• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Size Of The New Enterprise (large images)

Status
Not open for further replies.
To me that shot definitely looks like its a shot of a 366 meterish ship.

Again, "it looks to me..." is not an acceptable argument.

I'm baffled why some people claim that the windows are scaled wrong for the ship to be 700 meters.

Here are the saucer windows on the 300-meter TMP ship:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tmp/ch29/themotionpicture1355.jpg

Here are the saucer windows on the nuEnterprise:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/xi/screencaps/prerelease/enterprise579_l.jpg

Clearly the nuEnterprise windows allow for a much bigger ship.

Same for the airlocks:

TMP:http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tmp/themotionpicture0184.jpg

Like the windows, the airlocks are proportionally smaller, especially considering that the new airlocks also double as escape pod hatches.


I'm going to respond to this by quoting my own post from a few posts back, and I will highlight the part that I believe applies to you:)

Goodness gracious this is neverending. Pages and pages of the exact same arguments..."No, Im right because..." "No, Im right because.." Well this scene shows it at one size....No, thats wrong, you are obviously blind and living in an imaginary world..." Geesh people, cant the small ship crowd realize that no matter what you say, the more vocal people on this thread have decided it is one size and they no matter what will not allow you to get the last word?

Can't the large ship crowd except the fact that not everyone agrees with you and you are not the authority on all things Star Trek?

Just agree to disagree because obviously neither side is going to have their minds changed...Can't we just do that and stop with the attacks and the name calling and charges of ignorance?....yes? ......Didnt think so, I think you all should fight it out to the death.:lol:
 
Mangledduk said:
I'm going to respond to this by quoting my own post from a few posts back, and I will highlight the part that I believe applies to you:)

Goodness gracious this is neverending. Pages and pages of the exact same arguments..."No, Im right because..." "No, Im right because.." Well this scene shows it at one size....No, thats wrong, you are obviously blind and living in an imaginary world..." Geesh people, cant the small ship crowd realize that no matter what you say, the more vocal people on this thread have decided it is one size and they no matter what will not allow you to get the last word?

Can't the large ship crowd except the fact that not everyone agrees with you and you are not the authority on all things Star Trek?

Just agree to disagree because obviously neither side is going to have their minds changed...Can't we just do that and stop with the attacks and the name calling and charges of ignorance?....yes? ......Didnt think so, I think you all should fight it out to the death.:lol:

So when I present some evidence and logic to back up my argument, all you have to say is "Hey, can't you accept that you don't know everything and not everyone believes in evidence and logic to back up an argument?"

Do you believe that the Earth is 6000 years old too because some people feel that way and would prefer it to be?
 
^^^

So when I present some evidence and logic to back up my argument, all you have to say is "Hey, can't you accept that you don't know everything and not everyone believes in evidence and logic to back up an argument?"

Do you believe that the Earth is 6000 years old too because some people feel that way and would prefer it to be?

I think everyone will be more willing to accept your evidence if you do the same when evidence is presented that does not support your point. I have nothing against your view and I do believe the ship was shown in a larger scale, BUT it was also shown in a smaller scale. Many other members on this thread have presented evidence supporting the possibility that the construction scene shows a smaller ship. Myself and others have pointed out the figures on the hull and have immediately been attacked saying we are chasing windmills and building castles in the sky and we should accept the opinion of a few if we know whats good for us. Our screencaps and evidence we presented was immediately written off and said to be invalid, and then you expect people to take your similar evidence as absolutely fool proof evidence. I'm sorry I have found in my life that when I don't listen to people, they usually don't listen to me. I have simply called for the end of childish insults and personal attacks, and the acceptance of the fact that not everyone agrees on everything. You can have your view, I have no problem with it, but from the beginning I have said "The ship is shown in DIFFERENT scales" yet the argument still continues....:rolleyes:

By the way:
I don't know about you, but when I compare what I said, and what you claim I said, there are some obvious differences. I have no problem with you quoting me, but please make sure to quote me correctly without assuming I am saying something that I am not.

