.. it's a brand builder.. and that's all Trek is now. It's staggering to me that so many of you either don't realize the difference or its implications.. or that you really just don't care, despite your obvious emotional attachment to this movie.
number6
Vice Admiral
I'm not demanding anything.
It's just a simple fact.
Trek as we knew it died. This film has rekindled interest.
It seems pretty clear (and in fact was stated time and again by many on this BBS), that the best way to rekindle interest in Star Trek was to go back to its roots: Kirk and Spock.
Every incarnation of Star Trek has reinvented itself to bring in a new audience. The films are no exception. Star Trek has been a "brand" for the last few decades by your own definition. No one is forcing you to accept anything. You can go and watch your Laser Discs of the original show and ignore the rest of it if you choose to do so.
Most fans would concede that Trek has needed some fresh blood for a long time and we now have it. You can't expect Trek to move into the future without change. And change it has over 40 years. I do realise the difference and implications of what you're saying. The problem is that you seem to think that this has only happened with this new film, when in reality Star Trek as a "brand" has been in the process for the last 30 years.
My emotional attachment is to Star Trek as a whole. I happen to enjoy this film. Who are you to think that you have the right to take that away from me or dismiss anyone who likes this film as being as shallow as you obviously seem to think? We're all fans here.....aren't we?
Do I think we'll talk about this current cast and incarnation?
Who knows? But Paramount isn't making Star Trek out of the goodness of their hearts of because they love you or me as fans. They are looking to build an audience and make money, otherwise it ends. That's how it was in 1969, 1974, 1980, 2003 and in 2005. Every film in the franchise begged the question "Will there ever be another one?" except this one (and to a lesser extent TWOK). That is not an insignificant thing to consider.
Whether you liked what they did with this film or not, it was very successful and TPTB will make more, as long as they bring in an audience. Whether they hold to the standards of Star Trek as we know it will always remain to be seen.
Some fans have elevated TOS to biblical proportions and thus have set unrealistic expectations on what Trek must do to be accepted by these fans. So as a result, Trek may flourish under the new guard and you will continue to be pissed off no matter what. No one can help that. And no one will care. I don't.
It's just a simple fact.
Trek as we knew it died. This film has rekindled interest.
It seems pretty clear (and in fact was stated time and again by many on this BBS), that the best way to rekindle interest in Star Trek was to go back to its roots: Kirk and Spock.
Every incarnation of Star Trek has reinvented itself to bring in a new audience. The films are no exception. Star Trek has been a "brand" for the last few decades by your own definition. No one is forcing you to accept anything. You can go and watch your Laser Discs of the original show and ignore the rest of it if you choose to do so.
Most fans would concede that Trek has needed some fresh blood for a long time and we now have it. You can't expect Trek to move into the future without change. And change it has over 40 years. I do realise the difference and implications of what you're saying. The problem is that you seem to think that this has only happened with this new film, when in reality Star Trek as a "brand" has been in the process for the last 30 years.
My emotional attachment is to Star Trek as a whole. I happen to enjoy this film. Who are you to think that you have the right to take that away from me or dismiss anyone who likes this film as being as shallow as you obviously seem to think? We're all fans here.....aren't we?
Do I think we'll talk about this current cast and incarnation?
Who knows? But Paramount isn't making Star Trek out of the goodness of their hearts of because they love you or me as fans. They are looking to build an audience and make money, otherwise it ends. That's how it was in 1969, 1974, 1980, 2003 and in 2005. Every film in the franchise begged the question "Will there ever be another one?" except this one (and to a lesser extent TWOK). That is not an insignificant thing to consider.
Whether you liked what they did with this film or not, it was very successful and TPTB will make more, as long as they bring in an audience. Whether they hold to the standards of Star Trek as we know it will always remain to be seen.
Some fans have elevated TOS to biblical proportions and thus have set unrealistic expectations on what Trek must do to be accepted by these fans. So as a result, Trek may flourish under the new guard and you will continue to be pissed off no matter what. No one can help that. And no one will care. I don't.
Yes, you are, with nearly every single post. I have NEVER said, not once, that you shouldn't enjoy the film. You assume that statement, but it's absolutely not true. I have said, and I maintain, that this is NOT the 'rebirth of Trek' that many fans assume that it's going to be. Even Abrams himself only sees a trilogy out of this.. which is fine.
