Babylon 5 (4th trip)

[trentman359]

Nice! I don't really watch at a steady pace, so bear with me.

"Soul Hunter"

Delenn is in danger when a soul hunter, an alien who captures the souls of the dying, arrives at the station.

Dr. Franklin arrives. Biggs was a great addition to the cast. He was a better actor than Dr. Kyle. His speech about death and how short life is was very poignant. Its a shame he died so young.

 

[Bri]

Your friends must have been very astute then. Not only is the line barely discernable in the audio mix,

I think some people hear better than others! I also think people listen to the audio on different equipment. I saw you mention in another thread how a re-imagined B5 could have a "real orchestral score". This was amusing to me, considering there is a 110 piece orchestra playing along to all of those synth patches! To be fair, I'm a composer and have a very developed ear, so it stands out like a sore thumb to me.

Some of the people I reference who caught this are also musicians, come to think of it, since the music of this series was so killer it was a good draw in. I got a few people to watch this series right after they heard the first Chris Franke cd I played for them.

A few were just astute Trek fans who were taping the series. The first time they heard "In Valens Name" they went right back to the pilot. Yes these people were fanatical, no they do not represent the average tv viewer, but neither of these facts refute my point, namely, it was an unnecessary line that bothered me. I started out the comment originally by saying "it was one thing about the reedited Gathering that I didn't like". In every other way the re-edited Gathering was much much better than the original.

That's all!

Bri

 

[Bri]

Nice! I don't really watch at a steady pace, so bear with me.

"Soul Hunter"

Delenn is in danger when a soul hunter, an alien who captures the souls of the dying, arrives at the station.

Dr. Franklin arrives. Biggs was a great addition to the cast. He was a better actor than Dr. Kyle. His speech about death and how short life is was very poignant. Its a shame he died so young.

They're USING YOU!!!!

Regarding Richard Biggs, I have a very wierd story for all of you.

I met Richard Biggs during that little promotional B5 tour that TNT put on. This was after "Sleeping in Light" had been filmed, but nothing from Season 5 had aired yet.

When I walked up to him, I jokingly said to him..

"Ok I know you aren't going to tell me anything about the finale, but can you at least tell me if your character received a decent end?"

To this he laughed. I then said...

"You didn't die did you????"

He laughed again, and said

"I don't die, I live forever dammit!!!"



Richard died a few years later. I was bugging out, seriously. My friend, who was with me at this, had my video camera, and taped the entire thing. I've been looking for that tape too recently, soon as I find it maybe ill encode that little clip and throw it on youtube or something.

Wierd and true.

Bri

 

[David cgc]

Dr. Franklin arrives.

I quite liked that scene, specifically the implication that Sinclair and Franklin already knew each other, because it was one of those moments when Babylon 5 suggested a bigness to the universe, that the world kept going on outside the bounds of the TV frame and the one hour a week we saw of it. It makes sense, of course, that the show would be particularly good at it, since telling the story of a big world through a small lens was the entire premise.

It was probably the lack of attendant exposition and drama that made it seem so much more natural and work so much better than some other examples from the show (I'm thinking specifically of Sheridan already knowing Ivanova and Lochley, which had quite a bit more of the famed Babylon 5 stiltedness).

 

[Reverend]

Your friends must have been very astute then. Not only is the line barely discernable in the audio mix,

I think some people hear better than others! I also think people listen to the audio on different equipment. I saw you mention in another thread how a re-imagined B5 could have a "real orchestral score". This was amusing to me, considering there is a 110 piece orchestra playing along to all of those synth patches! To be fair, I'm a composer and have a very developed ear, so it stands out like a sore thumb to me.

Some of the people I reference who caught this are also musicians, come to think of it, since the music of this series was so killer it was a good draw in. I got a few people to watch this series right after they heard the first Chris Franke cd I played for them.

A few were just astute Trek fans who were taping the series. The first time they heard "In Valens Name" they went right back to the pilot. Yes these people were fanatical, no they do not represent the average tv viewer, but neither of these facts refute my point, namely, it was an unnecessary line that bothered me. I started out the comment originally by saying "it was one thing about the reedited Gathering that I didn't like". In every other way the re-edited Gathering was much much better than the original.

That's all!

