Consider this about Kirk's promotion...

[the Sisko]

Another thing is... as far as I can consider reasonable... Starfleet is as war. In American terms... the bad guys nuked Massachusetts, and destroyed every destroyer and carrier group we had at the Naval Academy and most likely every plane at Andrews AFB before a lone battleship saved DC during a shelling.

The battlefield commisions given would have to stand because

1) there aren't any more graduates coming for 2 years at regular speeds (given the assumptions 3rd years came out as ensigns and 4ths years out as Lts).

2) The bad guys intentions are not certain, so as near as I can tell, the Federation and Romulans are at war.

3) Last I checked, military decisions are not made about fairness... they are made about maximizing tactical advantages.

On the flip side, I'll argue against the promotion... Kirk didn't show any of the organizational capability of command. He never changed or reflected on assignments... in fact his board of the Narada with only spock and not a 100 man team is the only reason the Federation didn't capture the Narada. He is needed but his role shouldn't be captain... it should be tactical officer or chief of security as a Lt. Commander or even full Commander. It's there where his great tactical skills can be honed with a Captain's years of experience and reined in so that Starfleet knows it's ships don't do something stupid because a 25 year old had a bad feeling.

 

[Sci]

Another thing is... as far as I can consider reasonable... Starfleet is as war. In American terms... the bad guys nuked Massachusetts, and destroyed every destroyer and carrier group we had at the Naval Academy and most likely every plane at Andrews AFB before a lone battleship saved DC during a shelling.

But it's not exactly at war, because the enemy has been defeated. Bear that in mind, too.

Though tensions with the Klingons ought to be pretty bad in the 2250s.

2) The bad guys intentions are not certain, so as near as I can tell, the Federation and Romulans are at war.

Actually, the film made it clear that they were not at war. Pike assumed that Nero was working for the Empire when they met, but then Nero made it clear he was acting on his own. The Romulans are probably still in their isolationist mode.

3) Last I checked, military decisions are not made about fairness... they are made about maximizing tactical advantages.

On the flip side, I'll argue against the promotion... Kirk didn't show any of the organizational capability of command. He never changed or reflected on assignments... in fact his board of the Narada with only spock and not a 100 man team is the only reason the Federation didn't capture the Narada.

I think it's unlikely that they were able to rig the transporter to beam more than two people at a time across an entire star system.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Though tensions with the Klingons ought to be pretty bad in the 2250s.

Why the hell would the Klingons be pissed at the Feds, it was a Romulan ship that trashed their 47 ships. If anything the Romulans and Klingons are probably going to be beating the crap out of each other.

 

[Sci]

Though tensions with the Klingons ought to be pretty bad in the 2250s.

Why the hell would the Klingons be pissed at the Feds,

Presumably for all of the same reasons they were pissed at the Feds in TOS: Because they're a warmongering, expansionistic empire whose goal was to conquer their neighbors, and they are being thwarted by a liberal democracy whose goal is to peacefully co-exist and/or to consensually unite with its neighbors under the principles of universal liberty, sentient rights, and diplomacy.

it was a Romulan ship that trashed their 47 ships. If anything the Romulans and Klingons are probably going to be beating the crap out of each other.

That's certainly a possibility -- and, indeed, in the prime universe, the Klingons and Romulans have a long history of hatred and conflict broken up only by intermittent alliances of convenience against the Federation.

 

[pookha]

If that’s so, then we have Pike leaving the Enterprise’s command to Spock who had been up to then First Officer, passing that responsibility to the newly commissioned Lt Kirk (one thing which I’ll never understand though and that I don’t see anyone objecting too strongly, is how relatively absurd it is to have a Starfleet Captain sending on a mission impossible his ship’s pilot, the chief engineer and the newly appointed first officer….all the while he goes to pay a visit to the badass of the movie who is likely going go kill him too, now…THAT is weird, to say the least)..

i think he picked kirk because he suspected if anyone could make such a crazy scheme work it would be kirk..

sulu at the start wasnt the primary pilot and they have other backups.

hmm look at the landing party in city.

 

[Sanae]

@Hartzilla2007: Interesting comment, yours. I hope it'll be a part of the plot for the next movie, seeing as I don't think the Klingons took it very well to have 47 of their ships blown to smithereens by a Romulan ship and, knowing them, they won't care that Nero wasn't representing the Romulan Empire.

@pookha: True that. Although, seriously....sending a RED SHIRT too... is it me or Starfleet never learns? (I know JJ totally did that on purpose...LOL)

 

[Praetor]

Though tensions with the Klingons ought to be pretty bad in the 2250s.

Why the hell would the Klingons be pissed at the Feds, it was a Romulan ship that trashed their 47 ships. If anything the Romulans and Klingons are probably going to be beating the crap out of each other.

Yeah, I missed that. Must've been what was going on in the Laurentian System. Maybe some fighting spilled over?

 

[Bartay]

I guess the question I really have is, was Kirk already a commissioned officer, before he was sneaked on board the Enterprise?

