The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

[Locutus of Bored]

We must restore vulcan. Vulcan was at the core of Gene Roddenberry's vision.
www.restorevulcan.com

Together we can have an action film that also respects the vision of the past.

Live long and prosper

Anthony

It took me thirty years of fake counseling to finally get over the imaginary post-traumatic stress from the destruction of Alderaan, and now to have JJ Abrams conduct this ruthless assault on the heartland of our beloved fictional Federation... it's just too much for me to bear.

Keep fighting the good fight, sir. Though we may have suffered the illusion of being bloodied, our imaginary spirit remains unbroken.

 

[Australis]

Hmmmmmmmm, some more of that thinly veiled sarcasm, I think.

 

[SalvorHardin]

 

[indranee]

 

[3D Master]

Hell, I'll bet that they did the whole "alternate timeline" thing for the sole purpose of letting the fans know that they can go to sleep at night with the knowledge that their favorite universe is still intact somewhere. I'm fine with Amanda being dead, I'm fine with Vulcan being gone, i'm fine with two Spocks, and I would be ok if there was more major changes in the next movie. I nominate the Russian wizz-kid, Ensign Chirpov ( ) for the next casualty.

Except that they didn't do the whole "alternate reality" thing, they did indeed do an "alternate timeline" thing, aka, the old timeline is gone, destroyed, changed, now the alternate timeline exists;

Wrong.

Nope.

Wrong again.

Nope again.

This is what Spock described - a changed timeline, the old one being gone and destroyed.

And wrong yet again.

You should rewatch the movie and take note of what Spock's actually saying, because nope yet again.

Uhura then just pulls the term "alternate reality" out of her ass that has nothing to do with anything that Spock just said, and for some reason Spock just agrees with her.

He agrees with her because that is what happened.

Nope, once again. That did not happen. Time got changed, Spock says so himself. Of course, seeing all the problems with the original timeline even before Nero changed time, it's more like that Nero and Spock entered an alternate reality and due to their arrival THAT reality's timeline got changed, but an alternate reality did not get created by Nero's and Spock's (inter-reality) time travel

 

[Hartzilla2007]

We must restore vulcan. Vulcan was at the core of Gene Roddenberry's vision.
www.restorevulcan.com

Together we can have an action film that also respects the vision of the past.

Live long and prosper

Anthony

Gene Roddenberry's vision also included love instructors, TOS as exaggerated propaganda, Kirk as a primitive human named after some guy his mom slept with years before his birth, Starfleet Command placing cybernetic implants in the brains of Starfleet captains, and as near as I can tell humans existing in some kind of psychicly connected orgy. Should Abrams being doing that as well?

 

[number6]

Except that they didn't do the whole "alternate reality" thing, they did indeed do an "alternate timeline" thing, aka, the old timeline is gone, destroyed, changed, now the alternate timeline exists;

Wrong.

Nope.



Nope again.



You should rewatch the movie and take note of what Spock's actually saying, because nope yet again.

Uhura then just pulls the term "alternate reality" out of her ass that has nothing to do with anything that Spock just said, and for some reason Spock just agrees with her.

He agrees with her because that is what happened.

Nope, once again. That did not happen. Time got changed, Spock says so himself. Of course, seeing all the problems with the original timeline even before Nero changed time, it's more like that Nero and Spock entered an alternate reality and due to their arrival THAT reality's timeline got changed, but an alternate reality did not get created by Nero's and Spock's (inter-reality) time travel

You are wrong. The new timeline was created by Nero's time travel. The movie takes place entirely in this new timeline. The old timeline still exists and is alive and well. It is not only clearly stated in the film, but it had been clearly stated by the writers.

If you weren't so consumed with hatred and finding things to complain about, you may have noticed this rather important plot point.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

If you weren't so consumed with hatred and finding things to complain about, you may have noticed this rather important plot point.

As we've found in Buffy threads over and over, writer's intentions mean nothing to him, only what he took from it.

Personally I can't understand why people must see this as a problem. It's not like, even if the timeline was erased, all our memories and DVDs, etc. disappear with it.

