A Semi-Hater Revisits Voyager

[startrekwatcher]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^But it was never stated Defiant couldn't get new torpedoes. While Tuvok said "We've got 38 photon torpedoes and no way of replacing them."

That was way back in the first season. We've seen the crew stopping at outposts, encountering other aliens. Is it really that hard to believe they've bartered for them or that perhaps some of the Borg technology allowed for replication?

I personally didn't need an episode or throwaway line to clear it up. I figured it out. It wasn't until I came to the internet did I see so many irritated by it. I think it is a non-issue and Brannon was wise to not dwell on it. It isn't a glaring plot point that was overlooked. Now had Seven showed up pregnant in an episode and no effort was made to enlighten us on this then you can break out the pitch forks.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

It IS a glaring plot hole, givent they started out the series openly admitting that they had a finite supply and could not replace them - it's completely ignoring what's come before for no reason other than 'nah, we don't want to do that.' Again, just ONE line would have been enough to shut us up. It's not like we're asking them to make an episode devoted to them finding the available resources.

Yeah, there was an episode where they were looking at the wares of an arms dealer - all they needed to do was say in 'Retrospect' something like 'We've bought some torpedeos from you, do you have any handheld weaponry we can examine?' and I'd refrain from saying another word about the torpedeo situation. But they didn't. And here we are.

 

[Lynx]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

But something happened which changed the situation.

After the second shuttle being destroyed in "Parturition", Janeway realized that they were in serious trouble. So she had a meeting with Chakotay, Tuvok and Torres and they came up with:

The Shuttle And Torpedo Building Team!

B'Elanna Torres suggested Lt.Carey as the one in charge for the team and Tuvok recommended Dalby, Henley, Gerron and Chell for the team while Janeway herself and Chakotay suggested Rollins to be a part of the team as well. Later on Samantha Wildman, Vorik and the Borg Baby joined this important unit.

The shuttles and torpedoes were built with spare parts which Torres could scrap together. With the help of Neelix, who also was a supervisor for the whole project, other impirtant parts could be bought or salvaged as well. They also managed to replicate important parts.

Thanks to those heroes, the true heroes of Voyager, new shuttles and torpedoes could be built during the long journey home.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

It IS a glaring plot hole, givent they started out the series openly admitting that they had a finite supply and could not replace them - it's completely ignoring what's come before for no reason other than 'nah, we don't want to do that.' Again, just ONE line would have been enough to shut us up. It's not like we're asking them to make an episode devoted to them finding the available resources.

Yeah, there was an episode where they were looking at the wares of an arms dealer - all they needed to do was say in 'Retrospect' something like 'We've bought some torpedeos from you, do you have any handheld weaponry we can examine?' and I'd refrain from saying another word about the torpedeo situation. But they didn't. And here we are.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I guess for some it is a big deal but for some of us it isn't. I just think this was one of those things you could easily rationalize with very minimal effort expended and I think the writers just figured the audience would do that.

 

[flemm]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I personally didn't need an episode or throwaway line to clear it up.

Neither did I, though an episode dealing with it in an interesting way would have been a good thing. The torpedoes are only brought up because of Voyager's lack of continuity overall. It is a kind of symbol of what people see as a major weakness of the show. I basically share that opinion, but the number of torpedoes is not in itself a big issue.

DS9, for example, is generally lauded for its continuity, and rightly so imo, but there are plenty of details of this kind that the audience has to figure out for itself. For example, the Jem'Hadar vessel salvaged in "The Ship" (I think that's the name of the ep) is said to be a major intelligence breakthrough. Later in the show, the Federation performs better against Dominion weaponry. The source of these improvements is never explicitly stated, and the nature of the intel obtained from the salvaged vessel is certainly never detailed. You just have to infer that some breakthroughs have been made, and that the salvaged ship is one major reason they are possible.

I don't really have any trouble infering that Voyager has figured out a way to make new torpedoes somewhere along the way.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Now dare you compare "Night Terrors" to "The Fight". "The Fight" was horrible.

