Was Joe Haldeman paid to keep quite about RDM's virtuality?

[TheMasterOfOrion]

I liked RDM's Trek work up to a point, he can be great but he can also be very mediocre
I liked the new BSG up to a point (after S2 it becomes a disaster)

However there has always been an element of controversy surrounding Ron D Moore, there has always been something hollyweird dodgy about the way he writes and managed his projects. I'm not talking about his rants against Voyager during interviews or his flaming of Trek actors about how his writing is misunderstood

I'm talking about the whole rip-off, tribute, plagiarism thing following him around since his DS9 days with Wolfe
Voayger was not his or paramounts high point, it could have been done better
done with Trek he then had to follow others around for work on MI2 and Roswell
the plagiarist thing popped up again with Singer's battlestar canceled after 911, the bones of the Singer/DeSanto story shares remarkable similarities with nu-BSG S1-S.
Finally comes Virtuality and a guy called Joe Haldeman threatening on suing them for copyright infringement
http://www.scifinow.co.uk/news/did-ron-moore-rip-off-joe-haldeman/

What happened with Joe Haldeman,
was it all a big deal out of nothing?
or did FOX throw money at him to shut him up?

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Are there more similarities than "ship uses VR on long journey" because that doesn't seem like much of an argument.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Wait, what? I have never heard accusations of RDM being a plagiarist. Believe me, were there any merit to such accusations the naysayers in the BSG forum would be shouting them from the rooftops.

 

[David cgc]

Yes, he did.

"He" being TMOO and "did" being "shout it from the rooftops in the BSG forum."

 

[Lonemagpie]

So, let me get this straight; Joe Haldeman is claiming to have invented the "holodeck-gone-wrong" story in 2005?

 

[sidious618]

The only person who says that RDM plagerizes is you, don't act like it's a widespread thing. Your constant hate against Ron Moore is starting to become tiresome and it feels like every post you make is somehow bashing him.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

From the synopsis I read the VR didn't even fail in the Haldeman story.

EDIT: oops scratch that, I see that it did and people start dying so closer to Virtuality...

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Are there more similarities than "ship uses VR on long journey" because that doesn't seem like much of an argument.

Philip K. Dick got there first. Try A Maze of Death.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

I do really need to read some PKD sometime...

 

[TheMasterOfOrion]

David cgc is on your ignore list.
sidious618 is on your ignore list.

Sorry dudes you guys are on my ignore list, I remember I started to be a harsh critic of battlestar during S3. I did it for a few months in the bbs section but all I got was abuse by people like you

I assume you still are dishing out more of the same

My last posts in the BSG section were probably back in 2007-2008

The threads would have went something like
" Right vs Left problem in BSG "
" how many times did RDM wuss out?"
"has BSG jumped the shark"
"Will they ever do a Singer Remake of the Original"
I expect some kind of critical response but some of you fans were way hardcore and all I got was personal attacks

I'm sorry to say because of my experiences some of you guys will remain on my block list, I don't think I needed to name out people here, you hardcore fans know who you are.
I know some of you guys were Mod warned for your behavior in that section and I assume you still are making personal attacks


Anyhow back to our more regular, polite Trekbbs members who ain't so hardcore
The novel in question is Joe's Old Twentieth

here are some reviews

amazon.co.uk

With more Hugo, Nebula, and other prestigious awards than he can probably keep track of, Joe Haldeman is a modern-day master that needs no introduction to science fiction fans. His 1975 novel, The Forever War, to take just one example, is unquestionably Science Fiction 101 material. In his latest offering, Old Twentieth, he offers a nostalgic look back at the good old twentieth century from a distant future where interstellar travel is practical, warfare is a relic of history, and man has seemingly gained immortality.

As we soon learn, however, this idyllic new world hundreds of years in the future came at the heaviest of prices. Ironically, the seeds of man's self-destruction were sown in its greatest triumph, the Becker-Cendrek Process. With the introduction of the BCP pill, man finally attained the ultimate prize of immortality. You could, of course, still die in some horrible accident or fall victim to some devastating attack, but death by natural causes suddenly became a thing of the past. Unfortunately, only the rich and powerful could afford BCP pills at first, and this eventually led to a cataclysmic war between the haves and have-nots, a war that ended rather suddenly and decisively with the introduction of a biological agent called Lot 92. Seven billion people died, leaving two hundred million immortals to rebuild and move on. It was only natural that this new society would eventually reach for the stars.