Can't the large ship crowd except the fact that not everyone agrees with you and you are not the authority on all things Star Trek?

"Hey, can't you accept that you don't know everything and not everyone believes in evidence and logic to back up an argument?"
 
Mangledduk, you don't get it. People claim that details like the windows weren't properly rescaled for a larger ship. The images I posted prove that false. Either (1) the windows are smaller on a 300-meter nuEnterprise or (2) the windows can be roughly the same size on a 700-meter nuEnterprise. But the claim that the windows are the same size on the TMP Enterprise and nuEnterprise and therefore are proof that the ship was haphazardly rescaled is demonstrably false. Consequently, such a claim can be proved invalid. The 300-meter crowd has yet to prove false a claim by the 700-meter crowd, and they tend to use specious and subjective arguments like "It looks 300 meters."
 
Mangledduk, you don't get it. People claim that details like the windows weren't properly rescaled for a larger ship. The images I posted prove that false. Either (1) the windows are smaller on a 300-meter nuEnterprise or (2) the windows can be roughly the same size on a 700-meter nuEnterprise. But the claim that the windows are the same size on the TMP Enterprise and nuEnterprise and therefore are proof that the ship was haphazardly rescaled is demonstrably false. Consequently, such a claim can be proved invalid. The 300-meter crowd has yet to prove false a claim by the 700-meter crowd, and they tend to use specious and subjective arguments like "It looks 300 meters."

SonicRanger, I do get it, I have seen the same argument before...probably from you. In a lot of cases I agree with you. Namely the cases where you show that the ship is shown to be over 700 meters. I came to the same conclusion, however there is plenty of evidence to suggest that it was not shown as over 700 meters in EVERY shot. This was supported when Alex Jaeger said they scaled the ship according to what looked good in the shot. In the construction scene if they would have shown an over 700 meter ship, you would barely be able to see the figures walking on the hull. There are flaws in each argument, because like I said before, I believe the ship was shown in differing scales in the movie. I personally have never clung to the window argument because that argument simply assumes that all windows are standard sizes. I really wish you would be less confrontational in your posts from time to time. Sometimes simply exchanging opposing viewpoints with you feels like we are getting into a pointless neverending "who has a bigger logic" debate.:lol:
 
Methinks that some people participating in this thread should go out and get laid.

...really isn't called for in any way, nor has it anything to do with the topic.

It is, however, sound advice that I'd be more than willing to take. ;)

I was merely suggesting that while the Enterprise does indeed have ample nacelles... nevermind. I'm glad that at least person saw the humour in my suggesting that we should make love, not terrible arguments regarding the size of a fictional ship.
 
...really isn't called for in any way, nor has it anything to do with the topic.

It is, however, sound advice that I'd be more than willing to take. ;)

I was merely suggesting that while the Enterprise does indeed have ample nacelles... nevermind. I'm glad that at least person saw the humour in my suggesting that we should make love, not terrible arguments regarding the size of a fictional ship.

I thought your comment was funny as well:)
 
Mangledduk & SonicRanger, there has already been conformation from ILM's Bruce Holcomb that the ship was originally done at 1,300ft, then scaled up to 2,000+ft.

The visual details of the CG model were done for a smaller scale ship!:brickwall: Even the O.D. of the escape pod in relation to the docking port in that specific sequence supports the smaller 1300ft scale.

Though the curious note is that there doesn't appear to be an official scale on the model kit's packaging. As if leaving the option open for the scale of the ship to change in the next movie.
 
Mangledduk & SonicRanger, there has already been conformation from ILM's Bruce Holcomb that the ship was originally done at 1,300ft, then scaled up to 2,000+ft.

The visual details of the CG model were done for a smaller scale ship!:brickwall: Even the O.D. of the escape pod in relation to the docking port in that specific sequence supports the smaller 1300ft scale.

