Worst Episode Not Involving Lizard Babies
- Thread starter Triskelion
- Start date
I don't see much, if any resemblance between those characters.
They may have stolen some ideas when they did "Fury" but their one and only purpose with "Fury" was not to create some "super-character" but to ruin, humiliate, destroy and finally kill off the character.
You have me confused here. Where did I say she would turn bad? In my scenario she ultimately would have been good but her great powers would have caused some drama. As for her death it was established from the beginning that her lifespan was nine years. In human terms that doesn't seem like a lot but to an Ocampan that's well, a lifetime.
You know, "Threshold" wasn't necessarily all that bad. I mean, I appreciated it for the scientific part-the part where Paris tries to go beyond the Warp 10 barrier. Just the way it was carried out sucked.
At first, I didn't think that "The Fight" was all that bad either. Then I re-watched it again later on thinking: oh dear lord. That trimetric fracture thingy is a tongue-twister in itself!
Another bad episode was: "Nightingale". It bored me to tears. And even though I watch this episode RELIGOUSLY at times, "Unforgettable" kinda stunk as well.
I don't get why some posters here think "Body and Soul" and "The Q and the Grey" were bad. I happened to love both of those episodes..they cracked me up at times as well!
But to each his own I guess.
At first, I didn't think that "The Fight" was all that bad either. Then I re-watched it again later on thinking: oh dear lord. That trimetric fracture thingy is a tongue-twister in itself!
Another bad episode was: "Nightingale". It bored me to tears. And even though I watch this episode RELIGOUSLY at times, "Unforgettable" kinda stunk as well.I don't get why some posters here think "Body and Soul" and "The Q and the Grey" were bad. I happened to love both of those episodes..they cracked me up at times as well!
But to each his own I guess.
Well, maybe my confusion here has something to do with debating a similar issue on another website and the fact that so many people seem to be coming up with "worst case scenarios" for the character. Am I the only one who can come up with positive scenarios, such as restoring the character to what she was in seasons 1-3 and give her an extended lifespan as well?
And by the way, don't take my "suggestions" for the other characters too seriously. You know that I love them too and you know my opinion about character destruction and the current "Janeway case".
What might have confused me was your reply to the "Kes as bada**" comment. I got the impression that this "bada** character" would has been as crazy as the "Kes" we saw in "Fury", maybe a little more on the good side.
However, I still see no reason to change Kes in that direction since we already had two such characters in Torres and Seven when it comes to temper and behavior. They could more easily have been turned into similar "bada** characters".
One of the points with Kes was that she in many ways was a contrast to more traditional female action characters, still she had strength, courage and determination and she could use that to save the ship, like she did in "Cold Fire" and "Persistence Of Vision", episodes where she used her powers too. Note that her powers in those episodes were more normal, not ridiculously exaggerated as in "The Gift" and "Fury".
As for the Ocampa lifespan, it was a mistake from the writers which could have been corrected.
I would have to go with two of them. I'm into S7 right now so they are both pretty recent.
"Good Shepherd" in S6... I like that the captain was reaching out but it was just a dumb episode. I felt seasons 6 and 7 were very little about the overall plot and felt each episode had a plot of itself. While this is necessary there wasn't enough about them getting home and about the characters growth. Maybe that's it. Maybe I felt the characters weren't growing anymore. They had kind of leveled off.
Second is "Fury" also in S6... While some may have liked this because of Kes. I felt it lacked good plot. It ended with a super angry Kes all the sudden giving up and telling the captain she was right and heading home.
"Good Shepherd" in S6... I like that the captain was reaching out but it was just a dumb episode. I felt seasons 6 and 7 were very little about the overall plot and felt each episode had a plot of itself. While this is necessary there wasn't enough about them getting home and about the characters growth. Maybe that's it. Maybe I felt the characters weren't growing anymore. They had kind of leveled off.
