Opinions on Chakotay & Seven

[Guy Gardener]

How did Aryn try to disqualify John trying to get a leg over in Farscape: "I'm the best choice from a limited set of options"? Something like that.

After Seven years, the crew, I mean CREWS, must have made some decisions about who they would never date again,and a series of eliminations would have left these two holding hands since one other bugger wanted them.

actually we have, are in the process of quantifying exactly how sexy the crew is from those polls about who we want to marry...

Seven scored a 17
Chakotay scored a 16.

I suppose that they are equally sexy and they owe the universe to get it on, no matter any other difficulties with their interpersonality.

 

[teya]

^ Three dates and a kiss are not unreasonable but they don't qualify as a "deep" relationship which is where the shallow part comes in. To go back to the start of this tangent three dates and a kiss doesn't mean you'll have the deeper emotions that you would need an "angry warrior" story to talk about. Speaking plainly would be easier, imo.

However, apparently he felt enough to want to continue the relationship. And he was comfortable enough speaking his mind with her.

If someone has a deep relationship, while speaking plainly might be difficult, it would also be necessary. Apparently Chakotay was not as comfortable with Kathryn. He had to hide behind a story. And what he was saying didn't bode well for them--again, it was all about her. He was there to serve her, to make her burden easier, to be there for her.

That's not a mutual relationship.

And it's not a promising relationship because he can't speak plainly.

 

[Thestral]

actually we have, are in the process of quantifying exactly how sexy the crew is from those polls about who we want to marry...

Seven scored a 17
Chakotay scored a 16.

I suppose that they are equally sexy and they owe the universe to get it on, no matter any other difficulties with their interpersonality.

Reminds me of this silly little Valentine's thing at my high school, where everybody who wanted to could take a test and in a week or so pay $2 and it would give you a sheetout about who was "most compatible" "least compatible" and "best friend" to you in the school and to your particular year. It was always a fun little diversion.

^ Three dates and a kiss are not unreasonable but they don't qualify as a "deep" relationship which is where the shallow part comes in. To go back to the start of this tangent three dates and a kiss doesn't mean you'll have the deeper emotions that you would need an "angry warrior" story to talk about. Speaking plainly would be easier, imo.

However, apparently he felt enough to want to continue the relationship. And he was comfortable enough speaking his mind with her.

If someone has a deep relationship, while speaking plainly might be difficult, it would also be necessary. Apparently Chakotay was not as comfortable with Kathryn. He had to hide behind a story. And what he was saying didn't bode well for them--again, it was all about her. He was there to serve her, to make her burden easier, to be there for her.

That's not a mutual relationship.

And it's not a promising relationship because he can't speak plainly.

Also, I don't think it's fair to characterize a just-budding relationship as "shallow." A five-year old swimming in the three-foot part of the pool is a different story than a twenty-year old. One's appropriate, the other's shallow.

 

[AuntKate]

^ Three dates and a kiss are not unreasonable but they don't qualify as a "deep" relationship which is where the shallow part comes in. To go back to the start of this tangent three dates and a kiss doesn't mean you'll have the deeper emotions that you would need an "angry warrior" story to talk about. Speaking plainly would be easier, imo.

However, apparently he felt enough to want to continue the relationship. And he was comfortable enough speaking his mind with her.

If someone has a deep relationship, while speaking plainly might be difficult, it would also be necessary. Apparently Chakotay was not as comfortable with Kathryn. He had to hide behind a story. And what he was saying didn't bode well for them--again, it was all about her. He was there to serve her, to make her burden easier, to be there for her.

That's not a mutual relationship.

And it's not a promising relationship because he can't speak plainly.

It's promising because he does speak plainly here, from earlier in the program, where he promises her that she isn't alone, to their argument about the Borg. He speaks plainly about her not knowing when to quit, and she speaks plainly about being alone after all. This conversation is two years AFTER the Angry Warrior speech, and the relationship has obviously progressed. The emotions are not just obvious, they're mutual.

There is no similar progression for the C/7 relationship, however. It's just too early in their friendship for either of them to suspect that they're going to be anything more than a passing fancy. Clearly Seven thinks it isn't serious. Why else would she develop cold feet after the Admiral talked to her? There was no commitment there as yet and so it was a simple thing to just bring it all to a halt--until Chakotay begged and pleaded (UGH).

I don't think he was speaking his mind with Seven as much as reacting, with hurt pride, to her very wise decision to cool things off a bit. If he took time to think, he would have given her the room she needed to adjust to all the upcoming changes their return would cause without having to tangle with a premature commitment to him, as well.