Though the curious note is that there doesn't appear to be an official scale on the model kit's packaging. As if leaving the option open for the scale of the ship to change in the next movie.

This is exactly what I have been saying all along. Thank you sir:)
 
Mangledduk & SonicRanger, there has already been conformation from ILM's Bruce Holcomb that the ship was originally done at 1,300ft, then scaled up to 2,000+ft.

The visual details of the CG model were done for a smaller scale ship!...

And there has already been confirmation that the TOS Enterprise was originally designed at 540 feet, then scaled up to 947 feet.

But that does not mean that (1) visual details of the TOS model were done for a smaller scale ship nor that (2) any visuals in TOS support the smaller scale.

The point is that Holcomb never says exactly when the ship was scaled up, nor does he say that the details were never changed, nor does he say that some of the visuals in the film are still the small size. In fact, the windows does support that the details were changed when you compare their relative sizes on the images I posted.
 
Mangledduk & SonicRanger, there has already been conformation from ILM's Bruce Holcomb that the ship was originally done at 1,300ft, then scaled up to 2,000+ft.

The visual details of the CG model were done for a smaller scale ship!...

And there has already been confirmation that the TOS Enterprise was originally designed at 540 feet, then scaled up to 947 feet.

But that does not mean that (1) visual details of the TOS model were done for a smaller scale ship nor that (2) any visuals in TOS support the smaller scale.

The point is that Holcomb never says exactly when the ship was scaled up, nor does he say that the details were never changed, nor does he say that some of the visuals in the film are still the small size. In fact, the windows does support that the details were changed when you compare their relative sizes on the images I posted.

Basically we don't really know what the size is. Every bit of evidence we have presented is conjecture. It would be different if we were presented with one "official" size, but we haven't. We have had the actual model makers on occasion say that they weren't sure what scale the ship was at in any given scene. They said they made it the scale that worked best "for the scene".
 
Except for two facts: (1) the ILM folks have given a range of final lengths all within about 25 m of 740 m and (2) your own illustrations demonstrate that the shuttlebay as shown demands a size well in excess of 366 m.
 
Plus to add to the rescaling/upsizing conformation:

In Cinefex #118 that I bought last month - Quoting ILM Art Director Alex Jaeger...

"The reconfigured ship was a larger vessel than previous manifestations-- approximately 1,200-feet-long compared to the 947-foot ship of the original series. Once we got the ship built and started putting it in environments it felt too small. The shuttle bay gave us a clear relative scale -- shuttles initially appeared much bigger than we had imagined -- so we bumped up the Enterprise scale, which gave her a grander feel"

Basically, they "fudged" it, from scene to scene, and detailed the CG model for the smaller scale ship.

:)
 
Last edited:
Re: Size Of The New Enterprise

I always thought it was around the size of the refit...maybe bigger.
Didn't ever once think it was bigger than the D or E.

Judging from the sizes of each ship's bridge I might say that the new enterprise is maybe twice as big as the original, but no more.

Agreed... until you take into account that the production design team had no concept of scale, and put no attempt into making the interior fit the exterior. Matt Jeffries and Andy Probert, on the other hand, did.

So, yeah, if you go by the viewscreen (errr... window), it's about the size of the refit. If you go by the bridge, it's maybe 1.5 to 2 times the size. If you go by the brewery.... errrr... I mean engineering, it's many times larger.

If you go by the corridors that lead off the bridge (you know, the ones Chekov runs through to get to the transporter room), it's much more massive than that, or Chekov was running in outer space.

:) :lol:
 
Plus to add to the rescaling/upsizing conformation:

In Cinefex #118 that I bought last month - Quoting ILM Art Director Alex Jaeger...

