• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Opinions on Chakotay & Seven

Chakotay / Seven pairing gets:

  • Thumbs up!

    Votes: 21 17.8%
  • Thumbs down!

    Votes: 97 82.2%

  • Total voters
    118
Status
Not open for further replies.
As a person that has the experience of raising a daughter, Seven's lack of maturity is most telling in "Human Error". The use of someone's hologram as an experiment is (to me Taya), in the same category of idolizing a movie star or a rock star. It is the adolescent female's crush on one of her parent's friends or a teacher. It is a passage, but it also gives us a gauge of her maturity. She is experimenting with life, not living it.

Sometimes May/December romances work, but more often than not they fail.

Brit
 
I have a friend who didn't date until after she was widowed in her late 30s. She'd been in an arranged marriage. She was as unsure of dating protocols as Seven was. Didn't make her any less an adult because she hadn't experienced life as you think it should be lived.

Your friend doesn't know dating protocol but she does know living protocol, if she has children I would say that she does understand relationships as well as most women, possibly more because she didn't get to choose her partner's quirks. You friend was living a life, Seven on the other hand was in stasis and not living at all.

Brit
 
I don't think that what is commonly accepted as the most likely interpretation necessarily invalidates any others.

Nope, and that's the beauty of fanfic.

However, just because something is the most likely explanation doesn't invalidate it either--just because you hate it.

She has not previously understood the complex and wide-ranging emotional impact that a relationship can cause in others, which illustrates her lack of maturity.

I'm not sure where this comes from. She had no knowledge of the future, yet when provided with some, chose to sacrifice the developing relationship to avoid pain for Chakotay. This doesn't indicate that she didn't understand the emotional imact of a relationship.

Seven says this: "The Admiral suggested that your feelings for me will cause you pain in the future." If it is news to her that there are good and bad feelings in any relationship, then I would think it's valid to assume that she didn't previously understand what relationships are like, a sign of emotional immaturity.

And I hear that exactly as I heard from my sweetie: "Look, I was on dialysis for 12 years, then I got a kidney. I've had major surgeries, had every rib broken simply by coughing and you've seen the surgical scar over my heart. You will outlive me and I don't want you to be hurt by that."

Yes, I knew his history, but putting it bluntly like that said, "You could be widowed--have you considered that?"

I daresay most people don't consider mortality and its implications when you get into a relationship. The simple fact is, Chakotay was right. You don't know the future.

That doesn't make Seven's actions born from immaturity.
 
^^ I suppose that depends on how your read her body language and tone of voice--which is an individual thing, apparently.

However, I don't see much of an equal-equal relationship between C/7, at least nothing any better than we see with Janeway and Chakotay. I just reread the dialogue, and notice that instead of coming to him and saying that the admiral has upset her with hints of their future, Seven unilaterally decides to break off the relationship without any real explanation. If this is an example of a better relationship, I'd hate to see a worse example.

Poor Chakotay, always the "weak" partner when it comes to women. ;)
 
Poor Chakotay, always the "weak" partner when it comes to women. ;)

Well, I guess if you consider someone fighting to give a relationship a chance is weak, then he is. And so am I. Because I responded exactly as Chakotay did.

Silly me!

:guffaw:

I suppose I could have been "strong" and gone along with it, ended the relationship and gone my happy way. But then I wouldn't have had those 11 great years, nor would I have experienced the strength it takes to live through the rough times and the death.

I'd argue that it's stronger to fight for continuing in the face of potential grief, than to skulk away quietly.



ETA: As for Seven's lack of communication, I prefer to see her as an Aspie, not an adolescent. In many ways, she deals with people like a mildly autistic adult.
 
Last edited:
As a person that has the experience of raising a daughter, Seven's lack of maturity is most telling in "Human Error". The use of someone's hologram as an experiment is (to me Taya), in the same category of idolizing a movie star or a rock star. It is the adolescent female's crush on one of her parent's friends or a teacher. It is a passage, but it also gives us a gauge of her maturity. She is experimenting with life, not living it.

Sometimes May/December romances work, but more often than not they fail.

Brit
I'll have to keep this in mind the next time the subject of J/C and their unseen but never ending romance comes up from adult fans and see if they find such behavior as an adolescent crush.


interesting.
 
Just because she hadn't dated, didn't make her not adult. She certainly functioned as one on Voyager.

I have a friend who didn't date until after she was widowed in her late 30s. She'd been in an arranged marriage. She was as unsure of dating protocols as Seven was. Didn't make her any less an adult because she hadn't experienced life as you think it should be lived.

IDIC is such a wonderful thing. :)

That is not a valid comparison. Dating or not dating has nothing to do with it. Your friend may have been in an arranged marriage but that was normal for her culture. She still had years of emotional growth and social interactions on her way to adulthood. Sure, they were different from those in "dating cultures" but they were still valid.