Bri

Regarding the early give-away, I think it's only fair to let JMS answer : -
(from JMSNews)

No, the whole point of a mystery done *right* is that some folks won't ever figure it out, a majority of them will have some vague ideas, and some *will* figure it out. That's the only outcome -- a bell-shaped curve -- if you're playing fair with the audience. The clues have to be out there, and if they are, some will notice. If nobody gets it, you didn't play fair. This was one of the lessons I learned working on MURDER, SHE WROTE.

jms
​

As far as "The Gathering" goes, the only real problem I have is with the Gorilla tending bar. I mean come on, really? Oh and the horrible music...the uber moody lighting that's going to give everyone eyestrain...the muppets in the alien sector and yes, just about everything to do with Delenn.
Say what you will about B5, they knew when they'd made a mistake.

 

[Jan]

Your friends must have been very astute then. Not only is the line barely discernable in the audio mix, but "Entilzah" and "Valen" are proper nouns not heard again nor defined until much later in the series, if I'm not mistaken (I don't have the quick access to the script books and encylopedic knowledge of Jan to be absolutely sure).

'Valen' was first heard in "Parliament of Dreams" and 'Entil-zha' was first heard in "War Without End - Part 1"

Jan
Encyclopedia on call

 

[Candlelight]

"Midnight on the Firing Line"

"When the Narn attack a Centauri colony, Londo and G'Kar nearly come to blows. Meanwhile, raiders are attacking transport ships near the station."

Now this is a better start for the show. All the political intrigue is there and Sinclair is obviously not going to take crap from anyone. Its hard to believe that from the very first episode that things are said that turn out to be true. It must have taken JMS quite some time to plan out the series.

This episode was actually better than I expected. I went through the whole series again two years ago and when I watched this I thought it was gonna drag, but about half way through everything picked up and it was great. It's a great little 'template' episode that covers much of the first year+ of the show.

I have never seen the updated version of The Gathering. I must buy the movie collection on DVD one day.

And Crusade.

 

[happydave]

Spoiler: Kosh

"Entilzah Valen", that kinda ruins the whole reveal in "War Without End"!

It doesn't ruin anything, since there's no way in hell someone who didn't have the line pointed out to them would think it's anything more than random alien sounds.

For those who aren't on their first time through, it's a nice early connection. Nothing more.

I would basically agree, on first watching you just put it down to "another alien word I don't know" (much like watching Klingons in the newer Star Treks, when you first see them, you have no idea what they're saying but after a while you start to pick up their language.) and by the time you learn what it means that line in The Gathering is forgotten, so on second viewing it's a bit of a shock to hear it spoken to early in the series.

 

[Harvey]

I think some people hear better than others! I also think people listen to the audio on different equipment.

Quite true. I've never heard the series on proper equipment, but that's no excuse.

I saw you mention in another thread how a re-imagined B5 could have a "real orchestral score". This was amusing to me, considering there is a 110 piece orchestra playing along to all of those synth patches! To be fair, I'm a composer and have a very developed ear, so it stands out like a sore thumb to me.

I must admit, this is news to me, although considering the number of Babylon 5 soundtracks I own with the words "Christopher Franke and the Berlin Symphony Film Orchestra" on the front, there's no excuse. To form a somewhat tattered defense, I point to these filmtracks reviews here and here that continually refer to Franke's music as "synthetic" and "electronically creative."

A few were just astute Trek fans who were taping the series. The first time they heard "In Valens Name" they went right back to the pilot. Yes these people were fanatical, no they do not represent the average tv viewer, but neither of these facts refute my point, namely, it was an unnecessary line that bothered me.

Perhaps. I think Straczynski's own defense of the choice makes sense, although the fact that it was a change from the original version does make me question if it was his original intent, and the fact that he's suggested that In the Beginning be watched first make me question how invested he was in the mystery as the show went along.

And when I say your friends are astute, I don't mean to flippant. Picking up details like this on first viewing is far more than I was able to do watching for the first time!

 

[Bri]

that continually refer to Franke's music as "synthetic" and "electronically creative."