Second is "Fury" also in S6... While some may have liked this because of Kes. I felt it lacked good plot. It ended with a super angry Kes all the sudden giving up and telling the captain she was right and heading home.
Actually I said badass hero. An important distinction.
What are you referring too?
I forgot to mention Spirit Folk and, of course, Fair Haven.
No, no, and no.
Why couldn't they give us two Vaadwaur episodes, for intance, instead of these two crappy ones. This Irish village holodeck scenario was terrible. I put it in the same category with DS9's mirror universe episodes, which were the lowest point of DS9, like these were the lowest point of VOY.
No, no, and no.
Why couldn't they give us two Vaadwaur episodes, for intance, instead of these two crappy ones. This Irish village holodeck scenario was terrible. I put it in the same category with DS9's mirror universe episodes, which were the lowest point of DS9, like these were the lowest point of VOY.
Actually I said badass hero. An important distinction.
My mistake and I apologize for the misunderstanding. As I mentioned in a previous post, I've had a similar debate on another forum which may have affected my ways of thinking and seeing things.
Anyway, I'm not sure about a "Warlord" type Kes either even if she's on the good side.
However, I don't rule out some more action for the character, her being involved in dangerous situations but in that case I would rather see her use her wit and the rather limited powers she had in "Cold Fre" and "Persistence Of Vision" than the too exaggerated powers which were showed up in "The Gift" and "Fury".
Which is exactly what I come up with in my own stories!
Unimatrix 01 Wrote:
If I didn't feel so disgusted with that episode, I would try to re-watch it and come up with a long list of all flaws and contradictions in it. There were so many things that didn't make sense at all.
The main point is that she was so out of character. First showing up as the worst type of lunatic and at the end she turns into a pathetic wreck who wanted to go back to a drab planet she happily left many years ago.
Where is the real Kes? The nice, friendly happy Kes who loved to be on Voyager and wanted to learn and explore. I can't find anything of that character in that horrible episode.
Not to mention that the original plan was to kill off the character at the end.
Well, maybe my confusion here has something to do with debating a similar issue on another website and the fact that so many people seem to be coming up with "worst case scenarios" for the character. Am I the only one who can come up with positive scenarios, such as restoring the character to what she was in seasons 1-3 and give her an extended lifespan as well?
And by the way, don't take my "suggestions" for the other characters too seriously. You know that I love them too and you know my opinion about character destruction and the current "Janeway case".
What might have confused me was your reply to the "Kes as bada**" comment. I got the impression that this "bada** character" would has been as crazy as the "Kes" we saw in "Fury", maybe a little more on the good side.
However, I still see no reason to change Kes in that direction since we already had two such characters in Torres and Seven when it comes to temper and behavior. They could more easily have been turned into similar "bada** characters".
One of the points with Kes was that she in many ways was a contrast to more traditional female action characters, still she had strength, courage and determination and she could use that to save the ship, like she did in "Cold Fire" and "Persistence Of Vision", episodes where she used her powers too. Note that her powers in those episodes were more normal, not ridiculously exaggerated as in "The Gift" and "Fury".
As for the Ocampa lifespan, it was a mistake from the writers which could have been corrected.
One of the nice things about Kes is not only was she accepting of others just as they were but she was also accepting of herself just as she was - something I'm sure you'd agree most folks have a problem doing. Sure, a nine-year lifespan is a tragedy from a human point of view. To an Ocampan like Kes though it would seem quite normal.
Agism is something that is very much with us and this would have been a chance for Trek to explore the issues surrounding it. Also, when Kes left the ship there were bulkheads blowing up all around her. Her increased age and powers were bound to create some dramatic tension. That's pretty much where I was going...
What's wrong with Fair Haven (the village)? I kinda liked the setting.
Darkling.
Threshold is the worst. The Fight would be my number 2. Vis a vis would be 3.
One episode that is really good that is never talked about is Jetrel from Season 1. That episode would make my top 10 for sure.
