Who are the Romulans?

[Sci]

The Romulans have always reminded me of the Chinese, with their closed, secretive society as well as their almost irrational paranoia.

There's nothing irrational about Chinese paranoia. They were the biggest superpower in the world, and the dominant power in Asia, for centuries, and then suddenly a bunch of European countries that were little more than backwater provinces just a few centuries before come out of nowhere, overpower China, and divide it up amongst themselves. And then, after that, Japan starts doing the same thing.

You'd be paranoid too if your country had a history like that!

 

[Temis the Vorta]

NAZIs, Green Supremacists. Their core belief is racial purity and superiority to all others.

But I've never seen that even hinted at in the movies.

Maybe not in the movies, but I've somehow gotten the same impression as you, and not generally from novels because I haven't read more than a couple.

The key to the Romulans lies in their past - they are afflicted with a superiority/inferiority complex vis a vis Vulcans because they simultaneously believe that their rejection of Surak is the better path but are afflicted with doubts as long as the Vulcans exist and have a functional society. Since Vulcans' mere existence is a rebuke to them, the Romulans are driven to respond with hostility and attempt to either destroy or re-absorb Vulcan society.

Other races such as humans get into this tussel via being Vulcans' allies. Allying yourself with Vulcans is an endorsement of a sort and therefore also a rebuke to Romulans. If Romulans were "mere" racists, they wouldn't be as interesting as if their attitudes are unique to their specific history. And knowing their neurosis is inherent in their society means that there's no easy way for them to 'reform' and therefore keeps this locked in as a source of dramatic conflict.

We do need all this to be very well spelled out in some future movie or TV series, though. I've gleaned this through inference, and it not only needs to be clarified for the sake of the fans, but could also be the basis for good Rommie-centric drama, particularly given the events of Trek XI.

In TOS, Mark Lenard's Romulan commander is the one who said in another life he could have called Kirk a friend. He was heroic and honorable.

Calling Rommies racist is probably too strong a word, and yeah I can ironically see Rommies getting along better with humans or other races vs. Vulcans. It's really the Vulcans that push their buttons.

 

[TK421]

No, they really don't, and trying to reduce an alien culture to a single concept only creates shallow caricatures and stereotypes instead of fully three-dimensional cultures and characters.

Let me see if I can make myself clearer. I'm really talking about archetypes when I say "one word."

Kirk, Spock and McCoy are archetypes in and of themselves. They were designed that way.

And all stories can be broken down into archetypes. Love and Revenge, for example.

The complexity and nuance is then placed over the archetype.

Simplistic it is, but that's the way story telling has worked for the passed 7,000 years and I doubt it's going to change anytime soon.

Archetypes are what people tend to identify with. It's the core trait.

 

[TK421]

NAZIs, Green Supremacists. Their core belief is racial purity and superiority to all others.

But I've never seen that even hinted at in the movies.

Maybe not in the movies, but I've somehow gotten the same impression as you, and not generally from novels because I haven't read more than a couple.

The key to the Romulans lies in their past - they are afflicted with a superiority/inferiority complex vis a vis Vulcans because they simultaneously believe that their rejection of Surak is the better path but are afflicted with doubts as long as the Vulcans exist and have a functional society. Since Vulcans' mere existence is a rebuke to them, the Romulans are driven to respond with hostility and attempt to either destroy or re-absorb Vulcan society.

Other races such as humans get into this tussel via being Vulcans' allies. Allying yourself with Vulcans is an endorsement of a sort and therefore also a rebuke to Romulans. If Romulans were "mere" racists, they wouldn't be as interesting as if their attitudes are unique to their specific history. And knowing their neurosis is inherent in their society means that there's no easy way for them to 'reform' and therefore keeps this locked in as a source of dramatic conflict.

We do need all this to be very well spelled out in some future movie or TV series, though. I've gleaned this through inference, and it not only needs to be clarified for the sake of the fans, but could also be the basis for good Rommie-centric drama, particularly given the events of Trek XI.

In TOS, Mark Lenard's Romulan commander is the one who said in another life he could have called Kirk a friend. He was heroic and honorable.

Calling Rommies racist is probably too strong a word, and yeah I can ironically see Rommies getting along better with humans or other races vs. Vulcans. It's really the Vulcans that push their buttons.

Yes! I'm right there with you.

A future movie really should cover this ground in some way. Perhaps the Romulans are so insecure, even with just a few thousand Vulcans left, their impulse still veers towards genocide.

 

[Sci]

Simplistic it is, but that's the way story telling has worked for the passed 7,000 years and I doubt it's going to change anytime soon.

It's a way, but it's not the way.

For instance, what's the archetype for the Cardassians? For Humans? What's the archetype for the Andorians? Bajorans?

You can look for one, but none will adequately sum up their species. Heck, even the ones you came up with aren't adequate -- the Klingons are far more than just warriors. If they were not, what would be the distinction between Klingons and Jem'Hadar and Hirgoen and Andorians? "Warrior" is part of them, but then, so its the idea of their being a feudal lordship, and so is the constant factionalism.