"Night Terrors” is a great episode. It has it all-a creepy atmosphere, great character moments and is anchored by an intriguing mystery. The episode gets off on the right note with a lost, adrift starship and great ominous, moody music.

I must admit that I didn't like Night Terrors because whenever it aired on Sky One the audio seemed to be at a lower frequency than the rest of the episodes and I found it very distracting. It sounded like as if all the actors had blocked noses. And it wasn't just a one-time thing, every time they aired the episode it sounded wrong, and sometimes it would give me a headache. But on the DVDs it sounded normal, so I finally managed to enjoy the episode, and it was very good. That shot of the corpses sitting up is one of the freakiest things I've seen.

It's like... geez, we didn't see Defiant getting armed with all those torpedos, so why didn't they run out of them during all those battles we saw on TV? If not seeing the ship getting armed, the torpedoes must not be there! We have to see everything, don't we, or it cannot happen? Right?

The Defiant was a warship that spent 90% of its time docked with a well-supplied base of strategic importance, it's natural to assume that Starfleet would resupply the ship with torpedoes after every engagement. They never created an artificial limit to this on the show like they did on Voyager.

CHAKOTAY: We have a complement of thirty eight photon torpedoes at our disposal, Captain.
JANEWAY: And no way to replace them after they're gone.

38 is a low number of torpedoes to be carrying on a starship, but I'm guessing that that was the whole point considering that Michael Piller co-wrote that episode. He could have said 138 and I wouldn't have blinked, and this whole torpedo thing would have been a non-issue, but he chose the number 38. Why?

And The Fight had nothing similar with the Night Terrors.

The Enterprise encounters a strange space anomaly. Voyager encounters a strange space anomaly. The Enterprise gets stuck. Voyager gets stuck. Troi starts seeing visions in her dreams. Chakotay starts seeing visions when he gets high. Troi thinks she is going mad. Chakotay thinks he is going mad. Troi's visions are actually a message from some strange aliens. Chakotay's visions are actually a message from some strange aliens. The alien message is a plan to allow the Enterprise to escape. The alien message is a plan to allow Voyager to escape.

It's the same skeleton of a plot with some differences in how the story is told. Luckily I didn't have to detract any points from the episode because it didn't have any points to begin with.

Why is it "The Enterprise" and not "The Voyager" anyway? I remember Tom saying "The Voyager" back in Parallax and it sounded weird, and the NX-01 was normally just called "Enterprise", but all the 1701s are referenced as "The Enterprise".

 

[Alex1939]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I personally didn't need an episode or throwaway line to clear it up. I figured it out.

If I was so compelled and entertained by Voyager's stories, then I wouldn't want or need an episode or line explaining torpedo's. (or the much more glaring problems regarding ship repair)


But given some of the real stinkers... I think a barter and trade episode could've been very entertaining.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^But it was never stated Defiant couldn't get new torpedoes. While Tuvok said "We've got 38 photon torpedoes and no way of replacing them."

That was way back in the first season. We've seen the crew stopping at outposts, encountering other aliens. Is it really that hard to believe they've bartered for them or that perhaps some of the Borg technology allowed for replication?

I personally didn't need an episode or throwaway line to clear it up. I figured it out. It wasn't until I came to the internet did I see so many irritated by it. I think it is a non-issue and Brannon was wise to not dwell on it. It isn't a glaring plot point that was overlooked. Now had Seven showed up pregnant in an episode and no effort was made to enlighten us on this then you can break out the pitch forks.