Seven had no such experiences. At the time Voyager ended she was just starting to learn how to function as an adult. For her to dive into a serious relationship at that point would be a recipe for disaster, imo.
 
Just because she hadn't dated, didn't make her not adult. She certainly functioned as one on Voyager.

I have a friend who didn't date until after she was widowed in her late 30s. She'd been in an arranged marriage. She was as unsure of dating protocols as Seven was. Didn't make her any less an adult because she hadn't experienced life as you think it should be lived.

IDIC is such a wonderful thing. :)

That is not a valid comparison. Dating or not dating has nothing to do with it. Your friend may have been in an arranged marriage but that was normal for her culture. She still had years of emotional growth and social interactions on her way to adulthood. Sure, they were different from those in "dating cultures" but they were still valid.

Seven had no such experiences. At the time Voyager ended she was just starting to learn how to function as an adult. For her to dive into a serious relationship at that point would be a recipe for disaster, imo.

Teya? Had your friend spent 20 years in a coma?
 
Just because she hadn't dated, didn't make her not adult. She certainly functioned as one on Voyager.

I have a friend who didn't date until after she was widowed in her late 30s. She'd been in an arranged marriage. She was as unsure of dating protocols as Seven was. Didn't make her any less an adult because she hadn't experienced life as you think it should be lived.

IDIC is such a wonderful thing. :)

That is not a valid comparison. Dating or not dating has nothing to do with it. Your friend may have been in an arranged marriage but that was normal for her culture. She still had years of emotional growth and social interactions on her way to adulthood. Sure, they were different from those in "dating cultures" but they were still valid.

Seven had no such experiences. At the time Voyager ended she was just starting to learn how to function as an adult. For her to dive into a serious relationship at that point would be a recipe for disaster, imo.
So, don't we do the same thing with teenage girls? They're nieve to life as an adult but we still sit them down to have the sex talk, give them protection and send them off to the prom anyway. My point is, dating and all it involves often starts with all of us unprepared for it.

Look at how many divorced couples there are out there. They had a life time of adult experances to prepare them and they still couldn't figure out how to make a relationship work. Life alone doesn't prepare you for a relationship with someone else, you learn from doing it.

Doesn't anyone here besides Teya know someone that's been married for years and is now recently single and has no idea how to date in this day and age?
 
Just because she hadn't dated, didn't make her not adult. She certainly functioned as one on Voyager.

I have a friend who didn't date until after she was widowed in her late 30s. She'd been in an arranged marriage. She was as unsure of dating protocols as Seven was. Didn't make her any less an adult because she hadn't experienced life as you think it should be lived.

IDIC is such a wonderful thing. :)

That is not a valid comparison. Dating or not dating has nothing to do with it. Your friend may have been in an arranged marriage but that was normal for her culture. She still had years of emotional growth and social interactions on her way to adulthood. Sure, they were different from those in "dating cultures" but they were still valid.

Seven had no such experiences. At the time Voyager ended she was just starting to learn how to function as an adult. For her to dive into a serious relationship at that point would be a recipe for disaster, imo.
So, don't we do the same thing with teenage girls? They're nieve to life as an adult but we still sit them down to have the sex talk, give them protection and send them off to the prom anyway. My point is, dating and all it involves often starts with all of us unprepared for it.

Look at how many divorced couples there are out there. They had a life time of adult experances to prepare them and they still couldn't figure out how to make a relationship work. Life alone doesn't prepare you for a relationship with someone else, you learn from doing it.

Yes, and as you said you start out by dating. You don't dive into a serious relationship right off the bat.

Now in some cultures like the one of teya's friend there is no "dating" but there is still a period of adolesence where once again the social interactions may not be the same as "dating" cultures but they're still valid.

Seven had no such experience at the time of Voyager's end.
 
That is not a valid comparison. Dating or not dating has nothing to do with it. Your friend may have been in an arranged marriage but that was normal for her culture. She still had years of emotional growth and social interactions on her way to adulthood. Sure, they were different from those in "dating cultures" but they were still valid.

Seven had no such experiences. At the time Voyager ended she was just starting to learn how to function as an adult. For her to dive into a serious relationship at that point would be a recipe for disaster, imo.
So, don't we do the same thing with teenage girls? They're nieve to life as an adult but we still sit them down to have the sex talk, give them protection and send them off to the prom anyway. My point is, dating and all it involves often starts with all of us unprepared for it.

Look at how many divorced couples there are out there. They had a life time of adult experances to prepare them and they still couldn't figure out how to make a relationship work. Life alone doesn't prepare you for a relationship with someone else, you learn from doing it.

Yes, and as you said you start out by dating. You don't dive into a serious relationship right off the bat.