"The reconfigured ship was a larger vessel than previous manifestations-- approximately 1,200-feet-long compared to the 947-foot ship of the original series. Once we got the ship built and started putting it in environments it felt too small. The shuttle bay gave us a clear relative scale -- shuttles initially appeared much bigger than we had imagined -- so we bumped up the Enterprise scale, which gave her a grander feel"

Basicly, they "fudged" it, from scene to scene, and the most likely also detailed the CG model for the smaller scale ship.

:)

No one is denying that ILM upscaled the nuEnterprise at some point. The question is when. Was it during ILM's initial digital "sketches" or test renders of scenes that they felt the ship was too small? Or was it later after a bunch of scenes had been finally rendered and were "in the can"? There is no indication from the statements you've cited. Nor does Jaeger say, "... we bumped up the Enterprise scale late in the game and were too lazy to rescale the details."

And again, the smaller relative sizes of the saucer windows fly directly in the face of any claim that the model wasn't redetailed for the larger size.
 
Re: Size Of The New Enterprise

Agreed... until you take into account that the production design team had no concept of scale, and put no attempt into making the interior fit the exterior. Matt Jeffries and Andy Probert, on the other hand, did.

:rolleyes:

Except for the facts that (1) the shuttlebay as shown in TOS won't fit inside the TOS Enterprise and (2) the rec deck as shown in TMP won't fit inside the TMP refit. Let's not even mention the much larger TOS shuttle interior than its exterior.

All Trek incarnations have suffered from this problem.
 
And there has already been confirmation that the TOS Enterprise was originally designed at 540 feet, then scaled up to 947 feet.

But that does not mean that (1) visual details of the TOS model were done for a smaller scale ship nor that (2) any visuals in TOS support the smaller scale.
Actually, had that earlier Enterprise looked like the final version of the ship it would have been approximately 540 feet at the earlier scale. The earlier design had quite a few differences in the way it was put together, so it wasn't as if the same drawings were given a new scale, new drawings were made. But we know that the final size (and design) was arrived at in late October of 1964.

The primary evidence of the early scale came from hull markings on the models. Those markings came from the earlier plans because the final plans for construction of the models didn't include any references for hull markings at all.

Originally the audience was to get an idea of scale from the bridge structure on the model (and the planned zoom in shot). Roddenberry wanted more details, so windows were added. But the bridge and models were originally design to work together in that way. The 33 inch model was finished at about the same time as construction of the original bridge set was started, and the live action zoom in footage of the bridge seen in The Cage was shot about a week before construction of the 11 foot model was started.

Except for the facts that (1) the shuttlebay as shown in TOS won't fit inside the TOS Enterprise and (2) the rec deck as shown in TMP won't fit inside the TMP refit. Let's not even mention the much larger TOS shuttle interior than its exterior.
The hangar deck was a forced perspective model, the plans for that forced perspective model were never intended to be used as the actual size.

Jefferies illustrated what the actual size was, it was others who decided to follow the plans of the forced perspective miniature as if they were accurate.

The point is that Holcomb never says exactly when the ship was scaled up, nor does he say that the details were never changed, nor does he say that some of the visuals in the film are still the small size. In fact, the windows does support that the details were changed when you compare their relative sizes on the images I posted.
Actually we know that the model was finished and use for renderings of the ship under construction at the original scale (even though it was later composited with elements to make it seem larger). When additional effects shots started coming in the size of the ship became an issue and some shots were redone and others were completely redesigned long after the previsualization team had left the project.

It has been said by people working on this that a lot of these changes happen late in the game, and some elements were deemed good enough at their original scale to not warrant redoing them.



Frankly, I'm not sure why those who are happy with the larger size seem embarrassed by the timeline of events... it doesn't change the final outcome, the ship is larger in the end.

All this sounds like people claiming that their team was winning throughout the whole of a game when in fact their team took the lead in the third quarter. So what if the other side was ahead in the first half, it doesn't effect the final outcome. The movie is out, any sequels will build on what we were given (unless Shatner directs, in which case all bets are off :eek: ).
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top