The Kobayashi Maru Test

[Jeyl]

He is trying to prevent the ship from going into a trap that, without his warning, would have meant certain doom (it is the fact he realizes this that saves the Enterprise).

How? The Enterprise didn't come under attack by the Narada the moment they came out of Warp. They spent at least a whole minute in the debris field before the Narada open fired. You think the Enterprise crew would be that dumb not to go to red alert the second they saw all their fellow ships destroyed?

 

[Sanae]

He is trying to prevent the ship from going into a trap that, without his warning, would have meant certain doom (it is the fact he realizes this that saves the Enterprise).

How? The Enterprise didn't come under attack by the Narada the moment they came out of Warp. They spent at least a whole minute in the debris field before the Narada open fired. You think the Enterprise crew would be that dumb not to go to red alert the second they saw all their fellow ships destroyed?

Er....if Kirk hadn't managed to get his point across, Capt. Pike wouldn't have ordered to go in Red Alert and raise the shields. Flying into the debris of 6 ex-starships with an unprepared crew and without the shields would have been VERY bad for the Enterprise's integrity.

 

[teacherbrock]

Do you like being the only repeat offender in starfleet?

 

[Ovation]

He is trying to prevent the ship from going into a trap that, without his warning, would have meant certain doom (it is the fact he realizes this that saves the Enterprise).

How? The Enterprise didn't come under attack by the Narada the moment they came out of Warp. They spent at least a whole minute in the debris field before the Narada open fired. You think the Enterprise crew would be that dumb not to go to red alert the second they saw all their fellow ships destroyed?

If Kirk hadn't made his pitch, the Enterprise would have been part of the debris field.

 

[Jeyl]

If Kirk hadn't made his pitch, the Enterprise would have been part of the debris field.

Again, how? Pike didn't order the Enterprise to come out of warp any sooner.

 

[Ovation]

If Kirk hadn't made his pitch, the Enterprise would have been part of the debris field.

Again, how? Pike didn't order the Enterprise to come out of warp any sooner.

He ordered them to raise shields and go to red alert--something that would NOT have happened otherwise.

 

[Jeyl]

Er....if Kirk hadn't managed to get his point across, Capt. Pike wouldn't have ordered to go in Red Alert and raise the shields. Flying into the debris of 6 ex-starships with an unprepared crew and without the shields would have been VERY bad for the Enterprise's integrity.

So the little chunks of debris is far more dangerous than the Narada's torpedoes? When was that established?

 

[Jeyl]

If Kirk hadn't made his pitch, the Enterprise would have been part of the debris field.

Again, how? Pike didn't order the Enterprise to come out of warp any sooner.

He ordered them to raise shields and go to red alert--something that would NOT have happened otherwise.

And again, what difference did that make? The shields didn't help them against the debris at all.

 

[Ovation]

Er....if Kirk hadn't managed to get his point across, Capt. Pike wouldn't have ordered to go in Red Alert and raise the shields. Flying into the debris of 6 ex-starships with an unprepared crew and without the shields would have been VERY bad for the Enterprise's integrity.

So the little chunks of debris is far more dangerous than the Narada's torpedoes? When was that established?

Now you're being obtuse. The debris is a navigating hazard that would compound the problem of going in without being at red alert with shields up.

You hate the new Kirk. We get it. But you're grasping at straws to make him look bad in a context that, much to your chagrin, makes him correct. There are other, far more compelling parts of the film open to criticism than this.

 

[Jeyl]

Now you're being obtuse. The debris is a navigating hazard that would compound the problem of going in without being at red alert with shields up.

That's what the deflector dish is for. That is always on.

Besides the huge chunk of mass that dented the warp engine, there was no immediate danger to the Enterprise when it came out of warp speed over Vulcan. And how long does it take to go to Red Alert and raise the shields? Oh, it's instantaneous once the order is given. Plenty of time.

There are other, far more compelling parts of the film open to criticism than this.

Your right, but this is about Kirk's performance. If you want me to hit up a subject, just ask.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

All the other Starfleet ships were destroyed.

Kirk warned Pike. Pike gave new orders. Enterprise was saved.

It wasn't a complicated sequence, really - easy to understand.

 

[Jeyl]

All the other Starfleet ships were destroyed.

Kirk warned Pike. Pike gave new orders. Enterprise was saved.

The Starfleet Ships were destroyed by the Narada. The Enterprise didn't come under attack by the Narada the moment it exited warp for about a whole minute. It doesn't take more than a minute to raise shields and go to red alert.

Plus Nero stopped his attack on the Enterprise the moment it looked familiar, so you also have that to think about.

 

[flemm]

The Starfleet Ships were destroyed by the Narada. The Enterprise didn't come under attack by the Narada the moment it exited warp for about a whole minute. It doesn't take more than a minute to raise shields and go to red alert.

Plus Nero stopped his attack on the Enterprise the moment it looked familiar, so you also have that to think about.