Jacob Brewer is one of eight hundred volunteers selected to join a five-ship, one thousand-year mission to the Earth-like planet orbiting Beta Hydrii. His primary responsibility, as chief virtuality engineer, is the management and oversight of the onboard "time machine." This is not a time machine in the technical sense; it's more akin to the holograph decks featured so prominently in Star Trek: The Next Generation. With mind-boggling bits of historical information at its disposal, this machine can, via its virtual reality interface, put you whenever and wherever you want to go in the past. By far, the most popular destinations are to be found in the 1900s, as a majority of these interstellar travelers seem to be fascinated by the prospect of death that defined an individual's life back in Old Twentieth. Fully immersed in the VR experience, you can get yourself killed in the most horrific of ways - only to arise fit as a fiddle at the end of the simulation.

Suddenly, though, the unthinkable happens - a couple of Jacob's clients actually die during VR sessions. As information is slowly exchanged with Earth across the gulf of outer space, Jacob sets out to determine if the machine could have possibly been responsible for these tragedies. As his investigation progresses, he begins to worry that there may in fact be a ghost in the machine - namely, the machine itself. The impossibility of a time machine's Artificial Intelligence somehow attaining sentience on its own starts to lose its foundation when the machine's self-produced avatar sidles up to inform you that the two of you need to have a talk.

Some Haldeman fans aren't all that thrilled about the ending of Old Twentieth, and I have to admit its somewhat open-ended nature isn't as exciting or conclusive as I would have liked, but I think it does make for a satisfactory fit with the story leading up to it - and, make no mistake, this is an author who really knows how to tell a story. The fact that this very good novel proves somewhat disappointing to some of Haldeman's fans just goes to show you how incredibly gifted a writer he really is.

www.amazon.com

___________________________________________
The backstory here is that, following the discovery of medical "immortality", a civil war resulted in the deaths of all 7 billion people who hadn't yet received the (very expensive) treatment, via a precisely-targeted [note 1] war-virus. After the death of 97% of humanity, civilization more-or-less collapses, of an acute shortage of repairmen -- and all the other non-rich folk who kept the machinery running.

The story itself takes place aboard humanity's first starship, launched almost a century after the War. The protagonist operates the ship's "time machine", an elaborate virtuality for exploring history. The machine turns out to have unexpected emergent qualities, which won't surprise the experienced reader.

I'm ambivalent about this one. It's beautifully-written, and far superior to Camouflage, his last. There's some really cool stuff here, especially the emergent AI's strange personality. The ending will forcefully remind you of a classic no-no for beginning writers -- though, in fairness, it is a logical outcome, given the setup. But unsatisfying, dammit. Second-rank Haldeman -- which means it's still pretty darned good: "B+"
Regular Haldeman readers will note his repeated use of historical recreations, Vietnam flashbacks, immortality, graphic violence, and steamy sex. The first four are prominent in _Old Twentieth_, which has some sexy bits as well.

Google for a (very good) full review, by Paul di Filippo, who gives it a "B" : "...this book feels like a slim placeholder between larger works for one of SF's best writers."

_____________________
[1] --which isn't terribly credible, but is fine for a background plot-device.

Happy reading!

why would he think Fox ripped him off?

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Um, Halderman is hardly the first or even one of the few to have this idea. It's everywhere.

I even remember a short story I read as a kid, by Poul Anderson, called The Saturn Game. Basically, the crew members played virtual reality RPGs to maintain their sanity on a long journey to Saturn... and gradually lost grip on what was real and what was the game.

So yeah. Hardly an original idea. No one could say RDM ripped them off on this one.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I just got done slogging thru Virtuality. If RDM wants to plagiarize material, he should find something fresher and more interesting. What a stupid, hackneyed, uninteresting premise for a show.

Honestly, RDM should volunteer to take over Heroes now that Bryan Fuller has fled. He can't make it any worse than it already is, and who knows, he might bring something to the mix.

