Size Of The New Enterprise (large images)

[Silversmok3]

Yet a 700+ meter ship is fundamentally broken as well, as it totally destroys all notion of starship design lineage and does not at all work next to the other ships of the fleet seen in the spacedock scene, which were clearly from the Kelvin-era before the new timeline was created. Are you suggesting that ships from a generation before TOS were typically the size of a Galaxy-class, and that in the prime universe the next generation of ships were scaled down dramatically for some mysterious reason, only to grow steadily larger over the next 100 years?

Come ON. With a 366-meter ship the shuttlebay and maybe the engine room don't fit within the ship. With a 700+ meter ship the ship itself doesn't fit within the universe. A starfleet ship that big during that era is pure fanwankery (a notion backed up by all the -ing going on in this thread) and reeks of starship penis envy - fanboys jealous that other series and films have far more massive hero ships than Star Trek.

We're all (or nearly all) on board with this being an alternate (or completely different) existance. Why must it follow that Galaxy-class vessels of this reality by significantly larger than their Constitution-class predecessors? Big whoop.

Could someone please put this thread out of its misery?

It is an alternate reality that branched off the primary Star Trek universe. There is no logical excuse whatsoever for the size of 23rd century starship increasing by that kind of factor. It doesn't fit, doesn't make sense. 366 meters is perfectly fine. 700 throws everything else completely out of whack.

Assumptive fallacy does not equal logic. Divorced from the events and timeline that led to the 366 meter starships existence, the Enterprise existing at all in an alternate timeline is a remarkable occurance, to say nothing of it being the same size!

On a personal note I fail to understand why accepting the new ship's size at 700 meters give or take is so hard to do.It is an entirely different ship completely from the TOS version in every respect but name and class only,and a general resemblence in saucer and propulsion layout.

 

[dougkeenan]

99 bottled-up posts on the wall, 99 bottled-up posts ...

 

[JuanBolio]

We're all (or nearly all) on board with this being an alternate (or completely different) existance. Why must it follow that Galaxy-class vessels of this reality by significantly larger than their Constitution-class predecessors? Big whoop.

Could someone please put this thread out of its misery?

It is an alternate reality that branched off the primary Star Trek universe. There is no logical excuse whatsoever for the size of 23rd century starship increasing by that kind of factor. It doesn't fit, doesn't make sense. 366 meters is perfectly fine. 700 throws everything else completely out of whack.

Assumptive fallacy does not equal logic. Divorced from the events and timeline that led to the 366 meter starships existence, the Enterprise existing at all in an alternate timeline is a remarkable occurance, to say nothing of it being the same size!

On a personal note I fail to understand why accepting the new ship's size at 700 meters give or take is so hard to do.It is an entirely different ship completely from the TOS version in every respect but name and class only,and a general resemblence in saucer and propulsion layout.

Accepting is is hard if not impossible simply because Starfleet did not build ships that big at that point in history. While this IS an alternate reality, I find it incredible and impossible to accept that Starfleet massively scaled up its starships for no good reason while keeping the proportions (windows, airlocks, etc) the same as on their ships in the prime timeline.

I have no problem with the ship being a little different, but being more than twice as long and several times as large in overall volume is absurd, and reeks of pure fanwank and starship penis envy, as I've said before. Suddenly constructing a ship that big does not fit with the ships that came before the timeline shifted, nor with anything that would've come after. It fucks up ALL of Starfleet design history.

Plus its just absurdly huge for the sake of being absurdly huge. Such a ship isn't necessary. 366 meters, if you please.

 

[SonicRanger]

Accepting is hard if not impossible simply because Starfleet did not build ships that big at that point in history...

That's your assumption. We've never seen a starship that we built between the 2200s and 2230s before.

... and reeks of starship penis envy...

... reeks of pure fanwank and starship penis envy, as I've said before.

Dr Freud would like to speak with you about your obsession with penis envy.

 

[buzzknox]

Design is always driven (to one degree or another) by needs. The NuStar Fleet had the need to deal with a ship that was kilometers in size, could take out a starship with relative ease, seems to be affiliated with the Romulan Star Empire, and was still out there. The prime Star Fleet did not have this need. So, the design is different from that basis alone, because the threat is different. The "old" Constitution design specs would likely have been scrapped in order to deal with the observed threat, and the tech would have been pushed beyond bleeding edge so that any ship that encountered the threat would have a chance. So, the Constitution gets redesigned and delayed, resulting in the observed differences in the Constitution's appearance and history.

