Is Trek obsolete?

[Warped9]

As much as I love, admire and cherish TOS and other aspects of Trek I can also see that some if not many of its perspectives on the future are getting really out of date. I'm not talking about visualization and production standards. I'm talking about some of the ideas. I recall the criticisms of TNG when it was new in regard to it not really impressing as convincingly more evolved than TOS. And none of the subsequent Treks were really any more evolved rthan TNG. TMP is really the only one that appeared to try to really move Trek forward and yet even it was limited.

TV and film SF generally lags about 10-20 years or so behind much of what's being addressed in SF literature and real world science speculation. If I were creating a Star Trek today there are things I'd definitely consider doing differently. Mind you film and TV SF are often distilled for the general audience of which fresh SF literature and cutting edge science speculation are generally not aimed at.

Of course much depends on what kind of story you want to do. I can rail against nuBSG and Firefly and things of that sort because I think they're conceptually flawed, but that doesn't subtract from many people enjoying the storytelling.

Perhaps a more visionary type of Trek--be it actually Star Trek or something else with similar ideas--could connect if it pushed the conceptual limits more.

I don't believe the overall Trek concept is obsolete, though some may disagree, but some of the long established ideas may well be due for a serious rethinking. Note that some of Trek's ideas actually goas far back as SF literature of the 1940s and '50s and maybe even further.

Thoughts?

 

[Sci]

If Star Trek was obsolete, its most recent film would not have made $350 million worldwide.

 

[Anwar]

No, it's not.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Yes, Star Trek is obsolete in the same sense that something like Tarzan is obsolete - what we know about the world/Universe as well as the way we see ourselves in it has evolved so much that none of the specifics can be taken as plausible or mature. Both are pretty firmly in the realm of fantasy rather than anything possible or speculative.

 

[jefferiestubes8]

Is Star Trek obsolete?

I don't believe the overall Trek concept is obsolete, though some may disagree, but some of the long established ideas may well be due for a serious rethinking.

Space
* The final frontier
* The voyages of the starship Enterprise
* An event from its five-year mission
* Exploration of strange new worlds
* Seeking out of new life
* Seeking out of new civilizations
* Boldly going where no one has gone before.

Partly as a result of the intervention and scientific teachings of the Vulcans, humans largely overcame many Earth-bound frailties and vices by the middle of the 22nd century, creating a quasi-utopian society where the central role is played not by money, but rather by the need for exploration and knowledge.

from Wikipedia .
Based on these ideas it is not obsolete.
As a franchise based on the box office receipts in 2009, no it is not obsolete.

many of its perspectives on the future are getting really out of date.
I'm talking about some of the ideas.

I disagree. Roddenberry's ideas and concepts are enough to carry a franchise through feature films and TV series as evidenced over the past 40 years and it could go on another 50. You have some recycled ideas put into them though like 'a submarine movie' put into STII:TWOK.
They are elements of storytelling that can be borrowed.

 

[Warped9]

^^ Maybe I should specify in terms of scientific and technological ideas. Some of the basic concepts such as you've cited are still viable, but how they're expressed perhaps needs to be updated.

For example the way alien life and alien intelligence is depicted needs a serious overhaul. Ditto with inhabited worlds seemingly around every corner.

 

[jefferiestubes8]

scientific and technological ideas expression

^^ Maybe I should specify in terms of scientific and technological ideas.
but how they're expressed perhaps needs to be updated.

For example the way alien life and alien intelligence is depicted needs a serious overhaul. Ditto with inhabited worlds seemingly around every corner.

Are you specifically talking about alien societies?

You have a problem/complaint with how aliens in general are displayed on Star Trek.

Are you talking about Trek aliens being 'too humanoid'? That is a limitation of live-action filmmaking on a TV series and that would be alleviated with animation as it was in The Animated Series TAS even though it had poor quality animation it was 'attempted'.
And may be again.

many of its perspectives on the future are getting really out of date. I'm not talking about visualization and production standards. I'm talking about some of the ideas.

Are you talking about alien spaceship's exterior & interior fuctional design?
Are you takling about alien languages?
Are you talking about alien hand-weapons?
Are you talking about alien spaceship weapons technology?
Are you talking about microscopic lifeforms that should interact with Trek characters?
Are you talking about the presence of water on alien planets?