I agree. I think some of you torpedo counters have gotten a little obsessive over this issue. I think it's worth keeping track of (and amusing as well) but hey...they bought or made more!! Big deal.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Think Tank (**)

This episode suffers from that old axiom; show, don't tell. The think tank aliens are supposed to be really, really smart but the problem is that I just don't get a sense of that, they come across as your standard villain of the week. The only reason I can see to think that these guys are smart is because they say they are, and everybody else says that they're smart based on... the fact that they say they are. And why was this concept used for villainy? The idea of a group of extremely smart individuals who seek out challenges is interesting, why did they have to be villains? And why was it made so obvious that they're villains from the very first scene? When you play poker you shouldn't show everyone your cards until after you've won the game, if you do so at the beginning you're guaranteed not to win anything.

For an episode about trying to out-think a problem, the more I think about it the more problems I have with it, and the irony of that is another problem with the episode. And that problem increases the irony which increases the problems which increases the irony... now I'm stuck in a feedback-loop.

This episode almost qualifies for a TNG point deduction for copying The Most Toys; a seemingly friendly alien creates a situation where he is the solution but it is all a part of his sinister plot to capture a main character because they are unique. However, Think Tank is just different enough that I'm willing to give it a pass.

I wasn't bored but I wasn't impressed, this episode falls squarely in the "meh" category for me.

And since we're on the subject of torpedoes, a number were fired in this episode but I don't know how many. In one scene Janeway orders Tuvok to fire torpedoes but we don't see any fired onscreen. I thought I heard three torpedoes being fired but I'm not certain so I'm just going to count two. Towards the end of the episode Janeway orders Tuvok to fire a full spread of torpedoes but they also fail to show that onscreen. I'm going to be generous and say that a full spread is only three torpedoes, which brings us to a total of five. Seven also flew a shuttle to the think tank's ship and Voyager seemed to fly away without recovering it so I'm counting that as another shuttle lost.

Torpedoes: 53/38
Shuttles Lost: 14

 

[startrekwatcher]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

"Think Tank" was a welcome episode in the slump plaguing VOY since "The Disease" aired. I give it 3 stars out of 4.

I've always viewed it as a combination of action adventure with a bit of light character drama centering on Seven's predicament of whether to remain on VOY or tap into her full potential as part of the alien group.

It is one of those episodes that doesn't require much thought--it is just a fun roller coaster ride. The alien menagerie was a neat idea. It was nice seeing the crew working together to solve a problem. So often VOY never showed teamwork the way TNG or DS9 did.

I also loved the tidbit about the think tank in providing a cure for the Vidiian phage.

Oh joy the next episode veers season 5 back into mediocrity.

 

[Tachyon]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

The Defiant was a warship that spent 90% of its time docked with a well-supplied base of strategic importance, it's natural to assume that Starfleet would resupply the ship with torpedoes after every engagement. They never created an artificial limit to this on the show like they did on Voyager.

And why similar assumption is so much more difficult in the case of Voyager? They encountered many space stations during their journey, they were seen to make trade with DQ cultures, but this torpedo situation cannot fit that equation? Me is puzzled. You honestly, HONESTLY, think that Captain Janeway would have never tried to find new supply of torpedoes alongside food, dilithium and other necessisites?

^But it was never stated Defiant couldn't get new torpedoes. While Tuvok said "We've got 38 photon torpedoes and no way of replacing them."

Yes, replacing them with Starfleet's torpedoes, since they are 70 000 light-years away from Federation. But I'm sure B'Elanna, Harry, Tuvie and Seven, and bunch of other people, were more than acapable to modify alien torpedoes to meet the requirements of Voyager's weapon system.

The show stated flat-out that it cannot happen. "We have 38 torpedoes and no way to make more." So if we see more, the show contradicted itself. Sure, there are all sorts of possible explanations, but they didn't give any! The fact is, if the show contradicts itself with no explanation, that's bad writing.

That does not exclude the possibility of them to acquire more along the way. Sorry, but there is no contradiction here.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I guess for some it is a big deal but for some of us it isn't. I just think this was one of those things you could easily rationalize with very minimal effort expended and I think the writers just figured the audience would do that.