 

[Silversmok3]

It is an alternate reality that branched off the primary Star Trek universe. There is no logical excuse whatsoever for the size of 23rd century starship increasing by that kind of factor. It doesn't fit, doesn't make sense. 366 meters is perfectly fine. 700 throws everything else completely out of whack.

Assumptive fallacy does not equal logic. Divorced from the events and timeline that led to the 366 meter starships existence, the Enterprise existing at all in an alternate timeline is a remarkable occurance, to say nothing of it being the same size!

On a personal note I fail to understand why accepting the new ship's size at 700 meters give or take is so hard to do.It is an entirely different ship completely from the TOS version in every respect but name and class only,and a general resemblence in saucer and propulsion layout.

Accepting is is hard if not impossible simply because Starfleet did not build ships that big at that point in history. While this IS an alternate reality, I find it incredible and impossible to accept that Starfleet massively scaled up its starships for no good reason while keeping the proportions (windows, airlocks, etc) the same as on their ships in the prime timeline.

I have no problem with the ship being a little different, but being more than twice as long and several times as large in overall volume is absurd, and reeks of pure fanwank and starship penis envy, as I've said before. Suddenly constructing a ship that big does not fit with the ships that came before the timeline shifted, nor with anything that would've come after. It fucks up ALL of Starfleet design history.

Plus its just absurdly huge for the sake of being absurdly huge. Such a ship isn't necessary. 366 meters, if you please.

Timeline changes from bad guys blowing up starships in the past fuck up a lot of things, Starfleet design philosophy being one of them.

Picture the TOS Enterprise going against the Narada.Wanna place bets?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

A refresher for people with common sense: While it’s understandable that the ship was designed at 366 meters and scaled up, the fact is it was scaled up for a very good reason. A 366 meter Enterprise wouldn’t fit the shuttles or the brewery and thus is fundamentally broken, whether it looks nicer on a size-comparison chart or not.
Please respond by posting dozens more of those near-identical size comparison charts ;-)

Yet a 700+ meter ship is fundamentally broken as well, as it totally destroys all notion of starship design lineage and does not at all work next to the other ships of the fleet seen in the spacedock scene, which were clearly from the Kelvin-era before the new timeline was created.

First of all, we don't KNOW the design lineage of the Enterprise, so that's a non-starter. For all we know the Constitutions of the new universe are based on a 650 meter colony support ship that was deemed too wimpy for Starfleet service without extensive redesign. Second of all, we don't know how big the Kelvin was, nor do we really know how big the other ships of the fleet were, and there's reason to believe most of those ships were of similar size to the Enterprise (in which case they were probably much larger than the Kelvin).

Are you suggesting that ships from a generation before TOS were typically the size of a Galaxy-class and that in the prime universe the next generation of ships were scaled down dramatically for some mysterious reason, only to grow steadily larger over the next 100 years?

Why not? HMS Dreadnought (built in 1906) is about the same size as a modern Aegis cruiser, and a B-17 Flying Fortress is similar in size to an F/A-18 Hornet.

Besides, the Galaxy Class doesn't exist in the new unvierse yet; we have NO IDEA what the 24th century ships will end up looking like.

Come ON. With a 366-meter ship the shuttlebay and maybe the engine room don't fit within the ship. With a 700+ meter ship the ship itself doesn't fit within the universe.

Correction: it doesn't fit in the PRIME universe. It's not it, though, so I don't really see a problem.

 

[Peter the Younger]

The problem with pinning so much on the original timeline's design lineage is that Trek has never been all that consistent in this regard. Paging through any part of EAS (not the rant about the new ship, I'm talking the regular catalog of ships), you can find dozens of examples of re-used models that couldn't possibly have been built at the same time or place, model details that suggest crews of midgets or giants, and of course the numerous ships introduced in ENT (including the 600m + Vulcan cruiser.) On top of that, there have been enough temporal incusions, temporal cold wars, and plain old retcons to justify just about anything. Yes, the Enterprise design lineage is supposed to be special, but there are just as many flubs and changes there (the amazing resizing shuttlebay!) I can understand the preference for the smaller figure for nostalgia reasons, but it's not like this sort of thing is new to Trek.