TV and film SF generally lags about 10-20 years or so behind much of what's being addressed in SF literature and real world science speculation.

a more visionary type of Trek--be it actually Star Trek or something else with similar ideas--could connect if it pushed the conceptual limits more.
TV SF are often distilled for the general audience of which fresh SF literature and cutting edge science speculation are generally not aimed at.

I think you answered your own question. speculative fiction and high concept (low action) science fiction is NOT Star Trek.
Paramount has a bible that all writers working on a Star Trek series must follow and I'm sure it says to stick to the characters and how things relate to them and not the science. [I'm not talking about 30 seconds of technobabble here.]
Perhaps an episode may explore a scientific idea as part of exploring an alien race or planet or phenomena but not dominate a plot of a Trek episode unless it puts the crew in harms way.

For higher concepts you have to turn to feature films like the thread you started deals with it.
Is science fiction better today?
on post #23 I've listed a number of feature films.

This thread deals with science fiction on television.
Why is there no pure Sci-Fi on TV today?

 

[SFRabid]

I'm still pretty sure that when we start to explore the galaxy the women on our space ships with be in miniskirts; answering the phone, delivering meals and handing the captain a pad to sign.

 

[jefferiestubes8]

gender and officers/crew

when we start to explore the galaxy the women on our space ships with be in miniskirts; answering the phone, delivering meals

This thread covered it as far as the gender heiarchy of Starfleet Officers and promotions in Star Trek.
If you are referring to in real life then you are going to be getting some hate mail private messages from the ladies here.
Without responses to SFRabid's post going off topic SFRabid you may want to review this. Enough said.

 

[Warped9]

Interstellar fleets and galactic governments are very old SF ideas going back to at least the 1940s if not earlier. Just look at Asimov's Empire books for example. Same with how FTL travel is depicted. And if it weren't for the occasional nonhumanoid alien you could pretty well classify Trek as an Asimovian universe with so many humans/humanoids even though they're treated as aliens. And this goes for the alien societies as well. Human societies are diverse and not uniform.Why are all alien societies basically depicted as pretty much uniform? (Yeah, I know because for TV it's just easier)

Even teleportation was an old idea when TOS used it.

Don't get me wrong. I still think exploration pushing the frontiers and seeking out new life and strange new worlds is a cool idea that's still relavent. I love space adventure--it's still the most recognizable and arguably the most popular form of SF.

This isn't to rag on the recent movie, but if you're doing a reboot then why not try to update the materiel as well as make it accessible?

And it's not just Trek. If you look at a lot of other TV sci-fi they're really all just doing versions of Trek's presentation. Presently I'm most mindful of how they've introduced FTL starships and teleportation in the two Stargate series. Except that it looks more near future (very near future) and somewhat Army surplus it could pretty much slide right into the Trek universe.

Basically I'm saying I think space adventure needs a kick in the pants to make it more fresh, potentially interesting and maybe even unpredictable to an extent.

 

[jefferiestubes8]

If you look at a lot of other TV sci-fi they're really all just doing versions of Trek's presentation.

Basically I'm saying I think space adventure needs a kick in the pants to make it more fresh, potentially interesting and maybe even unpredictable to an extent.

Based on the box office results of 2009 Star Trek XI the Trek franchise will not be changing the formula for another couple feature films.

There may be a few feature films in the next few years that have a fresh take on space adventure. "Moon" which I saw and here is the thread was a good science fiction space film that took place all within a small geographic area.
I'd take another half dozen of films like that that are not part of a franchise but tell a story than a trilogy of a space sci-fi [non-Trek] franchise set on a FTL spaceship.

I don't believe the overall Trek concept is obsolete...
TMP is really the only one that appeared to try to really move Trek forward and yet even it was limited.

Agreed. The film had some concepts in the writing and plot but the pacing was far too slow for a feature film audience that wants some action adventure that Trek feature films give.

 

[TigerOfDarkness]

TOS started as a branch of Space Opera. A "modern" Space Opera could be constructed on Roddenbery's optimistic lines, but it would be very different. I'm thinking of things like Alastair Reynolds' books.

