Is Seven a Borg "Princess"

[Brit]

The discussion in the Seven and Chakotay thread has taken kind of a turn, into a discussion of Seven and the Borg. Just what was her place in the Collective. I ask KimC if she could split the thread and found out that it was a very manual process on this board, so I agreed to start a new thread and post the links to the discussion.

My theory is that Seven was a proto queen, a drone programmed to be Queen should the need arise.

The lack of a childhood with the Borg would be reason enough for Seven’s lack of experience, but there is one more factor. Seven had an emotion dampener, so her view of the world and the emotional impact of social interactions, let alone learning to relate to people as friends or even potential lovers was muted if not outright filtered. That had to add to her emotional immaturity.

I don’t think it is realistic to think she could catch up to someone as mature as Chakotay in only four years without said filtering, let alone with it. I cannot suspend my disbelief on that one.

Brit

Excellent point. Another factor is the impact of the dampener's removal. There is an assumption that this is a good thing, that she will be experiencing nothing but "good" emotions. However, she would also be experiencing bad or negative emotions with more clarity and depth than ever before. The removal of the dampener would be a double-edged sword.

My daughter (FYI who has a BS in Biology and several hours toward a MS in Neurobiology) says that the dampener would have had to be turned off in stages, a little at a time to avoid psychotic reactions.

Brit

To which Teya added

First, I wonder exactly how long she had that dampener. Since it was a part of the cortical node--which is not Seven's original node, but belonged to Icheb--her original node might not have had that technology. This would explain how Seven already experienced grief, anger, remorse, guilt, etc. Strong and powerful emotions.

Second, to try and use this directly from 21st century medicine is a bit absurd. After all, in the 24th century, they can replicate new neural tissue, provide IV fluids without an IV set-up, put people into stasis, and seemingly magically treat any and all illnesses (unless something seemingly incurable is required for the plot ) with just the raising of the arch on the biobed.

They have also been able to cure most psychoses since Kirk's day.

My daughter’s M/S study was with a professor that was working on the theory that the brain really is a sort of a computer and works like a computer network. One of the case studies she did look at was a male with a brain injury that left him unable to feel any emotion. She said he was a complete and utter airhead, and that his was one of the nicer case studies that she was exposed to.

I might add here that my daughter also told me later that the man in question made a lot of really bad decisions mainly because he couldn’t “feel” the consequences of his actions.

From here on page 24 it gets going really well when the subject of Seven the Queen in waiting was broached.

http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=96022&page=24

http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=96022&page=25

http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=96022&page=26

To let you all know I am writing a Borg Queen story, and I have a theory of just how Borg Queens are formed.

But with the subjective mechanical logic that marked the basic Borg philosophy and through trial and error, the processes were formed and set in place. The chosen drone would be female, taken young. She would be just old enough for the ego to be in place but still malleable, ready to take the shape of Borg. She would be assimilated in a way designed to break all old familial ties. She would be programmed in a particular type of maturation chamber, receiving special implants designed to shape her into a protoqueen. When mature enough she would be set free. If she returned, if she gave herself freely back to the Borg, she would earn the position of worthy successor.

…

Argine(the “First Contact” Borg Queen) took great interest in a family from an unknown group, discovered within the shadow of a cube, apparently studying the Borg. A new species was always interesting but this one had a female child of the correct age and she quickly decided to acquire this child, to see if this species was capable of producing Queens.

She sent her drones to take the family and assimilate the adults immediately. The child was set apart for a short time to allow the adults to be fully integrated, and then the female was sent to assimilate her own child. She had died in the process, as had Argine’s own mother when she was assimilated. The practice assured the breaking of familial ties and allowed the child’s identity to be formed around being Borg. This circumstance was gratifying as it always produced the strongest Queens. Six year old Annika Hansen was placed in one of the special maturation chambers and her programming began.