 

[JuanBolio]

Correction: it doesn't fit in the PRIME universe. It's not it, though, so I don't really see a problem.

...yet this universe branches off the prime universe in 2233. Up until then everything was hunky-dory and starship evolution was going as it had before. Now all of a sudden they make a Constitution-class ship several times as large as it would've been otherwise? Sorry. Does not fit.

As for the Kelvin and the other ships seen in the spacedock scene, they'd all have to be significantly larger than the original Enterprise as well if the new ship is 700 meters long or more, which raises the question of why, in the prime timeline, Stafleet would suddenly decide to scale back its ships by half.

Its just poorly thought-out scaling, and you're all making excuses for it.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Accepting is is hard if not impossible simply because Starfleet did not build ships that big at that point in history.

That, Juan, is an ASSUMPTION. We don't know that Starfleet built small ships at that time, we only know that Starfleet built a small ENTERPRISE. You know good and damn well that for the entirety of TOS we never saw ANY starships that weren't Constitution class; even in the entirety of the TOS movies we got to see a grand total of six starships that weren't Enterprise, and four of them were of the same class.

So your assumption is not supported logically; the possibility remains that the ship that new universe calls "Enterprise" was originally built, in the prime universe, as "USS Trip Tucker," a deep space exploration cruiser named after Admiral George Kirk's childhood hero. Again: since we do not know the design lineage of EITHER vessel, we do not even know that they are the same class of ship.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Correction: it doesn't fit in the PRIME universe. It's not it, though, so I don't really see a problem.

...yet this universe branches off the prime universe in 2233. Up until then everything was hunky-dory and starship evolution was going as it had before.

Which is irrelevant, because we don't know ANYTHING about what that evolution was or how it played it. As I said in another thread: this ship may have existed under a different name even in the Prime universe without ever appearing on screen.

Now all of a sudden they make a Constitution-class ship several times as large...

How do you know the new Enterprise IS Constitution-class?

As for the Kelvin and the other ships seen in the spacedock scene, they'd all have to be significantly larger than the original Enterprise as well if the new ship is 700 meters long or more, which raises the question of why, in the prime timeline, Stafleet would suddenly decide to scale back its ships by half.

Who says they did? In the prime timeline we only ever saw Constitution class ships until TWOK. Interestingly enough, with the exception of the Constitution class, ALL of the ship designs we saw in the TMP era were still in use a hundred years later, at a time when Starfleet was definitely building enormous starships. What if the reason Starfleet kept the Mirandas and Excelsiors around is because those smaller designs had proven themselves as able support vessels for larger front-line designs?

Its just poorly thought-out scaling, and you're all making excuses for it.

Trek fans have been making excuses for poor scaling decisions for generations, we're not about to stop now.

 

[JuanBolio]

The fact that they radically scaled it up to fix a mistake with shuttle scaling and the engineering set proves that they were not originally shooting for a ship that large. The 700+ meter size is a mistake brought on by what they thought was necessity. It should be ignored, not embraced.

 

[Silversmok3]

Correction: it doesn't fit in the PRIME universe. It's not it, though, so I don't really see a problem.

which raises the question of why, in the prime timeline, Stafleet would suddenly decide to scale back its ships by half.

Its just poorly thought-out scaling, and you're all making excuses for it.

Heres your answer:In the prime timeline, a 5 mile long Romulan ship didnt travel back in time and destroy the USS Kelvin.

Nu Enterprise a victim of poor scaling? It wouldnt be Trek without it....

 

[Gepard]

The new Enterprise is 12.3739 feet long because I stamp my foot and say so.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The fact that they radically scaled it up to fix a mistake with shuttle scaling and the engineering set proves that they were not originally shooting for a ship that large. The 700+ meter size is a mistake brought on by what they thought was necessity. It should be ignored, not embraced.

Except then you would have to ignore the shuttlebay, the engine room, and even the bridge (especially the windows). There's no reason TO ignore all of this except for a rather childish desire to pretend this ship is just a slightly modified TOS vessel, which it mostly definitely isn't. It's a totally new Enterprise with a totally different design; as such, it is a totally different size.