Joe Haldeman is claiming to have invented the "holodeck-gone-wrong" story in 2005?

Hey, maybe time travel was involved...?

 

[Trubinator]

I liked RDM's Trek work up to a point, he can be great but he can also be very mediocre
I liked the new BSG up to a point (after S2 it becomes a disaster)

However there has always been an element of controversy surrounding Ron D Moore, there has always been something hollyweird dodgy about the way he writes and managed his projects. I'm not talking about his rants against Voyager during interviews or his flaming of Trek actors about how his writing is misunderstood

I'm talking about the whole rip-off, tribute, plagiarism thing following him around since his DS9 days with Wolfe
Voayger was not his or paramounts high point, it could have been done better
done with Trek he then had to follow others around for work on MI2 and Roswell
the plagiarist thing popped up again with Singer's battlestar canceled after 911, the bones of the Singer/DeSanto story shares remarkable similarities with nu-BSG S1-S.
Finally comes Virtuality and a guy called Joe Haldeman threatening on suing them for copyright infringement
http://www.scifinow.co.uk/news/did-ron-moore-rip-off-joe-haldeman/

What happened with Joe Haldeman,
was it all a big deal out of nothing?
or did FOX throw money at him to shut him up?

Quite possibly. RDM has 'some' creative talent within him, but he's always had an easier time borrowing from others than coming up with his own ideas. I hope he gets caught in the future 'cause he needs to be taken down a peg after accepting the constant cocksucking his BSg fans gave him for four years.

 

[sidious618]

Quite possibly. RDM has 'some' creative talent within him, but he's always had an easier time borrowing from others than coming up with his own ideas. I hope he gets caught in the future 'cause he needs to be taken down a peg after accepting the constant cocksucking his BSg fans gave him for four years.

Wow, that's classy. I never realized I was sucking Ron Moore's cock because I always said I loved BSG. I'm glad that I now know better.

 

[Trubinator]

Plenty of people did cocksucking. But you'll realize that nowhere in my post did I mention you by name. If you choose to admit to it, well ... acceptance is key to recovery.

 

[dru]

The only person who says that RDM plagerizes is you, don't act like it's a widespread thing.

BULL. It's been an accusation from the start with his BSG stuff at other BSG boards and sites.

Perhaps not so much on this site but I wouldn't know, not been a longtime dweller in the BSG area here.

He's a hack. He was a hack when he killed Kirk. He was a hack when he started GINO. He is still a hack.

 

[Aragorn]

David cgc is on your ignore list.
sidious618 is on your ignore list.

Sorry dudes you guys are on my ignore list

Yeah, I'm sure they're just hurt beyond words over this. If they're on stj and Captain Robert April's ignore lists too, that would be the hat trick.

 

[Jack Bauer]

I'm more convinced than ever thaat TheMasterOfOrion is a computer program stuck on an endless repeat loop. His vendeta against Ron Moore is extremely tiresome. Every post of his seems to be an attack on Moore's character and professionalism. It's really nauseating and unfair. There's no evidence Moore has plagerized anything.

 

[Starkers]

As far as I can tell the only person RDM seems to obviously plagerise is himself...

 

[Christopher]

I'm talking about the whole rip-off, tribute, plagiarism thing following him around since his DS9 days with Wolfe
Voayger was not his or paramounts high point, it could have been done better
done with Trek he then had to follow others around for work on MI2 and Roswell

My, what complete gibberish. Moore was on Voyager for only a few weeks before he walked away in disgust, so it's pretty silly to hold that show against him when he's much more strongly associated with TNG and DS9.


As for Haldeman's complaint, it makes little sense, since it's hardly a unique idea. Heck, I've been dabbling with story ideas about starship crews using VR for years, though nothing ever came of it. It's one of those ideas that's obvious enough that it's inevitably going to occur to a lot of people independently. If a crew is on a long, slow interstellar mission, they're going to need entertainment and variety, and these days it's a pretty obvious assumption that they'd get it through VR. And of course if you're going to do a story focusing on a spaceship crew's use of VR, naturally something's going to go wrong with it, because stories are about things going wrong.