 

[TK421]

Simplistic it is, but that's the way story telling has worked for the passed 7,000 years and I doubt it's going to change anytime soon.

It's a way, but it's not the way.

For instance, what's the archetype for the Cardassians? For Humans? What's the archetype for the Andorians? Bajorans?

You can look for one, but none will adequately sum up their species. Heck, even the ones you came up with aren't adequate -- the Klingons are far more than just warriors. If they were not, what would be the distinction between Klingons and Jem'Hadar and Hirgoen and Andorians? "Warrior" is part of them, but then, so its the idea of their being a feudal lordship, and so is the constant factionalism.

Cardassian is easy: Sadists.
Bajorans: Masochists.
Andorians: Curmudgeons.


I see your point, but respectfully disagree.

 

[Sci]

Cardassian is easy: Sadists.

Sadism? Naaah. Garak wasn't a sadist -- he hated torturing Odo. Tain wasn't a sadist -- his goal was to know everything, not cause people pain. Damar wasn't a sadist -- he wanted what was best for Cardassia, that was all. Dukat was a sadist, but Dukat was not your typical Cardassian.

Bajorans: Masochists.

What on Earth makes you think the Bajorans are in any way masochistic?

Andorians: Curmudgeons.

Based on what, one character? There was nothing particularly curmudgeony about Shras, or Talas, or Jhamel.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I never liked that the Klingons and Romulans were flip-flopped from TOS to TNG. The Klingons had been the sneaky dis-honorable villians. TNG starts then all of a sudden the Klingons are honorable with a rich warrior culture- I have never bought that.

That's because the original premise for ST III had Romulans as the villains, but it was feared the general public would be confused that Saavik, Sarek, T'Lar and Spock looked exactly the same species as the analogues for Valkris and Kruge.

Note that Valkris accepts death calmly in the name of honor, and Kruge's ship has a cloaking device and is called a bird of prey. Because they were originally honorable Romulans.

 

[Jeri]

Well, that is an interesting bit of trivia; thanks.

 

[Silversmok3]

Indeed.

Id imagine that its gonna be somewhat hard to use Romulans as bad guys again, at least without explaining 'The Sundering' to some degree.

IMO,JJ got away with using Romulans as the bad guys because they were rogue operators, and he could charachterize them without having to also define Romulan society in the process.

 

[seigezunt]

Well, I have this theory about the Vulcans being the Jews, so the Romulans could be their evil xenophobic offshoot (Xians or Muslims, take your pick).

I know, save it for TNZ.

 

[TK421]

I never liked that the Klingons and Romulans were flip-flopped from TOS to TNG. The Klingons had been the sneaky dis-honorable villians. TNG starts then all of a sudden the Klingons are honorable with a rich warrior culture- I have never bought that.

That's because the original premise for ST III had Romulans as the villains, but it was feared the general public would be confused that Saavik, Sarek, T'Lar and Spock looked exactly the same species as the analogues for Valkris and Kruge.

Note that Valkris accepts death calmly in the name of honor, and Kruge's ship has a cloaking device and is called a bird of prey. Because they were originally honorable Romulans.

I never knew that. That makes a lot of sense.

 

[TK421]

Cardassian is easy: Sadists.

Sadism? Naaah. Garak wasn't a sadist -- he hated torturing Odo. Tain wasn't a sadist -- his goal was to know everything, not cause people pain. Damar wasn't a sadist -- he wanted what was best for Cardassia, that was all. Dukat was a sadist, but Dukat was not your typical Cardassian.

Gul Madred in Chain of Command was just misunderstood was he?

 

[Therin of Andor]

That's because the original premise for ST III had Romulans as the villains, but it was feared the general public would be confused that Saavik, Sarek, T'Lar and Spock looked exactly the same species as the analogues for Valkris and Kruge.

Note that Valkris accepts death calmly in the name of honor, and Kruge's ship has a cloaking device and is called a bird of prey. Because they were originally honorable Romulans.

Here's an old blog post of mine, regarding the next script revisions, when they'd become Klingons: Valkris's silver veil (barely glimpsed in the movie, but visible in numerous publicity shots - on her face and draped over her shoulders), and mention of Kruge's appearance and his stolen Romulan vessel.

They'd also added a character: vulcanoid defector, Galt (never specified as Romulan), who essentially fills the role taken by Maltz the Klingon in the final film. Galt is welcomed back to Vulcan by Sarek at the end of the movie.

http://therinofandor.blogspot.com/2006/12/on-sixth-day-of-christmas-while.html

 

[seigezunt]

you are a fount of Trek-knowledge, Therin.



Poor bastard.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

And all stories can be broken down into archetypes. Love and Revenge, for example.

Under that paradigm, I'd say Romulans = Vulcan envy.

They are, and should be, more complicated than that, but it's a good basis for starting to flesh them out.