But will this be what returns Trek to the power it once was? Absolutely not. It doesn't embody what made Trek work in the first place, nor did it attempt to. (Hell, Abrams deliberately went the opposite way in many points). It's got all the depth, strength, and weaknesses of a Micheal Bay flick. (And before you rush to be insulted, remember that Transformers II just soundly BEAT NuTrek.)
And that's where you're wrong. It hasn't. It got a momentary spike because the film was 'in' for a short time. It no longer is, and that interest (from casual people, non fans) is now gone because the overwhelming majority already went to the next movie (Transformers) and are now looking for the NEXT movie for the summer. Trek is now not the 'in thing', and that interest won't be back again until the sequel is underway. That's the nature of the beast.
And that's my whole point. This is not, nor could it be, the 'spark of lightning' that rekindles it all. It was never intended to be. It was only intended to be a summer blockbuster, which it succeeded at being. A lot of the Trek geeks were super thrilled about suddenly being accepted in the 'mainstream' for a short time... but, hey, look, all that stuff's gone now, and we're all back to just being geeks.
Trek is still not mainstream, and neither are we. The Trek franchise is now back to where it was before this movie came out. You go check how sales of all the other stuff is doing, etc. Pretty much the same shitter as it was a year ago. NuTrek and OldTrek.
That's the real issue, and everyone who thinks otherwise is really kidding themselves.
As an aside... I seriously do question if a number of people who were pushing NuTrek so hard actually ever were Trek fans. I don't expect (or even want) a bunch of people worshipping TOS, but I do question how much someone can be a Trek fan if the only way the defend the new movie is to denegrate everything that came before it.
number6
Vice Admiral
I am certainly not denigrating anything that came before.
And I publicly defy you to provide a quote of me doing so.
I enjoyed a lot of the films and all the series since I saw TOS in syndication in 1972.
Star Trek was in the theatres for 10 weeks.
In this day and age that is significant. Its release on DVD will generate more interest for the holidays. This film was originally intended to be released last year, so it was never intended to be a summer blockbuster until, well..it was. Some people have moved on and that is the nature of things, but this new film has generated interest in Star Trek, the like of which I haven't seen since the early 90s. Will there be other films/series? I hope so. Will they be good? I hope so.
Stating your opinion and then stating that "everyone who thinks otherwise is really kidding yourselves" is patently offensive and counter-productive to this discussion.
I went into this new film with as much trepidation as any other fan. I liked what they did. Did I like all of it? No. That doesn't or shouldn't make me less of a fan and it's not up to you to question that. You are not the arbiter of who is or isn't a fan to any degree and it is wildly presumptuous of you to question that of me or anyone else.
And I publicly defy you to provide a quote of me doing so.
I enjoyed a lot of the films and all the series since I saw TOS in syndication in 1972.
Star Trek was in the theatres for 10 weeks.
In this day and age that is significant. Its release on DVD will generate more interest for the holidays. This film was originally intended to be released last year, so it was never intended to be a summer blockbuster until, well..it was. Some people have moved on and that is the nature of things, but this new film has generated interest in Star Trek, the like of which I haven't seen since the early 90s. Will there be other films/series? I hope so. Will they be good? I hope so.
Stating your opinion and then stating that "everyone who thinks otherwise is really kidding yourselves" is patently offensive and counter-productive to this discussion.
I went into this new film with as much trepidation as any other fan. I liked what they did. Did I like all of it? No. That doesn't or shouldn't make me less of a fan and it's not up to you to question that. You are not the arbiter of who is or isn't a fan to any degree and it is wildly presumptuous of you to question that of me or anyone else.
I would like to repost something from another thread that is valid to the discussion.
Assuming that I'm lazy, which I can be, particularly on the next, I won't go looking for you. But are you really saying that many of Dennis's posts, Disillusion, et al, haven't been doing that? It happened more than once in this very thread... why do you think I react/reacted the way that I do/did?
If you're (in the generic sense of 'you') going to say "Only NuTrek is any good, all old Trek sucks so shut up" then I'm not going to consider you a fan of Trek in general. In fact, I'm going to wonder about your motives in being here in the first place.