Brit

 

[Anwar]

They mentioned something about how Seven was a candidate for the Borg Queen down the line (I suppose she met some qualifications for the Queen program to house itself in her body) and this was why the current Queen host let VOY go so many times: To further enrich Seven to the point that when she was Queen Host the Queen program would be able to use her individual experiences.

 

[Tachyon]

I rather like that "theory". It makes Dark Frontier much more watchable episode for me.

 

[MikeS]

Nice theory. I like it.

 

[Brit]

I rather like that "theory". It makes Dark Frontier much more watchable episode for me.

Did you ever notice how the Queen was always touching Seven in "Dark Frontier". It makes it seem that there was a connection there, one that "Ragnel" remembered but Annika did not.

I did give each Queen a name, the "First Contact" queen is Argine, the "Scorpion" to "Unimatrix Zero" Queen is Ragnel, and the "Endgame" Queen is Pallas.

Brit

 

[Akiraprise]

I always thought Seven was being groomed to be the future Queen as well. The Borg could have assimilated Voyager any time they wanted, yet they did not. This was so that Seven could learn and experience new things to one day enrich the collective when she joined the Borg again. The Queen pretty much told her this in Dark Frontier.

Borg Queen: "Spoken like a true individual. The last two years must have been a remarkable experience. You are unique."
Seven: "My experience will add to your perfection."
Borg Queen: "Yes."
Seven: "That is why you removed me from Voyager."
Borg Queen: "That is why we put you there in the first place. You believe that Voyager liberated you from the Collective. Did you really think we would surrender you so easily?"

 

[es!]

It's an interesting theorie. Indeed, Dark Frontier appears in a completely different light like this!

 

[The Boy Who Cried Worf]

So did Voyager establish that the Queens were different members of the collective who were transformed into the Queen? Doesn't that contradict Full Contact whee the Queen was a cyborg? Were there actually more than one Borg Queen?

 

[Tachyon]

Seven: "That is why you removed me from Voyager."
Borg Queen: "That is why we put you there in the first place. You believe that Voyager liberated you from the Collective. Did you really think we would surrender you so easily?"

These two lines, however, were the ultimate turn off for me. I can buy that Queen put Seven to work with Janeway in Scorpion, but intentionally let her to be severed from the collective? Naah... I don't think so. Not believable for me at all.

It would also be more logical for me to assume that there would be more than one queen candidates in the collective. So if one of them would be destroyed, there would still be others to choose from when the time comes. Therefore, being so fixated to one drone doesn't make much of a sense for me.

But like said - this theory still makes Dark Frontier more watchable for me.

Also if Seven was specially "wired" to be the next queen, it is interesting that the Queen did not notice her "aptitude" for unimatrix zero sooner.

Did you ever notice how the Queen was always touching Seven in "Dark Frontier". It makes it seem that there was a connection there, one that "Ragnel" remembered but Annika did not.

I have to say that I haven't watched Dark Frontier in a long time, so I cannot recall. Not to mention that I think I have watched the episode fully only once. I usually stop after 20 minutes or so when the "special drone" part begins. But the next time I will pay more attention to this.

 

[Akiraprise]

It would also be more logical for me to assume that there would be more than one queen candidates in the collective. So if one of them would be destroyed, there would still be others to choose from when the time comes. Therefore, being so fixated to one drone doesn't make much of a sense for me.

I would guess Seven was only one of a few different candidates. I'm sure she was not the only one the Queen was grooming. It's not like the Borg to have all of their eggs in one basket. Although if they sent more then one cube to Earth they could have assimilated it by now.

 

[SilentP]

Seven: "That is why you removed me from Voyager."
Borg Queen: "That is why we put you there in the first place. You believe that Voyager liberated you from the Collective. Did you really think we would surrender you so easily?"

These two lines, however, were the ultimate turn off for me. I can buy that Queen put Seven to work with Janeway in Scorpion, but intentionally let her to be severed from the collective? Naah... I don't think so. Not believable for me at all.

