Babylon 5 (4th trip)

[trentman359]

"The Parliament of Dreams"

"Sinclair's old flame, Catherine Sakai, arrives during a weeklong festival when humans and aliens demonstrate their religious beliefs. An old enemy sends an assassin to kill G'Kar."

This was a good episode. I loved Sinclair's demonstration on Earth religion. For some reason that scene has stayed with me ever since I saw it the first time. I kinda of felt bad for the assassin at the end. Poor guy has to live in fear.

 

[Jan]

I liked the introduction we got to Na'Toth in "Parliament".

I loved the scene during the Minbari ceremony when G'Kar switched his fruit with...somebody else's, I forget who.

Jan

 

[Harvey]

I like the demonstration of Earth's various religions in Parliament of Dreams. I don't like that the episode presumes that alien races will be nearly monolithic in their beliefs. But, then again, I was never thrilled by the series' concept that humans are special because they build communities.

Infection is sort of fun, in a campy way. But as good as the last scene with Sinclair and Garibaldi is, it doesn't make up for the fact that the episode is such a cheese-fest.

 

[Jan]

I like the demonstration of Earth's various religions in Parliament of Dreams. I don't like that the episode presumes that alien races will be nearly monolithic in their beliefs.

Not all, though. We learn later on that Narns have at least followers of G'Lan as well as G'Quan and we don't see anything at all about Brakiri, pak'ma'ra, Gaim, Markab or any of the other races. Given how many gods and godesses they have, I wouldn't really consider the Centauri to be monolithic in their beliefs, either. They just like a good party and I imagine that Londo thought it was a good opportunity to throw one at the Homeworld's expense.

Jan

 

[MarianLH]

I don't like that the episode presumes that alien races will be nearly monolithic in their beliefs.

Not all, though. We learn later on that Narns have at least followers of G'Lan as well as G'Quan and we don't see anything at all about Brakiri, pak'ma'ra, Gaim, Markab or any of the other races. Given how many gods and godesses they have, I wouldn't really consider the Centauri to be monolithic in their beliefs, either.

"Parliament" itself doesn't allude to any of that, though. It shows one religion per alien species, and lots of human ones. So the criticism of the episode itself still stands.

And to be even more pedantic, we did see some glimpses of Markab and Brakiri belief, in "Confessions and Lamentations" and "Day Of The Dead", respectively.


Marian

 

[Jan]

I don't like that the episode presumes that alien races will be nearly monolithic in their beliefs.

Not all, though. We learn later on that Narns have at least followers of G'Lan as well as G'Quan and we don't see anything at all about Brakiri, pak'ma'ra, Gaim, Markab or any of the other races. Given how many gods and godesses they have, I wouldn't really consider the Centauri to be monolithic in their beliefs, either.

"Parliament" itself doesn't allude to any of that, though. It shows one religion per alien species, and lots of human ones. So the criticism of the episode itself still stands.

True except that it's explicit in the dialogue that the festival is to demonstrate the *dominant* belief system of each race.

And to be even more pedantic, we did see some glimpses of Markab and Brakiri belief, in "Confessions and Lamentations" and "Day Of The Dead", respectively.

And a little of the Drazi missionaries who came to visit the station (and poke the plant) that was blessed by Droshalla in "Convictions".

But we don't really know anything about whether that was the single or even dominant belief system for each race. Just because we didn't see other beliefs doesn't mean that they weren't there any more than it would mean that humans only have Christians (Sinclair) or Jews (Ivanova) since that was all that we saw (discounting the interfaith conga line, that is).

Just for fun I'll see what the League of Non-Alligned Worlds document that Larry DiTillio did has to say about some of the beliefs later on tonight.

Jan

 

[trentman359]

"Mind War"

"Talia's old Psi Corps instructor, the victim of a secret experiment, is the target of a manhunt involving the Psi-Cops. Catherine wants to survey a promising planet for possible mining, but G'Kar warns her to stay away."

Another quality episode that lays down some important framework. Bester is a great villain and his character grew to be quite important to the show.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Not all, though. We learn later on that Narns have at least followers of G'Lan as well as G'Quan and we don't see anything at all about Brakiri, pak'ma'ra, Gaim, Markab or any of the other races. Given how many gods and godesses they have, I wouldn't really consider the Centauri to be monolithic in their beliefs, either.

"Parliament" itself doesn't allude to any of that, though. It shows one religion per alien species, and lots of human ones. So the criticism of the episode itself still stands.