When did I say it wasn't a hit? And sure it'll get DVD sales, and I'm sure the sequel (which I can't imagine not coming) will get draw and do well as well. (I won't hedge on #3 at this point, though...) But that doesn't translate to long term interest in the casual movie-going person.
There have been too many hits of this type that 'peaked and dissapeared' in the past several years to say otherwise. They're entities into and of themselves, they peak some curiosity for a very short time, and then people go off for the next fun thing. Like I said, it's the nature of the beast. It's an axiom. It's how the movie-going public works.
Because I can't consider it just an opinion. There's too much evidence for that conclusion now (the clearacing out of NuTrek merchandise, as well as the price drop in the new discs, etc) to be 'just opinion'.
No matter what you personally think of the movie, the average 'man on the street' had no more connection to it than they did Iron Man, Transformers, The Dark Knight, or now, Revenge of the Fallen. What you just saw was not a revival, it was a fad, and it's already over.
Of COURSE they were all 'paned', that's how cameras work.
number6
Vice Admiral
Word.
I never knew how much Star Trek sucked until I started coming to this fan site.
number6
Vice Admiral
I am not going to speak for anyone else, though I personally don't think Dennis or Disillusion have denigrated what has come before.
Whether or not you meant to imply a generic "you" or not, I am directing you to prove your assertion. I have yet to see a post that states what you claim. It is up to you to prove it, otherwise it's just a lot of pointless hyperbole.
Sure it does. If sequels to this film are successful, that speaks very well for the future of the franchise. We'll likely see more films, books, series, and merchandise. That's the nature of things.
For non franchise films, I would tend to agree. I don't think this applies to Star Trek any more than I think it applies to Bond, Batman, Harry Potter, et al. All have generated its own fanbase independently of the film franchise and continue to flourish in its many incarnations.
That's a load of rubbish. Of course sales are going to drop after the fact. TOS is being reissued in Blu-Ray, so naturally the original DVD is being reduced. The other series are as well, because those shows are off the air.
I guarantee as sure as the sun will rise that those remaining DVDs will hit the shelves again when the new film is released on DVD. That's the nature of retail and not indicative of a failure on any part of the film or the franchise. That's your opinion and you are completely wrong.
Only until the next release, but in the process all of these films have generated fans who buy the merch, read the comics and will come back when the next installment is in the theatres. That is also the nature of things. No matter how you move the goalposts of this discussion, you are still wrong.
Just keep living in denial, Number6. Neither you nor I, nor Trek, is any more mainstream any more now than you were before the movie came out. The main difference between us, though, is that I'm okay with that, really, and you are not.
So here's a more pressing question, since very little of Trek has been mainstream over the years, but we still got material anyway, why is being mainstream now so important to you personally? Why must you, personally, have acceptance of the man on the street for liking Trek?
So here's a more pressing question, since very little of Trek has been mainstream over the years, but we still got material anyway, why is being mainstream now so important to you personally? Why must you, personally, have acceptance of the man on the street for liking Trek?
XanatosVanBadas
Cadet
Y'know, last week or so I was at a Target and saw a Mom taking her son to the toy section, you know what the kid wanted? A Star Trek phaser.
Yeah, everyones REALLY moved on, especially considering how poorly TF2 was recieved (in general that is).
LOL, I don't think its important to anyone here really. Nice e-psychoalalyzing though. Its just that most people would like to see Star Trek be a success and continue, especially since it has produced a movie the majority enjoyed. More interest means a higher probability for a sequel.
I'm sorry you're so butthurt over the success of a movie you dislike.
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number6
Vice Admiral
Yeah, everyones REALLY moved on, especially considering how poorly TF2 was recieved (in general that is).
So, who are you REALLY, Sockpuppet? TF2's kicked Trek's sales ass, both in the theatre and in merchandise. And guess what, cochise, I don't like Bay's Transformers much.
And I'm sorry to have to be personally attacked, very grossly incorrectly, by a coward who has to use a secondary name to strike from. If you're going to prove your balls to me, it would help to now cower behind your sockpuppet.
XanatosVanBadas
Cadet
LOL, I'm not a sock puppet, genius. Just a lurker who decided he had something to say. Its a good thing your pissy attitude isn't causing you to make brash judgement calls or anything.
lol victim complex.
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