To be honest, I'd be disinclined to believe that the Queen was telling her the truth, and wouldn't put it past her to be putting little truths like this into her mind to trick Seven into believing that the Borg are that omniscient. Just a little theory to toss out there.

 

[Brit]

Seven: "That is why you removed me from Voyager."
Borg Queen: "That is why we put you there in the first place. You believe that Voyager liberated you from the Collective. Did you really think we would surrender you so easily?"

These two lines, however, were the ultimate turn off for me. I can buy that Queen put Seven to work with Janeway in Scorpion, but intentionally let her to be severed from the collective? Naah... I don't think so. Not believable for me at all.

To be honest, I'd be disinclined to believe that the Queen was telling her the truth, and wouldn't put it past her to be putting little truths like this into her mind to trick Seven into believing that the Borg are that omniscient. Just a little theory to toss out there.

Oh I defiantly think that a lot of the conversation between the Queen and Seven in “Dark Frontier” were lies. This conversation is a blatant lie and we know that it is.

SEVEN: Then you already possess all of my knowledge. What more do you want?

QUEEN: You are the only Borg that has ever returned to a state of individuality. We want to keep you exactly the way you are. Otherwise you would lose your human perspective. We don't want another drone. We want you.

Let’s see, there is Picard and there are the drones from the Voyager third season “Unity” who have been severed, the Queen also has maturity problems. She is the one drone that is allowed a personality, but that personality is also stunted and molded by Borg protocols. She orders, drones do not question they simply perform, no one has ever questioned her, no one has ever said no to her unless it would be the “Central Processor” that controls all. She would lie and assume all would believe her because no one has ever disbelieved her.

In “First Contact” Picard remembered that the Queen wanted a counterpart, another version of herself but he had to give himself to the Borg willingly. I actually think Seven had already done that, we saw her test of loyalty in “Survival Instinct.” She had came back willingly once, the Queen had no reason to believe she wouldn’t again.

This whole Queen story idea of mine, has been really interesting. I am trying to write it from the Queen’s point of view. Those of you that haven’t watched “Dark Frontier” in a while, I would encourage you to watch it again. But watch it with the notion that this Queen (Ragnel) wants Seven, just as surely as the other Queen (Argine) wanted Picard, and she would lie to Seven if it suited her purpose.

We know Picard killed Argine, but have you ever thought about what happened to Ragnel. It looked like she was killed at the end of “Dark Frontier” but we see her again in “Unimatrix Zero”. Then the next time we see the Queen, she is different. One wonders how forgiving the Central Processor is because at the end of “Unimatrix Zero” Ragnel had failed three times. Was she declared a failure and deactivated?

So did Voyager establish that the Queens were different members of the collective who were transformed into the Queen? Doesn't that contradict Full Contact whee the Queen was a cyborg? Were there actually more than one Borg Queen?

I think there was only one Queen at a time, I also think there were others programmed to take her place if the need arose, and yes she was cyborg.

From my story

The first thing she knew was silence, the voices whispering in unison through her mind gone, replaced by one seductive voice in the darkness.

“You, who were Six of Nine, Auxiliary Interpreter of Unimatrix zero-one, awake,” the one voice hummed deep and strangely metallic. Then it softened, but still echoed a mechanical click. “Open your new eyes Argine, and behold what you have become.”

Yes that fit, she had been Argine long ago before the Borg took her, and she opened her eyes. She found herself suspended on two conduits, the body of a drone on the floor. She knew it to be her own. Its head and shoulders were missing and in a strangely detached way she watched it disintegrate, the organic parts turning to liquid, the liquid spreading out sinking into the floor itself, leaving the metallic parts to be swept away, everything returning to a raw state.

“Who are you?” she asked thought her mouth never moved to form the words.

“I am the Borg, and you are now its Queen.” The voice whispered in her mind this time the mechanical quality lost as it held her enthralled. “I can give you pleasure, Argine.” And pleasure surged through a body she no longer possessed, but her mind remembered.