True except that it's explicit in the dialogue that the festival is to demonstrate the *dominant* belief system of each race.

And to be even more pedantic, we did see some glimpses of Markab and Brakiri belief, in "Confessions and Lamentations" and "Day Of The Dead", respectively.

And a little of the Drazi missionaries who came to visit the station (and poke the plant) that was blessed by Droshalla in "Convictions".


Jan

And the Pak'ma'ra sing as part of their religious ceremonies (that speech by Vir gets me crying every time).

 

[Elemental]

"The Parliament of Dreams"

"Sinclair's old flame, Catherine Sakai, arrives during a weeklong festival when humans and aliens demonstrate their religious beliefs. An old enemy sends an assassin to kill G'Kar."

This was a good episode. I loved Sinclair's demonstration on Earth religion. For some reason that scene has stayed with me ever since I saw it the first time. I kinda of felt bad for the assassin at the end. Poor guy has to live in fear.

Another episode that gives some shivers at the ending. I can remember I was rolling my eyes the first time I saw this and we see Sinclair and Sakai all over each other. We had already seen one love interest in The Gathering who seemed like she might be "the one" (no pun intended) and now we have a new girl who apparently has always had a special place in Sinclair's heart. I was very much afraid that Sinclair was going to be the standard male heart-throb and we'd have to put up with the romance-of-the-week plot all the time a la Kirk, Riker, etc. This quickly vanished, however, when it turned out Sakai was actually going to have an ongoing role. It's only too bad that she couldn't have been the one in The Gathering as well. It's also too bad we never hear from her again after "Chrysalis" aside from a brief mention by Garibaldi in season 5 of her mysterious disappearance. I know there's the one novel that focuses a bit more on her. I actually own it but have never got around to reading it.

 

[Michael Chris]

Oooh, B5. I'm going to watch it again! Thanks

 

[Elemental]

"Mind War"

"Talia's old Psi Corps instructor, the victim of a secret experiment, is the target of a manhunt involving the Psi-Cops. Catherine wants to survey a promising planet for possible mining, but G'Kar warns her to stay away."

Another quality episode that lays down some important framework. Bester is a great villain and his character grew to be quite important to the show.

Yup, another good episode. Lots of great scenes in this one. One that really stands out for me is Talia's discussion with Sinclair in the tram car about her history with Ironheart. Very atmospheric what with the darkness as the train passes through the tunnels.

This episode is probably weighed down the most by a little too much hammy acting. The female Psi-Cop is your stereotypical evil person with an accent (which B5 had waaay too much of). "Is that clear?" Ugh. Ironheart suffers with the acting bug as well, not to mention a bit from Bester & Talia.

 

[Reverend]

Just for fun I'll see what the League of Non-Alligned Worlds document that Larry DiTillio did has to say about some of the beliefs later on tonight.

Jan

Is that the same material that cropped up in the old "Official Guide" CDROM? For some reason I'd thought JMS had written it.

Anyway, from memory and a few notes I have on had (I've been wiki editing again!) I think it said...

Drazi have 3 main religions: a Warrior religion, a peaceful one (that's the Droshalla/Vorlon one I think) and another one, that I can't rightly recall. Plus there was a minor deity called Shokalla (patron of pilots) the statue to which turned up in General Ivanova's office in SiL as I recall. I wonder if she was still Green Leader.

The Gaim don't believe in religion at all and the Queens tent to eat those that do (presumably on the basis that they don't like competition.) Don't ask me why, but I always liked the Gaim, a shame they weren't used more.

The only Hyach belief was Oshi-ta (something to do with eggs) a male/female creator deity, big on rituals and old people as I recall.

The Yolu religion is basically Jedi, if I remember it right. Right down to the warrior priest/mystical universal energy.

The Brakiri had a bunch of different belifs, mostly "mystical" whatever that means.

The Hurr are as short on spirituality as they are on looks and brains apparantly.

The Abbai have 16 religions, mostly to do with natural elements (wind & water, stone & sand etc.) though there is also a religon that's all about logic (pointy ears optional) and all of their religions are big on tollerance so no pogroms, witch trials, holy wars or burning catholics.

The Grome (hands up who knows which one they are...didn't think so) are multitheistic.

Llort worship Morta, though there's three main differing views on what Morta is exactly. On religon has it as a patriarch, one as a goddess and the other as an all powerful yet genderless deity. It's more of a popularity contest than a religion as a Llort will generally switch to whichever one it thinks all the cool kids belive in.