^^
"Jetrel" is among my top 20. Actually an example of a good, touching story. Not to mention how Neelix's tragic background was revealed.Suddenly the character had another depth than being just the comic guy in the set.
The interaction between Neelix and Jetrel is touching and interesting at the same time. Great episode!
As for "second worst episode", if I do find "Fury" the definitive crap episode of the show, the second prize goes to "The Gift". Thin, unconvincing, badly written story made with the only purpose to get rid of a main character as soon as possible.
"Jetrel" is among my top 20. Actually an example of a good, touching story. Not to mention how Neelix's tragic background was revealed.Suddenly the character had another depth than being just the comic guy in the set.
The interaction between Neelix and Jetrel is touching and interesting at the same time. Great episode!
As for "second worst episode", if I do find "Fury" the definitive crap episode of the show, the second prize goes to "The Gift". Thin, unconvincing, badly written story made with the only purpose to get rid of a main character as soon as possible.
Character death works allot quicker, ask any Jadzia Dax fan. One of them being me. Wronger than Kes in "Fury" was that Jadzia got truly replaced by Ezri. Ezri, the whiney little snot that could never replace the wild yet wise Jadzia. Seven didn't replace Kes, Jadzia got replaced. "Fury" was one ep., Jadzia fans had to endure a year of Ezri.
Sorry Kes left but so what, she's ALIVE!!! Tasha Yar, Jadzia Dax. Both main characters, both written off quickly, pointlessly and both will never return to Trek EVER! Allow me to repeat, Kes is ALIVE!!!!
Talk all you want about B&B and their mistakes, Ira wasn't perfect either.
I totally agree with your comments about Tasha Yar and Jadzia Dax. terrible examples of character destruction. OK, I understand that both actresses wanted to quit and that was thr reason for writing off the characters but was it necessary to kill them off.
I also question the reason to bring in Ezri with only one season left. I have nothing against Ezri but they shouldn't have had that Dax connection. She should have been a character of her own.
As for Kes, yes I will also join you here: Kes is ALIVE! I know that.
And not some ruined "Fury Kes" but the REAL Kes!
http://lynx677.110mb.com/Kesstories.html
"So Kes is back, where she belongs
and the Kes fans can't be wrong
just as long as we sing this song, we're smiling in tune!"
"Smiling In Tune"
Small Faces
(lyrics slightly altered by Lynx)
So see, even if you don't like "The Gift" or "Fury" because she had to leave, she still remains alive within the Trek universe. Believe it or not, in the end Kes fans still win.
I totally agree with your comments about Tasha Yar and Jadzia Dax. terrible examples of character destruction. OK, I understand that both actresses wanted to quit and that was thr reason for writing off the characters but was it necessary to kill them off.
I also question the reason to bring in Ezri with only one season left. I have nothing against Ezri but they shouldn't have had that Dax connection. She should have been a character of her own.
As for Kes, yes I will also join you here: Kes is ALIVE! I know that.
And not some ruined "Fury Kes" but the REAL Kes!
http://lynx677.110mb.com/Kesstories.html
"So Kes is back, where she belongs
and the Kes fans can't be wrong
just as long as we sing this song, we're smiling in tune!"
"Smiling In Tune"
Small Faces
(lyrics slightly altered by Lynx)
Dammit man, look on the bright side once in a while!!
Jetrel was terrible. The guy invented a device that killed 400,000 talaxians...if one photon torpedo was detonated in San-Francisco how many millions of people would be killed?
He also did it to protect his race. We learn in the episode that Neelix didn't fight in the war because he disagreed with how aggressive Talax was being. Hmm wonder why Jetrel may have felt motivated to create a weapon to counter aggressors. The writing was terrible, from the get go we are only allowed to think Jetrel = Bad Guy...no wiggle room. Star Trek is at its best when it isn't ramming down our throats what we should think...