Personally, I think there's loads of millage left in it - as people have noted ST XI has shown that a general audience wants to see something like ST XI.

 

[Islander]

I don't believe the overall Trek concept is obsolete, though some may disagree, but some of the long established ideas may well be due for a serious rethinking. Note that some of Trek's ideas actually goas far back as SF literature of the 1940s and '50s and maybe even further.

What you describe is more applicable to sci-fi in general than just Trek. As we get closer and closer to our own future and understands ourselves more, we grow out of our fears. The impact of sci-fi is thus expodentially reduced.

Another issue is with fiction in general than was often used for political criticism when it was censored. With the more-or-less true freedom of speech of western countries but especialyl with the Internet, this is no longer requirement and most stories have become purely dramatic and/or comedic, somewhat dolling the genre for some.

 

[Anticitizen]

I think what you may be describing is the obsolescence of not only Star Trek, but the entire 'Golden Age' of science fiction - which, for me, ended in 1981 when William Gibson wrote 'The Gernsback Continuum' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gernsback_Continuum and 'Johnny Mnemonic'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Mnemonic

 

[Sector 7]

when we start to explore the galaxy the women on our space ships with be in miniskirts; answering the phone, delivering meals

This thread covered it as far as the gender heiarchy of Starfleet Officers and promotions in Star Trek.
If you are referring to in real life then you are going to be getting some hate mail private messages from the ladies here.
Without responses to SFRabid's post going off topic SFRabid you may want to review this. Enough said.

SFRabid's post was very much on topic. The title of this thread "Is Trek obsolete?" is answered by the post. All those things listed do make old Trek obsolete... and are humorous, too!

While I understand what the OP is saying, I respectfully disagree with the idea that Trek is obsolete. The huge box office of Star Trek shows that people want what Trek has to offer: a good story combined with action and adventure. I do not believe Star Trek ended in 1979, it is alive and well in 2009.

 

[Navaros]

And none of the subsequent Treks were really any more evolved rthan TNG.

Incorrect. DS9 is orders of magnitude more evolved than TNG and is extremely relevant today.

TNG, VOY, and ENT = yes, totally obsolete.

TOS = some obsolete aspects, ie: 'tapes', the hippy episode, gigantic buttons on the bridge that jut out to the ceiling etc...yet despite that, for the most part its ideas are timeless and therefore always relevant and never obsolete.

DS9 = likewise timeless and therefore always relevant and never obsolete, and with almost no obsolete aspects like 'tapes' or hippy episodes dragging it down like TOS has.

 

[DWF]

And none of the subsequent Treks were really any more evolved rthan TNG.

Incorrect. DS9 is orders of magnitude more evolved than TNG and is extremely relevant today.

TNG, VOY, and ENT = yes, totally obsolete.

TOS = some obsolete aspects, ie: 'tapes', the hippy episode, gigantic buttons on the bridge that jut out to the ceiling etc...yet despite that, for the most part its ideas are timeless and therefore always relevant and never obsolete.

DS9 = likewise timeless and therefore always relevant and never obsolete, and with almost no obsolete aspects like 'tapes' or hippy episodes dragging it down like TOS has.

DS9 and Voyager have been forgotten about, the other shows are at least still on the air. But TNG still remains a well watched and well discussed show. Even JJ Abrams and the writers of the new movie are fans of TNG more so than the other shows.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I don't believe the overall Trek concept is obsolete, though some may disagree, but some of the long established ideas may well be due for a serious rethinking.

Maybe TOS fans who continue to resist embracing the TNG era - or JJ's wildly successful "Star Trek" movie - have made themselves obsolete?

 

[Islander]

DS9 and Voyager have been forgotten about, the other shows are at least still on the air. But TNG still remains a well watched and well discussed show. Even JJ Abrams and the writers of the new movie are fans of TNG more so than the other shows.

Voyager is actually the show I get the most re-runs for (in terms of how many channels have it and how often they play it). And if I'm not mistaken, as far as DS9 is concerned, I think there was a syndication issue that makes it a lot harder and expensive for channels to run it.

 

[Xerxes1979]

What is your opinion of Babylon 5? That was pretty hip and edgy.