Precisely. (But I guess it may require one to have the will to rationalize it, instead of focusing on other things)


Think Tank: I'm gonna hit it with ****. An enjoyable episode, though everyone's obsession with Seven's "uniqueness" is pretty lame. Jason Alexander did a good job.

 

[Dane_Whitman]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I love the diversity of aliens in Think Tank.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

And why similar assumption is so much more difficult in the case of Voyager? They encountered many space stations during their journey, they were seen to make trade with DQ cultures, but this torpedo situation cannot fit that equation? Me is puzzled. You honestly, HONESTLY, think that Captain Janeway would have never tried to find new supply of torpedoes alongside food, dilithium and other necessisites?

That wasn't my point though, my point was that Michael Piller decided the ship should only have 38 torpedoes, an unusually low number, in an episode all about energy conservation and replicator rationing. I would assume that it was intentional on his part that he wanted torpedo rationing to be a part of the show, and in many episodes throughout the first two seasons (excluding Dreadnought) Janeway appears to be apprehensive to fire any torpedoes. But much like replicator rationing the whole concept of torpedo rationing seemed to be dropped once Piller left the show, it was another premise of the show abandoned just so that Voyager could get involved in more pointless battles.

I'm not saying it would be impossible for Voyager to acquire more torpedoes on the journey home, I'm just disappointed that the issue was completely ignored.

 

[Seven of Five]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I love the diversity of aliens in Think Tank.

I agree, but otherwise the episode was a bit flat. I love Jason Alexander in Seinfeld but here he was boring. There wasn't much substance to the character really, but I guess that goes with the novelty of having someone like Jason Alexander on the show.

I agree that the Think Tank didn't come across as particularly intelligent, and also agree that the episode harks back to TNG's 'The Most Toys' somewhat. I did appreciate the mention of Vidiians being cured finally, though it was a bit throwaway. I realise that Voyager was long gone from Vidiian space but some sort of post-cure appearance would have been nice. If they can have Talaxians and Hirogen popping up all over the place...

So anyway, an average 2.5/5. Nothing remarkable, nothing terrible.

Dipping the toes into the torpedo (!!!) debate, I think that if it was explicitly stated in an episode that they only had 38 torpedoes left, and it was an episode where energy supplies and such were a problem, then it is fair to believe that the problem was going to crop up again at some point. A torpedo count was done in 'Scorpion, Part 2,' and even though they were off slightly, at least the idea of low supplies was still consistent.

Now, I agree that just because Voyager had low supplies doesn't mean that they would never be able to replenish anything ever again. However ignoring the matter, and ignoring potential storylines dealing with getting warheads is an example of the writers not using the premise of the series very well, and is a valid complaint.

Although I have to say that over the years, torpedoes, low supplies, and bad continuity in general have become such a part of VOY mythos along with the episodes themselves that it's something I can live with.

 

[Praetor]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

"Think Tank" blew. The idea was okay, but the execution was boring. I like Jason Alexander, and I think he did a decent job, but the episode is still meh. And, it glossed over the mention that the Vidiians were cured off-screen.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Juggernaut (**)

TUVOK: Thirty seven escape pods.
PARIS: They're contaminated with theta radiation.
CHAKOTAY: Malon?
JANEWAY: Possibly.

Highly unlikely, it shouldn't have been in Chakotay's mind at all considering the fact that Voyager jumped 30,000 light-years since the last time they encountered the Malon. In fact, in their current position they're just as likely to encounter the Romulans as they are the Malon, probably moreso considering how much more advanced the Romulans seem to be. Voyager could not possibly encounter the Malon out here.

TUVOK: Theta radiation has affected a radius of six hundred million kilometres.
JANEWAY: Source?
TUVOK: A Malon freighter travelling at high impulse. It appears to be abandoned.

Clearly the writers didn't bother paying any attention to the events happening on their show, not even big event episodes like Timeless and Dark Frontier. And it's not a production glitch either, this episode appears to have aired in the correct order.