Now in some cultures like the one of teya's friend there is no "dating" but there is still a period of adolesence where once again the social interactions may not be the same as "dating" cultures but they're still valid.

Seven had no such experience at the time of Voyager's end.
Neelix was a very serious relationship for Kes. Who had she been with before?
Odo's first and only serious relationship was with Kira. So Trek as already established it's possable.
 
Neelix was a very serious relationship for Kes. Who had she been with before?
Odo's first and only serious relationship was with Kira. So Trek as already established it's possable.

AGAIN, Kes and Odo both had a lifetime of experiences with the opposite sex before the relationships you're referring to. They may not be the same as the experiences of our culture but that makes them no less valid.

Seven had no such experiences. She was a drone for most of her life.
 
I think the big problem here is that some of you are equating maturity with dating. The number of people you have dated has nothing to do with maturity. Dating is a process by which you get to know someone; I know all kinds of immature people that date. Being an adult has nothing to do with maturity, it’s life experiences that have everything to do with maturity.

Seven could not have had many “life experiences” at the point of Endgame. She was more mature at that point but still in all likely hood not mature enough to maintain a relationship. It’s not just dating, she had very little experience in maintaining simple friendships, and she had very little experience in dealing with the give and take that most of us learn in elementary school.

She didn’t know how to share; she didn’t know how to compete. How many pictures had she drawn or what were her true aspirations? She had to have had major trauma issues stemming from her assimilation, that alone hampers maturity. She had been six years old, and the only child on the Raven for a couple of years before that, no playmates, just her and her two parents. The mind boggles when you stop and think about what she missed.

Could she catch up, sure. But I don’t think she could have by the time of “Endgame”. Couple that with the fact that she had a governor that filtered all emotion and there just isn’t enough time, nor did Voyager have the personnel trained to handle this kind of problem.

The sad thing I think is that the character of Seven of Nine, could have been so much more than a well endowed woman in a cat suit. I know Jeri Ryan's work, if she had been given the material she could have made Seven a wonderful character, I think we lost all the way around.

Brit
 
Uhura caught up between episodes after NOMAD wiped her.

I just feel it odd that upon discovering that there was a fully actualized "adult" and human version of Anika living in Sevens head somewhere in her head that they didn't bother to look for her, just because the drone was more familiar to them even though she was less real that the virtually grown version of the same person.

Proportionately to a human, kes was probably a teen when she met Neelix, a 20 something when she met Voyager and pushing 40 when left in seaon 4.

kes probably remembers all the biconvenient orgies she was driven through in Warlord and probably wants to forget being passed about between the Kazon at night to combat the chill during her tenure as a slavegirl there. Which is probably how she met Neelix, and she fell in love with him because he didn't rape her. In fact she probably loved him more and more every time he didn't have sex with her... Which is why he was probably so insane with rage when ever she was seen sexually or acted sexually in his presence.
 
Neelix was a very serious relationship for Kes. Who had she been with before?
Odo's first and only serious relationship was with Kira. So Trek as already established it's possable.

AGAIN, Kes and Odo both had a lifetime of experiences with the opposite sex before the relationships you're referring to. They may not be the same as the experiences of our culture but that makes them no less valid.

Seven had no such experiences. She was a drone for most of her life.

Kes was a teenager, Neelix a fully-formed adult with a history of relationships. Kes' "lifetime of experiences" is no more valid in her one year (or so) than Seven's four years (or so). Odo comes from a species for whom sexual dimorphism is nothing more than a representation for the solids. It's debatable whether Odo's "maleness" was anything more than conforming to ill-formed cultural expectations and has no validity outside his duties as a security offier. Odo's discovering "romance" is akin to Seven's, especially (as an example) his overblown reaction to his and Kira's first fight.

I think the big problem here is that some of you are equating maturity with dating. The number of people you have dated has nothing to do with maturity. Dating is a process by which you get to know someone; I know all kinds of immature people that date. Being an adult has nothing to do with maturity, it’s life experiences that have everything to do with maturity.

I think a different problem here is that some of you are equating maturity with life experience. You're right in that being an adult has nothing to do with maturity, and having a wealth of life experience does not guarantee maturity. Nor does having little life experience guarantee immaturity. Just because a teenaged girl doesn't have a long history of dating or life experience, it doesn't mean she's not capable of entering into a mature, loving relationship. Treating people with little life experience as though they're automatically immature is a sure way to get them to live down to your expectations.

The sad thing I think is that the character of Seven of Nine, could have been so much more than a well endowed woman in a cat suit. I know Jeri Ryan's work, if she had been given the material she could have made Seven a wonderful character, I think we lost all the way around.

Brit

The fact that you think all that Seven of Nine was is a well endowed woman in a catsuit speaks volumes. Seven got more development in four years than most VGR characters got in seven, and was the second-most fleshed out, interesting character on the ship (to HoloDoc). This is due in no small part to Jeri Ryan, as you mention.
 
maturity has three major components.