The Vree belive in an hermaphrodite trickster god...which may explane the the whole probeing and agricultural vandalisum thing.

The Pak'ma'ra don't have an organised religion at all (according to the CD ROM) but instead belive in "ideas" in general, that the spirit exists in thought. Where the singing and inability to eat seafood comes into that is anyone's guess.

The Minbari religion is all about the "soul self"/"universe made manifest" as I'm sure most B5 fans know. All the castes practice it (or not, accorting to the calling of their hearts) the Religious caste is just incharge of preaching and perserving it. Sort of a phylosophy religion that's big on rituals and little triangles covered in bells.

Centauri are pretty straight forward multi-theists that adopt every deity and "elevated" monarch going. They even have an "underworld" god by the name of Morgoth, which should ring a bell with the Tolkien fans.

The Narn religions tend to grow up around prophets, who's follower's belive are directly inspired by a higher power (as we saw with G'Kar.) G'Quan was one such who was around at the same time as Valen (did they ever meet, I wonder?) G'Lann was much more ancient (and may have been a Vorlon) so they're not sure when his teachings were first written. G'Ston who was around 500 years before G'Quan plus I think G'Kar mentioned Na'Kili and "others."

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Just for fun I'll see what the League of Non-Alligned Worlds document that Larry DiTillio did has to say about some of the beliefs later on tonight.

Jan

Is that the same material that cropped up in the old "Official Guide" CDROM? For some reason I'd thought JMS had written it.

Anyway, from memory and a few notes I have on had (I've been wiki editing again!) I think it said...

Drazi have 3 main religions: a Warrior religion, a peaceful one (that's the Droshalla/Vorlon one I think) and another one, that I can't rightly recall. Plus there was a minor deity called Shokalla (patron of pilots) the statue to which turned up in General Ivanova's office in SiL as I recall. I wonder if she was still Green Leader.

How popular is the peaceful religion? Do its participants remain neutral in the brawls? If so, do they not have an official say in politics or government?

The Gaim don't believe in religion at all and the Queens tent to eat those that do (presumably on the basis that they don't like competition.) Don't ask me why, but I always liked the Gaim, a shame they weren't used more.

I recall a Gaim diplomat making a comment along the lines of "May the Queens bless you".

The only Hyach belief was Oshi-ta (something to do with eggs) a male/female creator deity, big on rituals and old people as I recall.

Well, they are a gerentocracy, so that's not surprising.

The Yolu religion is basically Jedi, if I remember it right. Right down to the warrior priest/mystical universal energy.

Does the Mutai count as religious? Are the sands of blood part of their faith? They seemed to take it very seriously.

The Brakiri had a bunch of different belifs, mostly "mystical" whatever that means.

The Day of the Dead, and the omen of the comet that signifies it, seemed pretty universal, though.

The Hurr are as short on spirituality as they are on looks and brains apparantly

The Abbai have 16 religions, mostly to do with natural elements (wind & water, stone & sand etc.) though there is also a religon that's all about logic (pointy ears optional) and all of their religions are big on tollerance so no pogroms, witch trials, holy wars or burning catholics.

The Grome (hands up who knows which one they are...didn't think so) are multitheistic.

I know which ones the Grome are! What do I win?

Llort worship Morta, though there's three main differing views on what Morta is exactly. On religon has it as a patriarch, one as a goddess and the other as an all powerful yet genderless deity. It's more of a popularity contest than a religion as a Llort will generally switch to whichever one it thinks all the cool kids belive in.

The Vree belive in an hermaphrodite trickster god...which may explane the the whole probeing and agricultural vandalisum thing.

Yet they seem to take their business and commerce very seriously...

The Pak'ma'ra don't have an organised religion at all (according to the CD ROM) but instead belive in "ideas" in general, that the spirit exists in thought. Where the singing and inability to eat seafood comes into that is anyone's guess.

The Minbari religion is all about the "soul self"/"universe made manifest" as I'm sure most B5 fans know. All the castes practice it (or not, accorting to the calling of their hearts) the Religious caste is just incharge of preaching and perserving it. Sort of a phylosophy religion that's big on rituals and little triangles covered in bells.

They also believe each generation of souls builds on the preceding one, and to lose a soul- e.g. to the Soul Hunters- is to diminish all Minbari.