 

[teya]

^ Three dates and a kiss are not unreasonable but they don't qualify as a "deep" relationship which is where the shallow part comes in. To go back to the start of this tangent three dates and a kiss doesn't mean you'll have the deeper emotions that you would need an "angry warrior" story to talk about. Speaking plainly would be easier, imo.

However, apparently he felt enough to want to continue the relationship. And he was comfortable enough speaking his mind with her.

If someone has a deep relationship, while speaking plainly might be difficult, it would also be necessary. Apparently Chakotay was not as comfortable with Kathryn. He had to hide behind a story. And what he was saying didn't bode well for them--again, it was all about her. He was there to serve her, to make her burden easier, to be there for her.

That's not a mutual relationship.

And it's not a promising relationship because he can't speak plainly.

It's promising because he does speak plainly here, from earlier in the program, where he promises her that she isn't alone, to their argument about the Borg. He speaks plainly about her not knowing when to quit, and she speaks plainly about being alone after all. This conversation is two years AFTER the Angry Warrior speech, and the relationship has obviously progressed. The emotions are not just obvious, they're mutual.

No, they're still all about Kathryn. He is her rock. She is herself.

And frankly, if it takes *two* years to get to a point where you can speak plainly with a friend (and they're supposed to be best friends), there's a problem.

Clearly Seven thinks it isn't serious. Why else would she develop cold feet after the Admiral talked to her?

Because she thought that by ending the relationship before it got serious, she would spare Chakotay the pain the Admiral described.

Seven said that. Plainly.

 

[Thestral]

Clearly Seven thinks it isn't serious. Why else would she develop cold feet after the Admiral talked to her? There was no commitment there as yet and so it was a simple thing to just bring it all to a halt--until Chakotay begged and pleaded (UGH).

I don't think he was speaking his mind with Seven as much as reacting, with hurt pride, to her very wise decision to cool things off a bit. If he took time to think, he would have given her the room she needed to adjust to all the upcoming changes their return would cause without having to tangle with a premature commitment to him, as well.

That's a... very interesting reading you have of Seven's reaction. Let me propose a different answer to "Why else would she develop cold feet after the Admiral talked to her?"

Instead of seeing it as a not-serious thing that Seven could easily discard, I see her reaction to the Admiral's story as a clear sign that her feelings were serious. Serious enough that she'd deny Chakotay (and herself!) some happiness in order to prevent his depression after her death. That is, Seven's willing to give up her and Chakotay's happiness in order to save his life many years later, because that's how much she cares about him.

 

[kimc]

And frankly, if it takes *two* years to get to a point where you can speak plainly with a friend (and they're supposed to be best friends), there's a problem.

Who said anything about it taking two years? The conversation we saw happened two years later but that doesn't mean they weren't able to speak plainly with each other until that very minute!

 

[teya]

And frankly, if it takes *two* years to get to a point where you can speak plainly with a friend (and they're supposed to be best friends), there's a problem.

Who said anything about it taking two years? The conversation we saw happened two years later but that doesn't mean they weren't able to speak plainly with each other until that very minute!

They should have been able to speak plainly on New Earth.

If they were truly that close.

 

[kimc]

Clearly Seven thinks it isn't serious. Why else would she develop cold feet after the Admiral talked to her? There was no commitment there as yet and so it was a simple thing to just bring it all to a halt--until Chakotay begged and pleaded (UGH).

I don't think he was speaking his mind with Seven as much as reacting, with hurt pride, to her very wise decision to cool things off a bit. If he took time to think, he would have given her the room she needed to adjust to all the upcoming changes their return would cause without having to tangle with a premature commitment to him, as well.

That's a... very interesting reading you have of Seven's reaction. Let me propose a different answer to "Why else would she develop cold feet after the Admiral talked to her?"

Instead of seeing it as a not-serious thing that Seven could easily discard, I see her reaction to the Admiral's story as a clear sign that her feelings were serious. Serious enough that she'd deny Chakotay (and herself!) some happiness in order to prevent his depression after her death. That is, Seven's willing to give up her and Chakotay's happiness in order to save his life many years later, because that's how much she cares about him.

Hold on, did the Admiral tell Seven about her death? I just remember her saying something along the lines of "This relationship will cause him pain."