 

[DiSiLLUSiON]

The fact that they radically scaled it up to fix a mistake with shuttle scaling and the engineering set proves that they were not originally shooting for a ship that large. The 700+ meter size is a mistake brought on by what they thought was necessity. It should be ignored, not embraced.

So now it's suddenly a matter of principle?

No, it should not be ignored. It is what is is, and no different. If it's 300m, fine. But it isn't. If it's 5km, fine. But it isn't. It's 700m. So that's also fine. No biggie.

 

[Gonzo]

Many seem to choke on the 700m size of the new Enterprise 1701, the Narada went back and screwed up the timeline. It has been said that this new film is in same chronology as the Enterprise Series with Archer... if you remember he found the Borg remains in one episode maybe Starfleet had already started changing due to that.

The Kelvin is a good example of that, it has a crew complement of 800 which is twice what the Enterprise of TOS had, and it is only a Survey ship. Plus it had a large complement of shuttles an escape craft as it would need loads to evacuate and save 800 crew. Which we know happens as Pike himself says so.

We have Archers Enterprise Series then we have the new Star Trek film... ANYTHING could have happened in the time between (100yrs or so).

Everything after the Enterprise TV series is now null and void in this reality, JJ and the script writers can do pretty much what they want.

Some have produced lavish diagrams and pictures to try and show the ship to be smaller... with no success.

Even with all the evidence supporting 700m certain individuals will continue to whinge about the new larger size even though there is nothing they can do about it.

It is 2400ft long deal with it people and move on.

Mark

P.S Just ignore them Disillusion they seem to think the Enterprise belongs to them lol.... they don't make the decisions.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

^ There is that, plus the fact that this new timeline actually begins with First Contact where Zephram Cochrane actually got a close up look at the Enterprise-E (and it even fired some torpedoes at him). It also can't be understated that Cochrane's sidekick Lilly spent several days ABOARD the Enterprise; that's gotta leaves some ripples SOMEWHERE in the timeline.

It also occurs to me that if the NuEnterprise looked EXACTLY LIKE THE ORIGINAL at 700 meters, then we'd have reason to be annoyed; it would be like those damned Apache-Chief Klingon Bird of Preys that can be the size of scoutships one moment and bigger than Enterprise the next. In Yesterday's Enterprise, for example, you can either pretend the Bird of Preys are actually the small variety (which doesn't work very well considering how much ass they were kicking) or mentally substitute them for Vorchas or something. You don't have to do anything like that for the NuEnterprise, because it's already been substituted with an entirely different design.

 

[JuanBolio]

^ There is that, plus the fact that this new timeline actually begins with First Contact where Zephram Cochrane actually got a close up look at the Enterprise-E (and it even fired some torpedoes at him). It also can't be understated that Cochrane's sidekick Lilly spent several days ABOARD the Enterprise; that's gotta leaves some ripples SOMEWHERE in the timeline.

It also occurs to me that if the NuEnterprise looked EXACTLY LIKE THE ORIGINAL at 700 meters, then we'd have reason to be annoyed; it would be like those damned Apache-Chief Klingon Bird of Preys that can be the size of scoutships one moment and bigger than Enterprise the next. In Yesterday's Enterprise, for example, you can either pretend the Bird of Preys are actually the small variety (which doesn't work very well considering how much ass they were kicking) or mentally substitute them for Vorchas or something. You don't have to do anything like that for the NuEnterprise, because it's already been substituted with an entirely different design.

...one that is inconsistent with both itself and everything else.

 

[Mangledduk]

Honestly guys, every argument we've had on here for both sides is based on an assumption. We have quotes saying all different kinds of sizes, shots from the movie suggesting different sizes and nothing completely "Official" yet. Why is this still an argument? Like I said before if you go by the definition of "Canon" being what was shown on screen, the ship is both 366 meters and 700 + meters, lol

Lets predict the next couple of posts shall we...

"I'm right because..."
"No, I'm right because...."
"NOOO, I'm right because..."
"You have a good point, but I'm right because"
"Well this quote proves I'm right because..."
"Well on screen evidence and detailed analysis shows I'm right because..."
"That isnt valid, this quote proves Im right because..."