 

[Trent Roman]

Time got changed, Spock says so himself. Of course, seeing all the problems with the original timeline even before Nero changed time, it's more like that Nero and Spock entered an alternate reality and due to their arrival THAT reality's timeline got changed, but an alternate reality did not get created by Nero's and Spock's (inter-reality) time travel

3D Master is correct. Nero's ship went through the wormhole first, then Spock's ship traveled to a reality where Nero's changes had already taken effect. If the wormhole simply went into the past, and that past continued to exist unaffected by the presence of Nero and his vessel, then Spock shouldn't have arrived in a reality where Nero was present--they both would have spawned their respective continuities on arriving in the past of the original timeline. As far as I can tell, there are basically three possibilities to resolving this, in order of least to most preferred (to me):

1) Nero and Spock were both sent back in time in the original timeline, which means previous events were suppressed, no matter what the hacks behind the movie say elsewhere;

2) The wormhole was a gateway to a proximate parallel reality rather than the past of our own continuity, and so there's no overwriting of history because the universe Nero emerged in was always already a different one;

3) Combination of (1) and (2): everything in the film takes place in an alternate reality, including the only sketchily described 24th-century portions; so while Spock and Nero do overwrite history, it was never 'our' Spock, 'our' Nero, nor 'our' history.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Time got changed, Spock says so himself. Of course, seeing all the problems with the original timeline even before Nero changed time, it's more like that Nero and Spock entered an alternate reality and due to their arrival THAT reality's timeline got changed, but an alternate reality did not get created by Nero's and Spock's (inter-reality) time travel

3D Master is correct. Nero's ship went through the wormhole first, then Spock's ship traveled to a reality where Nero's changes had already taken effect. If the wormhole simply went into the past, and that past continued to exist unaffected by the presence of Nero and his vessel, then Spock shouldn't have arrived in a reality where Nero was present--they both would have spawned their respective continuities on arriving in the past of the original timeline. As far as I can tell, there are basically three possibilities to resolving this, in order of least to most preferred (to me):

1) Nero and Spock were both sent back in time in the original timeline, which means previous events were suppressed, no matter what the hacks behind the movie say elsewhere;

2) The wormhole was a gateway to a proximate parallel reality rather than the past of our own continuity, and so there's no overwriting of history because the universe Nero emerged in was always already a different one;

3) Combination of (1) and (2): everything in the film takes place in an alternate reality, including the only sketchily described 24th-century portions; so while Spock and Nero do overwrite history, it was never 'our' Spock, 'our' Nero, nor 'our' history.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

Or 4) The writers decided to use modern Quantum theory and in one case actually have Trek use accurate science in this one case shocking as that apparently is to some people.

 

[FailedLurker]

Personally I can't understand why people must see this as a problem. It's not like, even if the timeline was erased, all our memories and DVDs, etc. disappear with it.

A-freaking-men. Guess what folks: NEITHER timeline exists! Neither does the timeline where Dr. Sam Beckett awoke to find himself trapped in the past, nor the timeline where the taxation of trade routes to outlaying star systems was in dispute, nor the timeline where Babylon 5 was the last of the Babylon stations, nor the timeline where a man named Brady was busy raising boys of his own. It's all fiction!

The only place any of this stuff exists is in our heads, and in the stories told about them. No new story is going to erase our heads, and no new story is going to erase the old stories. NuTrek doesn't erase OldTrek any more than NuBSG erased OldBSG, any more than Christian Bale Batman erased Michael Keaton Batman, any more than Michael Keaton Batman erased Adam West Batman, any more than Michael Bay Transformers erased any of the myriad other incarnations of Transformers. It's all still there to enjoy. Now go, be at peace, and enjoy whatever the hell Trek you want.

 

[Trent Roman]

[EDIT: To Hartzilla] Except that it fails to account for why Spock arrived in the same timeline as Nero, which was the point of the previous post (do try and keep up). Where the black hole created a singularity into the past, and the two vessels went through seperately, quantum theory would have had both Nero and Spock spawning divergeant timelines at their respective points of arrival in the past of the original timeline, independant of each other.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Hartzilla2007]

[EDIT: To Hartzilla] Except that it fails to account for why Spock arrived in the same timeline as Nero, which was the point of the previous post (do try and keep up). Where the black hole created a singularity into the past, and the two vessels went through seperately, quantum theory would have had both Nero and Spock spawning divergeant timelines at their respective points of arrival in the past of the original timeline, independant of each other.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

Fine whatever so the old timeline is gone and Spock Prime set up everything in the to at least be CLOSE to TOS, I ready don't see a problem with the rest of it gone except maybe DS9 and the good parts of TNG.