Oh, there's an absolute crapload of synth layers over all of it. Truly wicked stuff. He's a huge influence on my own writing, and he has been for a long time. I remember the first time I heard "Mind War", with a pair of studio headphones. The panning delay on the synth piano is absolutely scary as hell once you hear it. This is just a minor digital effect! Just by watching the series, you would never even know it was there. TONS of depth and layers to everything. I own several soundtracks of his, but those first 2 collections he put together, where he edited several cues together to make longer pieces, are among my favorite discs of all time.

A great example of the difference between what he did and somebody who ONLY uses synth though, is Crusade. I hated the music in Crusade and in "A Call to Arms", compared to Chris it was amateur hour!

Perhaps. I think Straczynski's own defense of the choice makes sense, although the fact that it was a change from the original version does make me question if it was his original intent, and the fact that he's suggested that In the Beginning be watched first make me question how invested he was in the mystery as the show went along.

The first season is most certainly the weakest, on performance and production levels, and watching the prequel first definately gives a little idea of what's going to happen. It definitely makes it easier, but the payoff nowhere near as rewarding.

When I went on my personal crusade to get as many people as possible to watch this series, I told them to do one of 2 things. Watch the prequel if they didn't want to scratch their heads for a bit, but don't watch it first if you want to try and figure everything out. Most took my advice and skipped In the Beginning. I should also mention why I was able to tell so many people about all of this stuff, and get as much feedback about what people were able to figure out. From 1994-2005 I ran a collectables store in New York, and had quite a following of customers during those years. I was the nut wearing B5 polo shirts and everything! I told everybody who would listen about how insanely great it was, and many listened and tried the series out. People would run in the store near daily saying things to me like... "Ok WHAT did Kosh say to Sinclair during the flashback sequence in the pilot?"

I agree with you about how invested Joe was in mystery, because it was mostly the first season that had it. After this, it was more about unfolding story arcs than guessing games and clues. Musta been his Murder, She Wrote influence during that early stuff!

And when I say your friends are astute, I don't mean to flippant. Picking up details like this on first viewing is far more than I was able to do watching for the first time!

They had a little help from me, but I didn't give away stuff either. Kept them coming in and spending money lol, so my crusade had a twofold purpose.

Bri

 

[Harvey]

I own several soundtracks of his, but those first 2 collections he put together, where he edited several cues together to make longer pieces, are among my favorite discs of all time.

I have the two compilations, which I quite enjoy (although I was quite surprised to find that Severed Dreams is not served well in isolation from the episode, an interesting example of music that is best when serving images), as well as a few of the episodic releases. I scratch my head trying to figure out which ones I own (my collection, at present, is on the other side of the country), so let me ask you, are any of these episodic discs worth looking out for? If so, which ones?

A great example of the difference between what he did and somebody who ONLY uses synth though, is Crusade. I hated the music in Crusade and in "A Call to Arms", compared to Chris it was amateur hour!

I have mixed feelings about Franke's music. Sometimes I enjoyed it, sometimes it was intrusive. But my feelings are not mixed at all when it comes to Chen's music for Crusade. Unlistenable, and uncomplimentary to the images. I don't know what Straczynski heard in it, other than something that was different than Franke.

When I went on my personal crusade to get as many people as possible to watch this series, I told them to do one of 2 things. Watch the prequel if they didn't want to scratch their heads for a bit, but don't watch it first if you want to try and figure everything out. Most took my advice and skipped In the Beginning.

I think you're absolutely right there. The first season is a bit of a struggle to get through at first, but that struggle pays off later. And your shop sounds like it would have been a fun place to stop by!

They had a little help from me, but I didn't give away stuff either. Kept them coming in and spending money lol, so my crusade had a twofold purpose.

It definitely helps having someone on hand to constantly remind that the details on the show matter. I've come to expect that from more recent television, but Babylon 5 definitely lead the way in this regard.

 

[Bri]

I have the two compilations, which I quite enjoy (although I was quite surprised to find that Severed Dreams is not served well in isolation from the episode, an interesting example of music that is best when serving images), as well as a few of the episodic releases. I scratch my head trying to figure out which ones I own (my collection, at present, is on the other side of the country), so let me ask you, are any of these episodic discs worth looking out for? If so, which ones?