1. Able to process data with a degree of sane rational.
2. Able to make sane choices from that data.
3. Able to take responsibility for the consequences of those choices sanely.

becoming mature is usually about fucking up enough that you stop fucking up.

Kes was mature, and Seven might have been by year four even if she was cheating still using her Borg defaults as a crutch.
 
maturity has three major components.

1. Able to process data with a degree of sane rational.
2. Able to make sane choices from that data.
3. Able to take responsibility for the consequences of those choices sanely.

becoming mature is usually about fucking up enough that you stop fucking up.

Exactly right.

Seven was supposed to have become the "outsider character". Spock was one, as was Data and Worf, Odo and to a certain extent Quark. Outsider characters bring conflict and drama, but in the case of Spock, Data, Worf, Odo and Quark there was also a certain amount of power, they each had "rank" for want of a better word. These people often had the ability to override the Captain.

Seven didn’t have the authority, she couldn't countermand anything Janeway ordered and because she had no power the times she did go against the Captain she came off looking like a rebellious teenager and more immature than ever.

To me Seven is a lot like someone who has just graduated from college, they have a lot of knowledge, in fact a lot of them think they know everything. The first real sign of maturity is when they realize that they don't in fact know everything. They discount someone else's interests as irrelevant (Seven to Chakotay in "One Small Step"), they think they know better the course that should be taken ( "Prey"), and they have a somewhat exaggerated view of their own abilities ("The Omega Directive".)

The fact that you think all that Seven of Nine was is a well endowed woman in a catsuit speaks volumes. Seven got more development in four years than most VGR characters got in seven, and was the second-most fleshed out, interesting character on the ship (to HoloDoc). This is due in no small part to Jeri Ryan, as you mention.

The fact that you don't see the problem speaks volumns too.

Brit
 
While our experiences might be similar to C/7, most of them are false analogies, a classic logical fallacy. Even an arranged marriage brings experience in relationships with the spouse, the spouses family, etc., not to mention years of schooling, family issues, etc. No human reaches a marriageable age without a long, progressive growth process through infancy, childhood, and adolescence. Seven had roughly ten years of non-Borg experience--six of those as a child on the Raven.

Teya, the experience you had with your boyfriend may seem similar to what Seven did, but the analogy doesn't necessarily work. You and your boyfriend were experienced and aware of what the commitment would require of you. As Chakotay wisely tells her, no one can predict the future--something that apparently hadn't occured to Seven. In your case, you knew quite well that you could have predeceased your boyfriend through any number of illnesses and accidents. All anyone can promise someone else is today.

For every analogy that works here, there is another that doesn't. For every person who married the first person they dated, there are others who didn't or who married and then divorced them. For every couple that warned each other about an illness or problem they had before becoming involved, there are some that ended up with a successful relationship and just as many, maybe more, who didn't. In other words, analogy is a weak basis for an argument, because rarely, if ever, are the comparisons valid in every way. Any analogy we use will not include a partner who lived their first six years in space with their parents, finished growing up in a Borg maturation chamber, spent a dozen years as a drone, and then lived four years on a Starfleet vessel interacting with less than 150 other people.

The reality is that Seven's reaction to what the admiral tells her shows her immaturity and reveals that her relationship with Chakotay is not "equal," at all. Her motivation, to keep from hurting Chakotay, might be similar to your boyfriend's motivation, but to say that he was like Seven and you like Chakotay is a false analogy IMHO.

As for Chakotay's weakness, it just seems to me that he picks women who are stronger than he is and who like to call the shots--from Seska, to Kellen, to Kathryn, to Seven.
 
The sad thing I think is that the character of Seven of Nine, could have been so much more than a well endowed woman in a cat suit. I know Jeri Ryan's work, if she had been given the material she could have made Seven a wonderful character, I think we lost all the way around.

Brit
Speak for yourself.

Seven and Ryan helped make a show on the verge of cancellation last for seven full years and made that character a part of pop sci-fi culture, which allowed us to reep the benefits of keeping a show we love on the air and more Trek merchendise. Lets not be ungratful, we the audience lost nothing.

I really think some fans should try and walk in these actors shoes for one week and see how they feel after working 16 hours days under hot lights, make up, a binding corrset with high heels as well as what ever might have gone on behind the set. Then find out after all that what it feels like to be summed up as a waste by just what your character wears.
 
The fact that you think all that Seven of Nine was is a well endowed woman in a catsuit speaks volumes. Seven got more development in four years than most VGR characters got in seven, and was the second-most fleshed out, interesting character on the ship (to HoloDoc). This is due in no small part to Jeri Ryan, as you mention.

The fact that you don't see the problem speaks volumns too.

Brit[/QUOTE]

What problem would that be?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top