I think it's worth remembering that Kirk isn't Captain Kirk yet. Even Spock is still a bit green. Take the subsequent sequence, when Nero demands that Pike join him on the Narada. Kirk and Spock haven't gotten any further in their thinking than, "It's a trap!" Pike on the other hand has already crunched the numbers: "I know it's a trap, rookies. I'm going to fly over there to buy us some time and get us in position to do a space jump and take out the drill."

This reminded me a bit of the scene in TWOK, when you realize that Kirk is two steps ahead of everyone else, and that he had been speaking to Spock in code. Kirk just isn't there yet as a strategical thinker, he doesn't have the experience yet.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

The Starfleet Ships were destroyed by the Narada. The Enterprise didn't come under attack by the Narada the moment it exited warp for about a whole minute. It doesn't take more than a minute to raise shields and go to red alert.

All rationalizations to avoid the obvious:

All the other Starfleet ships were destroyed.

Kirk warned Pike. Pike gave new orders. Enterprise was saved.


Oh, and later on Kirk saved the planet Earth. No wonder they make him Captain faster in this continuity than in the old one.

 

[Jeyl]

All rationalizations to avoid the obvious:

All the other Starfleet ships were destroyed.

Kirk warned Pike. Pike gave new orders. Enterprise was saved.

You're not even trying. Warned or not, the Enterprise would still have come out of warp at the same point in time where it had a whole minute to call red alert and raise shields before it came under attack by the Narada.

 

[Jeyl]

Oh, and later on Kirk saved the planet Earth. No wonder they make him Captain faster in this continuity than in the old one.

No, he saved Pike. Spock was the one who stole the ship, destroyed the drill, drew the Narada away from Earth, rammed the ship into the Narada that caused the black hole to emerge and consume Nero into oblivion. Obviously all the credit should go to Kirk alone.

 

[Cakes488]

The Starfleet Ships were destroyed by the Narada. The Enterprise didn't come under attack by the Narada the moment it exited warp for about a whole minute. It doesn't take more than a minute to raise shields and go to red alert.

Plus Nero stopped his attack on the Enterprise the moment it looked familiar, so you also have that to think about.

I think it's worth remembering that Kirk isn't Captain Kirk yet. Even Spock is still a bit green. Take the subsequent sequence, when Nero demands that Pike join him on the Narada. Kirk and Spock haven't gotten any further in their thinking than, "It's a trap!" Pike on the other hand has already crunched the numbers: "I know it's a trap, rookies. I'm going to fly over there to buy us some time and get us in position to do a space jump and take out the drill."

This reminded me a bit of the scene in TWOK, when you realize that Kirk is two steps ahead of everyone else, and that he had been speaking to Spock in code. Kirk just isn't there yet as a strategical thinker, he doesn't have the experience yet.

This right here...good point.

 

[Sanae]

Oh, and later on Kirk saved the planet Earth. No wonder they make him Captain faster in this continuity than in the old one.

No, he saved Pike. Spock was the one who stole the ship, destroyed the drill, drew the Narada away from Earth, rammed the ship into the Narada that caused the black hole to emerge and consume Nero into oblivion. Obviously all the credit should go to Kirk alone.

Yes since it was all thanks to Kirk taking the initiative. Spock wanted to go to the Laurentian system to let Starfleet decide what to do while Nero destroyed Earth and goodness knows which other planets.

Seriously, we know Kirk isn't perfect (neither the old nor the new one) but that's precisely one of the many reasons why MOST of us like him.

 

[Jeyl]

Yes since it was all thanks to Kirk taking the initiative. Spock wanted to go to the Laurentian system to let Starfleet decide what to do while Nero destroyed Earth and goodness knows which other planets.

Well, considering that Kirk didn't have the transwarp beaming equation that was used to help save Earth, Spock's plan was the right course of action to take.

And when Kirk did take command of the Enterprise, it was Spock who suggested that he'd be the one to beam aboard the Narada, meld with one of the Romulans to find the location of Pike and where the black hole device was located. That wasn't Kirk's idea.

Seriously, we know Kirk isn't perfect (neither the old nor the new one) but that's precisely one of the many reasons why MOST of us like him.

Old Kirk's flaws were dealt with, this NuKirk's flaws were not.

 

[Sanae]

You're missing a point here: how it got done is only relatively important, it's the fact that it was KIRK who, after deciding that SOMETHING needed to be done, pushed everyone to come up with ideas to stop Nero from destroying Earth. And, while we're at it, it wasn't even Spock's idea to beam onboard the Narada, it was Chekov's. And the concept of having to get the black hole device was part of Kirk's general plan. Spock 'only' volunteered to carry out the mission.

One of the many things which make Kirk a good captain is that, unlike Spock, he's not only willing to get his crew's ideas into the picture but he often presses people into giving him all they've got.

Also, you're forgetting something else: The new Kirk is only 25. At that age, old Kirk wasn't even Captain nor anywhere near the Enterprise. Give the poor guy a chance, will you please?