Sleeping In Light has the one theme that really kills me(it's also on Objects at Rest), and I also like Falling Toward Apotheosis quite a bit. I'm more into those first 2 compilations/edits though, and I really wanted a volume 3. Him releasing episodic discs was a marketing decision clearly, and he also didn't have to work extra hard blending themes into long pieces!

my feelings are not mixed at all when it comes to Chen's music for Crusade. Unlistenable, and uncomplimentary to the images. I don't know what Straczynski heard in it, other than something that was different than Franke.

Yup and yup. I recall a lurkers guide post where Joe stated exactly that. UGH!! To me it's like doing Star Wars without John Williams.

I think you're absolutely right there. The first season is a bit of a struggle to get through at first, but that struggle pays off later. And your shop sounds like it would have been a fun place to stop by!

Aye, it was. Getting out of the business was a good idea though, since my primary revenue came from cash pay outs for used video games, and subsequent turnover. At the time, I was the only one doing this in the entire area. Several years after I was doing this, Gamestop started doing it too, and then they bought EB. It was time to get out!

It definitely helps having someone on hand to constantly remind that the details on the show matter. I've come to expect that from more recent television, but Babylon 5 definitely lead the way in this regard.

I consider B5 to be the show that changed the face of US tv forever, and almost never gets credit for it.

Bri

 

[Jan]

JMS had some interesting things to say about the Crusade music in the podcast interview he gave last week. Part 1 of the two-hour session is up now at http://www.babylonpodcast.com/ . I don't know if the discussion of Chen's music is in the first part or if it will be in the second part up next week.

Jan

 

[Bri]

JMS had some interesting things to say about the Crusade music in the podcast interview he gave last week. Part 1 of the two-hour session is up now at http://www.babylonpodcast.com/ . I don't know if the discussion of Chen's music is in the first part or if it will be in the second part up next week.

Jan

Wow. That was very insightful. I'm looking forward to Lensman!

Joe talking about the WB corporate mandate, and the truth about TNT really shows just how much artistic integrity can be completely compromised by the financial logistics, and agendas. TNT killed Crusade utterly and completely!

I also loved the points regarding DS9 and paramount. hehe

Regarding Chen's music, I'm glad Joe admits it was a mistake.

Bri

 

[trentman359]

Boy, I'm gonna have a hard time keeping up with this thread. My DS9 thread didn't see this kind of action.

I must say that I love Franke's music. He put a solid stamp on the show with great themes. Sure it's synth-y, but it fits perfectly. I think its one of the best examples of television scoring.

I forgot to mention how great it is that the show is in wide screen. "The Gathering" was not and the series was. I have a widescreen tv and it was great to final use it. I was used to watching DS9 in 4:3.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

I have mixed feelings about Franke's music. Sometimes I enjoyed it, sometimes it was intrusive.

I'm the same way. Franke has some good moments, but on the whole I find his music to be pedestrian, and much prefer Stewart Coppland's score to "The Gathering."

The original "Gathering" score had more of a kinetic energy that avoided a lot of the cliche bombastic music found in Franke's scores.

Franke always goes with the more obvious and loud operatic music that directs my emotions rather than compliment them. It tells me that I should feel "this" in a scene rather than enhancing the drama as it plays out. As Harvey states, it is intrusive, especially in the first season.

Franke's score for "Sleeping in Light," however, is his best work on the series. Moreover, at least Babylon 5 is daring in its use of music unlike it's Trek contemporaries.

 

[Jan]

I agree that Franke's music could be intrusive in the first season but later on there were points where it was just perfect. Sleeping in light was an example but there were many more, often the quiet moments where the music says what the actors are feeling.

Jan

 

[Bri]

I'm the same way. Franke has some good moments, but on the whole I find his music to be pedestrian, and much prefer Stewart Coppland's score to "The Gathering."

LOL!! I'm not going to touch that one.

Bri

 

[Bri]

Boy, I'm gonna have a hard time keeping up with this thread. My DS9 thread didn't see this kind of action.

I must say that I love Franke's music. He put a solid stamp on the show with great themes. Sure it's synth-y, but it fits perfectly. I think its one of the best examples of television scoring.

Yup.

Bri

 

[trentman359]

Franke always goes with the more obvious and loud operatic music that directs my emotions rather than compliment them. It tells me that I should feel "this" in a scene rather than enhancing the drama as it plays out. As Harvey states, it is intrusive, especially in the first season.

You say that like its a bad thing.