Centauri are pretty straight forward multi-theists that adopt every deity and "elevated" monarch going. They even have an "underworld" god by the name of Morgoth, which should ring a bell with the Tolkien fans.

But they also accept the existence of the Great Maker (Londo enjoys taking Its name in vain, anyway)

The Narn religions tend to grow up around prophets, who's follower's belive are directly inspired by a higher power (as we saw with G'Kar.) G'Quan was one such who was around at the same time as Valen (did they ever meet, I wonder?) G'Lann was much more ancient (and may have been a Vorlon) so they're not sure when his teachings were first written. G'Ston who was around 500 years before G'Quan plus I think G'Kar mentioned Na'Kili and "others."

G'Quan was a telepath, so may have been influenced by Vorlons. He was very old when he wrote his book, past child-bearing age.

Great list, by the way! Thanks very much.

 

[Jan]

Thanks, Reverend. That seems to be much the same thing as appeared in Vol. 3 of the Other Voices script books except that it concentrated on the 'lesser' races. It says that the information was compiled by Larry DiTillio so it may have been the product of many discussions about the races.

The only one I see that's missing is the Markab which do not have a concept of a god. They have hundreds of 'religions' which they treat like secret societies which have rituals which allow the Markab to go into spiratual frenzies that release their passions, turmoils, etc.

Deranged Nasat, I'm pretty sure that G'Quan wasn't a telepath himself since he wrote about them after they were all gone.

Jan

 

[Reverend]

I've heard that misconception that G'Quan was telepath before and I think it stems from how G'Kar's quote from the book of G'Quan is phrased: -

"And the spirit of darkness moved upon the land. It screamed in the dreams of the mindwalkers. And they fell, destroyed by it, to their children and their children's children. Then did the darkness come to Narn until it was driven out by G'Quan and the last of the surviving mindwalkers."

Curious thing is that if this was supposed to have been written by G'Quan then for some reason he writes in the third person.

How popular is the peaceful religion? Do its participants remain neutral in the brawls? If so, do they not have an official say in politics or government?

It says's it's gaining popularity, but keep in mind these are still Drazi. Their idea of peaceful co-existance may go something like quietly flushing all the purples out an airlock so they can co-exist in peace.

I recall a Gaim diplomat making a comment along the lines of "May the Queens bless you".

From "No Compromises": -
- The queens thank you for your help in this, Delenn.
- It's not a problem, Lesharr. The Gaim were a great help in our fight against the Shadows and continue to be strong allies under the Alliance. If we can offer further help|to your colonies, let us know.
- Thank you. The queens be with you.

Well, they are a gerentocracy, so that's not surprising.

Does the Mutai count as religious? Are the sands of blood part of their faith? They seemed to take it very seriously.

The Mutai was created as a way to settle differences without resorting to war. As a basic precept, the Yolu belive in the importance of constantly challenging ideas and are big on the achievment of personal excellence, so the Mutai would seam to compliment that basic phylosophy.

The Day of the Dead, and the omen of the comet that signifies it, seemed pretty universal, though.

My personal theory on that is that the comet is actually some ancient First One device, in a (mostly) rational universe how else could the dead return and a whole section of a station be instantly transported to another place?

I know which ones the Grome are! What do I win?

An all you can eat voucher for MacBari's! Try the new spoo flavoured flarn balls!

Yet they seem to take their business and commerce very seriously...

They also believe each generation of souls builds on the preceding one, and to lose a soul- e.g. to the Soul Hunters- is to diminish all Minbari.

I recall "City of Sorrows" had a discussion between Sinclair and Rathan that laid all this out, I forget the details though.

But they also accept the existence of the Great Maker (Londo enjoys taking Its name in vain, anyway)

Like I said, any deity going!

Thanks, Reverend. That seems to be much the same thing as appeared in Vol. 3 of the Other Voices script books except that it concentrated on the 'lesser' races. It says that the information was compiled by Larry DiTillio so it may have been the product of many discussions about the races.

The CD ROM's credits Joeseph Cochrane & J. Michael Straczynski as the writers. No mention of DiTillio that I can find. I imagine there'd been a bunch of notes floating around since pre-season one, from which these were both compiled

The only one I see that's missing is the Markab which do not have a concept of a god. They have hundreds of 'religions' which they treat like secret societies which have rituals which allow the Markab to go into spiratual frenzies that release their passions, turmoils, etc.