Coincidently, I'm seeing a guy and we're having our fourth date Friday night. I'm really not sure this is going to go anywhere but he's nice to hang out with for now. Would I call it off if a future version of someone who knew us came up to me and said the relationship would cause him pain? Sure I would. Most people don't start a dating relationship with the intention of deliberately hurting someone. I don't think Seven had to care deeply for Chakotay to want to spare him that - all it took was a little compassion.

Also, as far as she knows she's not "sacrificing her future happiness" - she's just giving up one option knowing more will come along.

 

[kimc]

And frankly, if it takes *two* years to get to a point where you can speak plainly with a friend (and they're supposed to be best friends), there's a problem.

Who said anything about it taking two years? The conversation we saw happened two years later but that doesn't mean they weren't able to speak plainly with each other until that very minute!

They should have been able to speak plainly on New Earth.

If they were truly that close.

That's kind of the point of New Earth. They weren't that close when they were stuck there but that experiencee was the beginning of them developing a deeper relationship. Ironically, in many fans' minds "Resolutions" resolved nada.

 

[AuntKate]

Clearly Seven thinks it isn't serious. Why else would she develop cold feet after the Admiral talked to her? There was no commitment there as yet and so it was a simple thing to just bring it all to a halt--until Chakotay begged and pleaded (UGH).

I don't think he was speaking his mind with Seven as much as reacting, with hurt pride, to her very wise decision to cool things off a bit. If he took time to think, he would have given her the room she needed to adjust to all the upcoming changes their return would cause without having to tangle with a premature commitment to him, as well.

That's a... very interesting reading you have of Seven's reaction. Let me propose a different answer to "Why else would she develop cold feet after the Admiral talked to her?"

Instead of seeing it as a not-serious thing that Seven could easily discard, I see her reaction to the Admiral's story as a clear sign that her feelings were serious. Serious enough that she'd deny Chakotay (and herself!) some happiness in order to prevent his depression after her death. That is, Seven's willing to give up her and Chakotay's happiness in order to save his life many years later, because that's how much she cares about him.

That is a possible explanation, of course, and probably the most commonly accepted one.

It's equally as possible that Seven has been playing at this experience (with her numbered dates and self-conscious posing) much as she did in "Human Error," only to discover, at her shock and dismay, that her playing could bring about serious pain and injury to others. To me, it's very plausible. Immature individuals often dabble at serious situations only to draw back in shock when the terrible impact of their actions become clear (I'm reminded of the plot of "Atonement" here).

Remember that the admiral is describing Seven's death as happening three years in the future. She doesn't say that C/7 have been married for three years. For all we know, this first dating attempt might have fizzled out and restarted years later, after Seven gained more emotional maturity. They might have been married for a few days or weeks when Seven died, for all we know.The admiral certainly knew that Seven was susceptible to manipulation, perhaps because she knew how fragile the relationship was at this point.

 

[teya]

Clearly Seven thinks it isn't serious. Why else would she develop cold feet after the Admiral talked to her? There was no commitment there as yet and so it was a simple thing to just bring it all to a halt--until Chakotay begged and pleaded (UGH).

I don't think he was speaking his mind with Seven as much as reacting, with hurt pride, to her very wise decision to cool things off a bit. If he took time to think, he would have given her the room she needed to adjust to all the upcoming changes their return would cause without having to tangle with a premature commitment to him, as well.

That's a... very interesting reading you have of Seven's reaction. Let me propose a different answer to "Why else would she develop cold feet after the Admiral talked to her?"

Instead of seeing it as a not-serious thing that Seven could easily discard, I see her reaction to the Admiral's story as a clear sign that her feelings were serious. Serious enough that she'd deny Chakotay (and herself!) some happiness in order to prevent his depression after her death. That is, Seven's willing to give up her and Chakotay's happiness in order to save his life many years later, because that's how much she cares about him.

That is a possible explanation, of course, and probably the most commonly accepted one.

It's equally as possible that Seven has been playing at this experience (with her numbered dates and self-conscious posing) much as she did in "Human Error," only to discover, at her shock and dismay, that her playing could bring about serious pain and injury to others. To me, it's very plausible. Immature individuals often dabble at serious situations only to draw back in shock when the terrible impact of their actions become clear (I'm reminded of the plot of "Atonement" here).

I don't see Seven as behaving immaturely here.

Is she uncertain about the protocols of dating? Of course she is.

That doesn't make her a child.

BTW, my sweetie tried to break us up when it started to get serious--for the same reason. He knew I would outlive him.

He was being far from immature. And I was certainly not debasing myself by arguing back that he was worth the risk.