This is another episode which falls in the "meh" category for me, it's not bad and there is some interesting atmosphere built up on the Malon freighter, but I just didn't find it that interesting. B'Elanna has anger issues? Been there, done that. It feels like the same problem Harry Kim has, no matter what happens in an episode he will always revert back to being the naive ensign, well it seems that B'Elanna will always revert back to being angry B'Elanna. As for the "monster" on the Malon ship, there was no point in hiding the fact that it was a Malon who had been exposed to the radiation because that was obvious.

There's a good episode in here somewhere, but as is it has character and continuity problems.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Juggernaut was booooooooooooooooooooring! It gets 2 stars out of 4.

It didn't help that when this originally aired it was billed as a special extra episode airing on a Monday night instead of the regular Wednesday showing. So I foolishly expected something good. Instead, it was a dull show.

Like so many VOY episodes it started out with an interesting mystery but came up with the most disappointing payoff- a radiation-stricken Malon grunt on a warpath. Even as an action vehicle it was underwhelming, poorly paced lacking any sense of urgency or exciting sequences. Some people might like seeing Roxann all dirtied up and grunting but it did absolutely nothing for me. It didn't even need to be Malon they were so generic in their use in the episode. Torres experiences sloppy characterization with her being easy to provoke and in bad mood mode.

Another season five loser. I just ask to be entertained on a regular basis, not even mentally stimulated, and VOY can't seem to do that.

 

[TedShatner10]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

"The Disease" had bland guest stars (one of which committed suicide) and horny Harry being unlucky in love, but I liked the generation ship and the way it fragmented: 4/10

"Course: Oblivion" had shitty science and contrivance with the duplicate ship, but great acting, directing, and grim ending prop it up: 5/10

"The Fight" was complete, incoherent bilge and had patronizing depictions of Chuckles' dad. Far worse than the other episode featuring Boothby: 2/10

"Think Tank" was a significant improvement over the last few episodes, but I agree it was trite to depict the eponymous Think Tank as unambigious criminals, extortionists, and charlatans from the onset. But I loved that guy from Seinfeld, their mobile space station lair, and the other Think Tank members being genuine aliens instead of humans with bumpy foreheads or/and pointed ears. An entertaining episode: 7/10

With "Juggernaut" I was not bothered at all with the Marlon ship being a long way from home and this episode being a thin remake of "Dreadnaught", but I was bothered by the anti-radiation protection being nothing more than a FUCKING HYPO SPRAY, instead of you known being a radiation suit? But a watchable episode none the less, it reminds of 1970s Doctor Who, and we see Torres being the centre of a story for a change: 6/10

 

[Bertie]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Juggernaut (**)

Over at EAS it is speculated that this episode was originally intended to air earlier in the season, before "Extreme Risk", noting as evidence Torres's similar behavior in both episodes. Problem with his theory is that the Malons in "Extreme Risk" cite what Voyager did in "Night" while not mentioning any of the events in this episode, which ought to have been mitigating evidence against the accusations they make in "Extreme Risk".

At any rate, since we first met the Malons using an anomaly to dump their stuff far away, is it so great a stretch to wonder that they might have another anomaly leading to this part of the galaxy?

Do the number of "negative continuity points" gained by bad accounting for light-years jumped exceed the "positive continuity points" gained by reusing an alien race?

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

At any rate, since we first met the Malons using an anomaly to dump their stuff far away, is it so great a stretch to wonder that they might have another anomaly leading to this part of the galaxy?

Since the only stable wormhole in the Trek galaxy that we know about is an artificial creation by god-like beings, it's a bit of a stretch to think that two of them occurred naturally near Malon space, yes. I would have accepted it if one had been mentioned by the Malon, but the writers seemingly didn't notice that there was a problem.

Do the number of "negative continuity points" gained by bad accounting for light-years jumped exceed the "positive continuity points" gained by reusing an alien race?

I'd say so. Imagine a show where a character showed up in two episodes, died, and then showed up in a third with no explanation as to how he aten't dead.