That's news to me. Anything else on the Markab? They were totally omitted from the CDROM since it was supposed to have been period specific for late 2261 - early 2262. Same reason there nothing on the Vorlons or Shadows...not that there would be much on them regardless.

 

[trentman359]

"The War Prayer"

"A violent attack on a Minbari poet rocks B5 and leaves Sinclair scrambling to flush out a vicious pro-Earth group. Two star-crossed young Centauri lovers seek Londo's protection. Ivanova is shaken when a man from her past arrives at the outpost."

This was more of a "classic" B5 episode. It felt like there was 10 things going on at the same time.

"My shoes are too tight, but it doesn't matter, because I have forgotten how to dance." I love that line.

 

[Jan]

I love Londo in "The War Prayer". It's one that people complain about at times but for me, if it weren't for episodes like this where we see Londo working to make the youngsters happy while staying within Centauri traditions, I don't think I'd have cared so much when he started down the darker paths.

Reverend, I'll look up the Markab later on.

Jan

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I've heard that misconception that G'Quan was telepath before and I think it stems from how G'Kar's quote from the book of G'Quan is phrased: -

"And the spirit of darkness moved upon the land. It screamed in the dreams of the mindwalkers. And they fell, destroyed by it, to their children and their children's children. Then did the darkness come to Narn until it was driven out by G'Quan and the last of the surviving mindwalkers."

Curious thing is that if this was supposed to have been written by G'Quan then for some reason he writes in the third person.

How popular is the peaceful religion? Do its participants remain neutral in the brawls? If so, do they not have an official say in politics or government?

It says's it's gaining popularity, but keep in mind these are still Drazi. Their idea of peaceful co-existance may go something like quietly flushing all the purples out an airlock so they can co-exist in peace.

I recall a Gaim diplomat making a comment along the lines of "May the Queens bless you".

From "No Compromises": -
- The queens thank you for your help in this, Delenn.
- It's not a problem, Lesharr. The Gaim were a great help in our fight against the Shadows and continue to be strong allies under the Alliance. If we can offer further help|to your colonies, let us know.
- Thank you. The queens be with you.




The Mutai was created as a way to settle differences without resorting to war. As a basic precept, the Yolu belive in the importance of constantly challenging ideas and are big on the achievment of personal excellence, so the Mutai would seam to compliment that basic phylosophy.



My personal theory on that is that the comet is actually some ancient First One device, in a (mostly) rational universe how else could the dead return and a whole section of a station be instantly transported to another place?


An all you can eat voucher for MacBari's! Try the new spoo flavoured flarn balls!



I recall "City of Sorrows" had a discussion between Sinclair and Rathan that laid all this out, I forget the details though.


Like I said, any deity going!

Thanks, Reverend! You are clearly a Babylon Five fan extrordinaire!

Thank you in particular for clearing up G'Quan for me. Maybe a disciple finished the book and recorded the details of G'Quan's last stand in an appendix?

 

[Deranged Nasat]

"My shoes are too tight, but it doesn't matter, because I have forgotten how to dance." I love that line.

I do too. One of my favourite pieces of dialogue, well, ever. The high point of the entire season.

 

[Reverend]

"The War Prayer"

"A violent attack on a Minbari poet rocks B5 and leaves Sinclair scrambling to flush out a vicious pro-Earth group. Two star-crossed young Centauri lovers seek Londo's protection. Ivanova is shaken when a man from her past arrives at the outpost."

This was more of a "classic" B5 episode. It felt like there was 10 things going on at the same time.

"My shoes are too tight, but it doesn't matter, because I have forgotten how to dance." I love that line.

Anyone else notice how most of the main human characters had old flames turn up on the station? All save Franklin & Lyta IIRC.

Reverend, I'll look up the Markab later on.

Jan

Ta.

Thanks, Reverend! You are clearly a Babylon Five fan extrordinaire!

Thank you in particular for clearing up G'Quan for me. Maybe a disciple finished the book and recorded the details of G'Quan's last stand in an appendix?

It's a recent development. I started editing the B5 wiki sometime last summer and have since racked up about 5000 contributions. It was in a bit of a sorry state at the time - the RPG crowd had their sticky fingerprints all over it - so I've been making an effort to turn it into something useful for the average B5 fan. Out of necessity I've done a fair amount of research!

As for G'Quan, it's true that events in Earth holy books tend to be written by people who where not there, or even alive at the time, so the same may be true of Narn. On the other hand, that might be just how ancient Narn grammar worked. Who knows.