 

[kimc]

BTW, my sweetie tried to break us up when it started to get serious--for the same reason. He knew I would outlive him.

He was being far from immature. And I was certainly not debasing myself by arguing back that he was worth the risk.

Again, the admiral may have mentioned Seven's death to Janeway but all she said to Seven was that the relationship "would cause pain".

As for maturity, your guy had a lifetime of experiences and maturity behind him while Seven had only been human for a short while and didn't have the socialization of an adult - yet.

 

[propita]

Beltran had argued for a C/7 friendship at the least all the way back to season 5. He felt that given Chakotay's experiences (including the destruction of his colony at the hands of the Cardassians), he'd be more sympathetic to Seven.

YES!

Both suffered traumatic loss of family. Both sacrificed their ships to save Voyager. They were linked and knew each other's thoughts when Seven was disconnected from the Collective.

Although, I'm still a J/C fan and will always be pissed that whomever at Paramount screwed fans over.

The earlier post about "The Q and the Gray" does show that, even that late in the game, Chak was interested in Janeway. And her response did not sound like "You poor sap."

It's just wrong what studios do to the fans that feed them.

 

[Thestral]

Clearly Seven thinks it isn't serious. Why else would she develop cold feet after the Admiral talked to her? There was no commitment there as yet and so it was a simple thing to just bring it all to a halt--until Chakotay begged and pleaded (UGH).

I don't think he was speaking his mind with Seven as much as reacting, with hurt pride, to her very wise decision to cool things off a bit. If he took time to think, he would have given her the room she needed to adjust to all the upcoming changes their return would cause without having to tangle with a premature commitment to him, as well.

That's a... very interesting reading you have of Seven's reaction. Let me propose a different answer to "Why else would she develop cold feet after the Admiral talked to her?"

Instead of seeing it as a not-serious thing that Seven could easily discard, I see her reaction to the Admiral's story as a clear sign that her feelings were serious. Serious enough that she'd deny Chakotay (and herself!) some happiness in order to prevent his depression after her death. That is, Seven's willing to give up her and Chakotay's happiness in order to save his life many years later, because that's how much she cares about him.

That is a possible explanation, of course, and probably the most commonly accepted one.

The fact that it's a possible (and most commonly accepted) explanation is kinda an invalidation of your original point (Clearly Seven thinks it isn't serious. Why else would she develop cold feet after the Admiral talked to her?) innit?

It's equally as possible that Seven has been playing at this experience (with her numbered dates and self-conscious posing) much as she did in "Human Error," only to discover, at her shock and dismay, that her playing could bring about serious pain and injury to others. To me, it's very plausible. Immature individuals often dabble at serious situations only to draw back in shock when the terrible impact of their actions become clear (I'm reminded of the plot of "Atonement" here).

Remember that the admiral is describing Seven's death as happening three years in the future. She doesn't say that C/7 have been married for three years. For all we know, this first dating attempt might have fizzled out and restarted years later, after Seven gained more emotional maturity. They might have been married for a few days or weeks when Seven died, for all we know.The admiral certainly knew that Seven was susceptible to manipulation, perhaps because she knew how fragile the relationship was at this point.

I think Seven's reaction was far too strong to be characterized as "immature" or "playing," and Occam's Razor (and the tropes of fiction) tell us that it's most likely based on the Admiral's story that this first dating relationship became very serious and turned into marriage. An on-again, off-again relationship is gap-filling, and is less likely (IMO) than what is implied.

BTW, my sweetie tried to break us up when it started to get serious--for the same reason. He knew I would outlive him.

He was being far from immature. And I was certainly not debasing myself by arguing back that he was worth the risk.

Again, the admiral may have mentioned Seven's death to Janeway but all she said to Seven was that the relationship "would cause pain".

As for maturity, your guy had a lifetime of experiences and maturity behind him while Seven had only been human for a short while and didn't have the socialization of an adult - yet.

Nope. From MemoryAlpha:
http://www.trekbbs.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3140694
"Meanwhile, in Cargo Bay 2, Admiral Janeway tries to encourage Seven of Nine to raise objections to Captain Janeway about trying to destroy the hub. She has told her of her future fate, and how it will affect Chakotay, as an incentive . Seven is very shaken, but reasons that even her death and Chakotay's heartbreak are worth the chance to cut off the Borg from ready access to the rest of the galaxy. Admiral Janeway asks her if that is really so; she will be sacrificing her life and the welfare of people she knows; people she loves and who love her; for the sake of nameless, faceless, hypothetical millions. Seven does not answer; in a tight voice, she asks to be excused so she can return to her work. Admiral Janeway sighs in frustration."