Perhaps the Romulans are so insecure, even with just a few thousand Vulcans left, their impulse still veers towards genocide.

Or they sense that the time is right to move in for the kill. The one thing they wouldn't do, is respond in a pitying or charitable fashion. And even if they would, we don't want them to because it's so much more fun if they don't.

Well, I have this theory about the Vulcans being the Jews, so the Romulans could be their evil xenophobic offshoot (Xians or Muslims, take your pick).

Sorry, the Bajorans are already Jews. Or if you want to step on toes, the Ferengis are the Jews.

My take on the Vulcans and Romulans is that they were inspired by real world nations with Cold War divisions. The biggest parallel was Vulcans = Our China (Taiwan) and Rommies = Their China (Red China). The Klingons therefore were the Russkies. But you could also use Germany and Korea as the parallel, but the China parallel gets in the notion that "their" China is much larger and powerful, an empire in its own right, but "our" China needs to be part of a larger alliance for its own defence.

Culture-wise, the way the Vulcans were portrayed struck me as an interesting and off-kilter combo of Japanese and Jewish elements. Culturally the Romulans had some Far Eastern attributes but mainly were inspired by Ancient Rome.

And there's also the Vulcans = Athens vs Rommies = Rome paradigm. There are lots of resonances built into the dynamic, makes it very interesting and fun.

 

[Sci]

Cardassian is easy: Sadists.

Sadism? Naaah. Garak wasn't a sadist -- he hated torturing Odo. Tain wasn't a sadist -- his goal was to know everything, not cause people pain. Damar wasn't a sadist -- he wanted what was best for Cardassia, that was all. Dukat was a sadist, but Dukat was not your typical Cardassian.

Gul Madred in Chain of Command was just misunderstood was he?

Two people does not a species-wide trait make.

 

[DevilEyes]

Cardassian is easy: Sadists.

Sadism? Naaah. Garak wasn't a sadist -- he hated torturing Odo. Tain wasn't a sadist -- his goal was to know everything, not cause people pain. Damar wasn't a sadist -- he wanted what was best for Cardassia, that was all. Dukat was a sadist, but Dukat was not your typical Cardassian.

Gul Madred in Chain of Command was just misunderstood was he?

Gul Madred and Dukat are very different. Madred was a real sadist, but his behaviour was a result of his traumatic past. Dukat is a total narcissist above all else; you might say that he does have a sadistic streak, but not in the sense that he enjoys torturing people, rather that he just loooves power and dominance, which goes back to his narcissism, he just wants to win, to be the hero, to be adored by everyone. He's not a guy who'll enjoy torturing you and causing you pain, but he's the guy who'd set you up to be tortured so he can "rescue" you and show you what a nice guy he is. (This is not even a metaphor, based on Wrongs Darker Than Death or Night, I bet he was ordering his subordinates to harass women he liked so he could intervene and play his "rescuer of poor Bajoran women" act.) Unless, that is, you still fail to start loving him, then he'll hate you for your ungratefulness and really want to kill you or cause you pain.

There's really no one characteristic you can use to describe all Cardassians in Trek. Just think: Dukat, Garak, Damar, Madred, Macet, Enabran Tain, Tekeny Ghemor, Maritza, Natima Lang, Joret Dal, the 3 Cardassian scientists who appeared in an episode of DS9, Mila, Rusot, Broca, little Rugal, and so on. You just can't encapsulate all those people in one stereotype, or even archetype.

If there is one main characteristic of Bajorans as a society, it is that they are very religious and that faith means a lot to them. Which doesn't necessarily mean that every single Bajoran feels the same way about it.

 

[Praetor]

The best simplification I would do would be:

Romulans: Imperialists

But that isn't quite precise enough to quite capture the way I see it.

That's because the original premise for ST III had Romulans as the villains, but it was feared the general public would be confused that Saavik, Sarek, T'Lar and Spock looked exactly the same species as the analogues for Valkris and Kruge.

Note that Valkris accepts death calmly in the name of honor, and Kruge's ship has a cloaking device and is called a bird of prey. Because they were originally honorable Romulans.

Here's an old blog post of mine, regarding the next script revisions, when they'd become Klingons: Valkris's silver veil (barely glimpsed in the movie, but visible in numerous publicity shots - on her face and draped over her shoulders), and mention of Kruge's appearance and his stolen Romulan vessel.

They'd also added a character: vulcanoid defector, Galt (never specified as Romulan), who essentially fills the role taken by Maltz the Klingon in the final film. Galt is welcomed back to Vulcan by Sarek at the end of the movie.

http://therinofandor.blogspot.com/2006/12/on-sixth-day-of-christmas-while.html

That's awesome. Thank you!

 

[Sci]

The best simplification I would do would be:

Romulans: Imperialists

But that isn't quite precise enough to quite capture the way I see it.

I mean, really, "imperialists" describes most of the major powers in Star Trek -- Romulans, Cardassians, Klingons, Borg, Dominion, and, arguably, the Federation.