Finally what was left of her was seated into the artificial body of the Queen and the block in her mind lifted. Again the voices of billions of Borg filled her mind, only this time in supplication, this time needing the direction that only the one who speaks could give. She sensed the great power of the Collective, the Power that she alone could direct and she embraced it as if holding a lover close for the first time.

By the way you are reading unbelted stuff, the story isn’t finished, I do promise to post the whole thing when I get through. I’m hoping for a couple of weeks. Your ideas and comments are helping a lot. I am very lucky from a writing standpoint. My daughter loves Trek as much as I do and I can simply say “What if” to her and we are off running.

Brit

 

[Anwar]

Uh, did the Queen forget about Hugh and his group of Borg? They looked pretty independent.

 

[Crewman47]

Sorry if was already mentioned but you gave different names to the Queen in First Contact and the one in Endgame but yet they were played by the same person. I thought it was theorised at one time that the Queen in Endgame was a clone of the one in First Contact and the one played by Susanna Thompson was a temporary replacement or something like that?

What is your theory on why these two Queens look the same?

 

[SilentP]

What is your theory on why these two Queens look the same?

Perhaps with all the billions of drones that the Collective has access to, that the likeliness of two drones looking the same (especially after you remove any variation due to hair colour or skin tone) isn't 'that' low, though it does push the realms of believability that two should look exactly the like and both serve the same function within the Collective.

Perhaps they happened to be biological twins, so that when they were assimilated, they were both indentified as being potential Queens?

 

[Brit]

Sorry if was already mentioned but you gave different names to the Queen in First Contact and the one in Endgame but yet they were played by the same person. I thought it was theorised at one time that the Queen in Endgame was a clone of the one in First Contact and the one played by Susanna Thompson was a temporary replacement or something like that?

What is your theory on why these two Queens look the same?

They are from the same species, but are not the same person. I had toyed with the idea that they were biological sisters, but I decided against it because I made Argine quite a bit older than Pallas. The other detail that I made up was that the "First Contact" Queen and the "Endgame" Queen came from a more recently assimilated species, while we know that The "Scorpion" to "Unimatrix Zero" queen is species 125 and could have been taken with maybe some of the last free individuals from that species.

Brit

 

[Guy Gardener]

"Here we are, born to be Borg
We're the princesses of the universe
Here we belong, fighting to survive
In a world with the darkest powers, heh
And here we are, we're the princesses of the universe
Here we belong, fighting for survival
We've come to be the rulers of you all

I am immortal, I have inside me blood of Borg - yeah - yeah
I have no rival, no man can be my equal
Take me to the future of you all..."

With apologies to Freddie and the gang

 

[Anwar]

And like I said, why didn't anyone mention Hugh and his ENTIRE CUBE of Borg? They all got to be individuals.

 

[SilentP]

And like I said, why didn't anyone mention Hugh and his ENTIRE CUBE of Borg? They all got to be individuals.

Because the possibility of an entire cube of drones going AWOL would be an embarassment that the Borg wouldn't want to advertise/acknowledge. Makes the Borg seems less 'implaccable' and they wouldn't want that, since any image of weakness breeds more 'resistance' that they probably don't want anway.

 

[Brit]

And like I said, why didn't anyone mention Hugh and his ENTIRE CUBE of Borg? They all got to be individuals.

When you look at how many we saw freed, you can only wonder how many others there were we don't know about too. Like I said that was an obvious lie. While I think the Queen did send Seven as a trusted lieutenant to handle Voyager in "Scorpion," I don't think she had any idea that she would lose Seven in the process like she did.

It's a pretty easy step when you remember that to be the Queen's counterpart Picard had to give himself freely to her, to conclude that all Queens had to give themselves freely to the Borg. Ragnel couldn't just assimilate Seven she had to seduce her to the point that she would ask to be reassimilated.

Brit