 

[FailedLurker]

Nero's ship went through the wormhole first, then Spock's ship traveled to a reality where Nero's changes had already taken effect. If the wormhole simply went into the past, and that past continued to exist unaffected by the presence of Nero and his vessel, then Spock shouldn't have arrived in a reality where Nero was present--they both would have spawned their respective continuities on arriving in the past of the original timeline.

I think Spock's time travel in this movie is similar to the time travel in FC, where the Enterprise was able to observe the changes to the timeline around them while being unaffected by it, and then go into the past and arrive in the save timeline as the Borg who had preceded them. The Enterprise due to its proximity to the Borg's temporal vortex, and presumably Spock due to his proximity to the black hole, were both protected by the NotSIF, the Needs of the Story Integrity Field.

2) The wormhole was a gateway to a proximate parallel reality rather than the past of our own continuity, and so there's no overwriting of history because the universe Nero emerged in was always already a different one;

FWIW I basically agree with this interpretation. I think the differences shown were too fundamental to be only 25 years post-POD, not to mention differemces that preceded Nero's arrival.

 

[Trent Roman]

Fine whatever so the old timeline is gone and Spock Prime set up everything in the to at least be CLOSE to TOS, I ready don't see a problem with the rest of it gone except maybe DS9 and the good parts of TNG.

*shrug* If that's what rocks your boat, whatever. Me, I like most of the original timeline so I prefer to go with options (2) or (3).

I think Spock's time travel in this movie is similar to the time travel in FC, where the Enterprise was able to observe the changes to the timeline around them while being unaffected by it, and then go into the past and arrive in the save timeline as the Borg who had preceded them. The Enterprise due to its proximity to the Borg's temporal vortex, and presumably Spock due to his proximity to the black hole, were both protected by the NotSIF, the Needs of the Story Integrity Field.

That is something I'd considered. The Ent-E was caught in a chroniton wake or some such thing that shielded it from the effects of the timeline changing by the Borg. If Spock was past the black hole's event horizon when Nero's ship went through (which I consider highly likely considering that they appeared to go through within seconds of each other, whereas if Spock had originally been outside the event horizon he should have perceived Nero's ship as falling into the singularity for much longer), then he would have been caught in the black hole's area of time dilation, which nominally shields him from any exterior changes. In that respect, the time travel in both films could be comparable. The problem remains, however, that while the wormhole in FC sent both ships to the same location in terms of space/time, the black hole in Abrams' Product did not. In FC, changing the past overrode the timeline (which, as has been pointed out, is not the correct quantum concept, but the film in internally consistent on this point), so even though there were a few seconds' disparity between the Borg and the Ent-E going through, they wind up in the same place because there's only the one timeline. However, if one accepts the alternate timeline thing in the most recent film, then in the seconds between Nero's ship passing through and Spock's ship passing through the destination of the wormhole has suddenly changed, not just in terms of space and time, but reality as well--where before it only went to the past and somewhere near Federation space, now it would lead to a whole new continuum. Of course, one could just say that the black hole went to the same reality, but that would mean losing the original timeline since Spock emerged into a changed timeline, unless, as suggested, the destination or even the source were different realities to begin with.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Fine whatever so the old timeline is gone and Spock Prime set up everything in the to at least be CLOSE to TOS, I ready don't see a problem with the rest of it gone except maybe DS9 and the good parts of TNG.

*shrug* If that's what rocks your boat, whatever. Me, I like most of the original timeline so I prefer to go with options (2) or (3).

Actually since since I have a choice in the matter (did not know that from most of the arguing going on) I'm going with 5) I really don't give a shit about the whole thing and wish the subject would die a quick and painful death and go back to enjoying the new movie and the still continuing book line.

 

[3D Master]

You are wrong. The new timeline was created by Nero's time travel. The movie takes place entirely in this new timeline. The old timeline still exists and is alive and well. It is not only clearly stated in the film, but it had been clearly stated by the writers.

If you weren't so consumed with hatred and finding things to complain about, you may have noticed this rather important plot point.

Nope, you are wrong. And I did notice the plot point, in fact if you had read my review, you would have noticed me taking this bullshit down.

First, there is NO SUCH THING as one time line existing while another exists. A timeline GETS REPLACED by another timeline.

You can have entirely different realities existing side by side, but that's a whole other matter. They are two different things. A reality has its own timeline that can be changed, yes changed, through time travel.