And who can say how long it takes to learn the desire to suffer a hurt to protect the one you love from a much greater hurt later?

 

[AuntKate]

While Occam's Razor may be appropriate in many applications of science and philosophy, I don't think it has the same validity in fiction, where the author is "god." Many plots are deliberately complicated because they are designed to satisfy the writer's imagination. I'm not sure which "tropes of fiction" you're talking about. Are you?

The admiral came to this point of the journey because this is when Voyager comes across the hub, not because this was the beginning of the C/7 dating relationship that leads to their marriage. All we know is that in three years, Seven will die and will be Chakotay's wife. When their relationship becomes serious and the marriage occurs is totally open to speculation. I think there is reason to believe that the admiral's interference has created serious problems for their future together.

I don't think that what is commonly accepted as the most likely interpretation necessarily invalidates any others. To me, Seven is clearly uncertain about her feelings toward Chakotay and their relationship after talking to the Admiral. She has not previously understood the complex and wide-ranging emotional impact that a relationship can cause in others, which illustrates her lack of maturity. She gives in to Chakototay's pleas, but the seeds of doubt are there. I think that anything can happen with them after Voyager is home--they could continue as a couple or break up.

 

[Tachyon]

No, Teya, my dislike for C/7 goes much deeper than the desertion of the seven-year J/C flirtation. It was written purely to exploit the two "sexies" of the show by turning them into stereotypes. They deserved better.

That about sums it up for me too. I actually enjoy fanfiction where Janeway ends up with someone other than Chakotay and would have been happy if they had just ended the show with a neutral shipper ending. The C7 romance however was not only poorly conceived but poorly executed and reflected poorly on both characters.

This about sums it up for me as well.

C/7 was a bad idea seeing light of the day in the eleventh hour. It didn't work for J/Cers, it didn't work for D/7ers, or to J/7ers, and it obviously didn't work for majority of Voyager fans who don't "ship" any pair in particular. For me C/7 was Troi/Worf all over again and then some --> Major fail where two characters were treated worse than in poorest fanfic there is available.

 

[teya]

I don't think that what is commonly accepted as the most likely interpretation necessarily invalidates any others.

Nope, and that's the beauty of fanfic.

However, just because something is the most likely explanation doesn't invalidate it either--just because you hate it.

She has not previously understood the complex and wide-ranging emotional impact that a relationship can cause in others, which illustrates her lack of maturity.

I'm not sure where this comes from. She had no knowledge of the future, yet when provided with some, chose to sacrifice the developing relationship to avoid pain for Chakotay. This doesn't indicate that she didn't understand the emotional imact of a relationship.

 

[teya]

BTW, my sweetie tried to break us up when it started to get serious--for the same reason. He knew I would outlive him.

He was being far from immature. And I was certainly not debasing myself by arguing back that he was worth the risk.

Again, the admiral may have mentioned Seven's death to Janeway but all she said to Seven was that the relationship "would cause pain".

As for maturity, your guy had a lifetime of experiences and maturity behind him while Seven had only been human for a short while and didn't have the socialization of an adult - yet.

Just because she hadn't dated, didn't make her not adult. She certainly functioned as one on Voyager.

I have a friend who didn't date until after she was widowed in her late 30s. She'd been in an arranged marriage. She was as unsure of dating protocols as Seven was. Didn't make her any less an adult because she hadn't experienced life as you think it should be lived.

IDIC is such a wonderful thing.

 

[AuntKate]

I don't think that what is commonly accepted as the most likely interpretation necessarily invalidates any others.

Nope, and that's the beauty of fanfic.

However, just because something is the most likely explanation doesn't invalidate it either--just because you hate it.

She has not previously understood the complex and wide-ranging emotional impact that a relationship can cause in others, which illustrates her lack of maturity.

I'm not sure where this comes from. She had no knowledge of the future, yet when provided with some, chose to sacrifice the developing relationship to avoid pain for Chakotay. This doesn't indicate that she didn't understand the emotional imact of a relationship.

Seven says this: "The Admiral suggested that your feelings for me will cause you pain in the future." If it is news to her that there are good and bad feelings in any relationship, then I would think it's valid to assume that she didn't previously understand what relationships are like, a sign of emotional immaturity.

Backatcha on not liking interpretations that don't fit your shipper preference.