And if you had bothered to pay attention to the movie, you would have known, that Uhura names the term, "Alternate REALITY". NOT timeline. HOWEVER, Spock before that, is only talking about TIME having been changed, and it no longer being the same, therefor neither they nor Nero can know what will happen in the future. But a changed time/past/timeline does NOT equal an entirely different reality, an entirely different parallel universe.

The two are entirely different things, and Uhura's mentioning out of the terms, was done pulling it out of her ass. It is something completely different to what Spock was saying.

Or 4) The writers decided to use modern Quantum theory and in one case actually have Trek use accurate science in this one case shocking as that apparently is to some people.

Bullshit.

1. There is no such thing as a quantum theory on alternate realities as caused by time travel.

2. Spock did not describe a new reality splitting off from an original reality as caused by time travel, he was talking all about how the timeline got changed and it is now different - directly speaking AGAINST the time travel mechanism of creating alternate realities through time travel. Uhura then for no reason at all yanks the term "alternate reality" out of her ass.

[EDIT: To Hartzilla] Except that it fails to account for why Spock arrived in the same timeline as Nero, which was the point of the previous post (do try and keep up). Where the black hole created a singularity into the past, and the two vessels went through seperately, quantum theory would have had both Nero and Spock spawning divergeant timelines at their respective points of arrival in the past of the original timeline, independant of each other.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

Fine whatever so the old timeline is gone and Spock Prime set up everything in the to at least be CLOSE to TOS, I ready don't see a problem with the rest of it gone except maybe DS9 and the good parts of TNG.

Except that,

a. he set nothing up.

b. if he had set things up close to TOS, Kirk would be promoted to lieutenant and be on the Farragut, Checkov would still be in the academy (or not even in it yet), Uhura would be nowhere near the Enterprise, Pike would still be captain of the Enterprise, Sulu would not be on the Enterprise, neither would Scotty be, and CMO of the Enterprice would NOT be McCoy. Kirk wouldn't be the captain of the Enterprise for another 6 or 7 years.

Or in other words; if Spock did anything, he made it VERY FAR AWAY from TOS.

Nero's ship went through the wormhole first, then Spock's ship traveled to a reality where Nero's changes had already taken effect. If the wormhole simply went into the past, and that past continued to exist unaffected by the presence of Nero and his vessel, then Spock shouldn't have arrived in a reality where Nero was present--they both would have spawned their respective continuities on arriving in the past of the original timeline.

I think Spock's time travel in this movie is similar to the time travel in FC, where the Enterprise was able to observe the changes to the timeline around them while being unaffected by it, and then go into the past and arrive in the save timeline as the Borg who had preceded them. The Enterprise due to its proximity to the Borg's temporal vortex, and presumably Spock due to his proximity to the black hole, were both protected by the NotSIF, the Needs of the Story Integrity Field.

Which would result in a timeline that got changed, and the timeline that came before to be GONE. It would NOT mean there's a new alternate reality created while the old reality continues on.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

You know there is one simple way to end this debate once and for all that I can't believe everyone missed especially the canon fanatics. Since in a multiverse every possibility exists in a different universe there is a universe exactly like the Prime universe except that Spock and Nero weren't sucked into the blackhole and did not go back in time, hell there are even universes where the supernova didn't occur or Spock stoped it from destroying Romulus, so problem solved as the Prime Universe still exists in some form.

Didn't think of that one did you.

 

[trampledamage]

Nope, you are wrong. And I did notice the plot point, in fact if you had read my review, you would have noticed me taking this bullshit down.

First, there is NO SUCH THING as one time line existing while another exists. A timeline GETS REPLACED by another timeline.

Oh for goodness sake, how the hell do you - or anyone else - know actually how time travel works?

It's made up!

It's fiction!

This movie can make time travel do whatever the hell it wants.


I'm with Hartzilla2007, I couldn't care less how it works or what was created. I like the new movie, I like the old stuff, and hey guess what? I can enjoy them both at the same time.

 

[number6]

The writers took inspiration from the TNG Episode "Parallels" and the theory of quantum mechanics... There are no absolute rules about time travel as it relates to Quantum Theory, just a bunch of opinions and until time travel is possible and people do it on a regular basis, who can really say that this movie did it right or wrong and what makes someone like 3D the arbiter of such things in the first place??

This film didn't do what every Trek series and film has done with respect to time travel: There is no reset button. The timeline of this alternate reality is altered, but not reset. That leaves the producers not only to carve a new path for these characters, but also to take familiar Trek concepts and turn them on their head.

I think that opens up some interesting possibilities for future films under this creative team.