In a scene before they board the ship, Uhura is "negotiating" with Spock about which ship she should be placed on. And during their conversation, Spock referred to her as a "Lieutenant".

So could Kirk have the rank of Ensign or Lieutenant Junior Grade, at this time....?

 

[Bartay]

Got this from the Memory Alpha website...

"Lieutenant Junior Grade Saavik was a Starfleet cadet in early 2285, and served aboard the USS Enterprise as navigator under Admiral Kirk during the Genesis crisis."

So this might explain how their curriculum might be handled at the Academy. Someone might receive their commission (Ensign), while still at the Academy. And not given a full release, until you reach the rank of Lieutenant. Or maybe, it's based on the type of profession one is partaking.

"Blue-shirts" (Doctors & Scientists) could vary; anywhere from Ensign to Lieutenant Commander. "Gold-shirts" (Command & Control officers) probably anywhere from Lieutenant Junior Grade to a full Lieutenant, before release from the Academy. "Red-shirts" (Operations), commissioned as an Ensign when finished with all Academy training.

Of course, this is assuming that Saavick would be a "gold-shirt"...

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Got this from the Memory Alpha website...

"Lieutenant Junior Grade Saavik was a Starfleet cadet in early 2285, and served aboard the USS Enterprise as navigator under Admiral Kirk during the Genesis crisis."

So this might explain how their curriculum might be handled at the Academy. Someone might receive their commission (Ensign), while still at the Academy. And not given a full release, until you reach the rank of Lieutenant. Or maybe, it's based on the type of profession one is partaking.

"Blue-shirts" (Doctors & Scientists) could vary; anywhere from Ensign to Lieutenant Commander. "Gold-shirts" (Command & Control officers) probably anywhere from Lieutenant Junior Grade to a full Lieutenant, before release from the Academy. "Red-shirts" (Operations), commissioned as an Ensign when finished with all Academy training.

Of course, this is assuming that Saavick would be a "gold-shirt"...

Saavik was on the command track as indicated by the white slash on her department band on the sleeve of her uniform.

 

[Creedence]

Respectfully, Starfleet members are supposed to be the best and to have more respect for the chain of command than Kirk did in this movie.

That's assuming all things are equal. They are not. Everything is different in this new timeline. Kirk is still essentially Kirk, but he's different enough - perhaps by not having George mold his sense of duty - to be even more of a renegade than ever.

 

[Bartay]

So where does everyone stand, in regards to what rank Kirk was, while his time as First Officer of the Enterprise, before becoming Captain?

Midshipman...?
Ensign...?
LT (Junior Grade)...?
LT...?

 

[Creedence]

Cadet?

 

[Fish1941]

Wouldn't it be pretty damn hard for any captain to have Jim Kirk under his or her command?

I mean, the guy has saved Earth and avenged Vulcan, so he'd basically be a living legend around the Federation. He would have likely accomplished bigger things than any living captain currently in command of a starship.

It would be difficult, I think, for him to be subordinate to anyone. Not because he wouldn't be willing to follow orders, but because his very presence could overshadow the authority of any captain on any vessel he served on.

Maybe they really had no choice but to therefore give him the big job because I think the only alternative would have been to drum him out of Starfleet. And that wouldn't do either.

Are you serious about this? Is this supposed to be an excuse for sloppy writing on the screenwriters' part?

 

[pookha]

my view..
that kirk was already a lt at the time he goes on enterprise.
that the cadets first go out on ships for awhile as ensigns.
they very possibly rotate to a ship and back to the academy for the last two years or so.

that many of them go on up to lt during their last year of the academy depending on their performance review ect..

kirk always had his own unique way of dealing with authority.
some people he obviously respected and others not.

true in both time lines.

 

[Cyke101]

Wouldn't it be pretty damn hard for any captain to have Jim Kirk under his or her command?

I mean, the guy has saved Earth and avenged Vulcan, so he'd basically be a living legend around the Federation. He would have likely accomplished bigger things than any living captain currently in command of a starship.

It would be difficult, I think, for him to be subordinate to anyone. Not because he wouldn't be willing to follow orders, but because his very presence could overshadow the authority of any captain on any vessel he served on.

Maybe they really had no choice but to therefore give him the big job because I think the only alternative would have been to drum him out of Starfleet. And that wouldn't do either.

Are you serious about this? Is this supposed to be an excuse for sloppy writing on the screenwriters' part?

Without getting too political, this is the kind of process that allows civilians with zero military experience to become commander-in-chiefs of the armed forces as well. Not all roads of promotion are the same.

 

[Praetor]

my view..
that kirk was already a lt at the time he goes on enterprise.
that the cadets first go out on ships for awhile as ensigns.
they very possibly rotate to a ship and back to the academy for the last two years or so.

that many of them go on up to lt during their last year of the academy depending on their performance review ect..

kirk always had his own unique way of dealing with authority.
some people he obviously respected and others not.

true in both time lines.

That's something along the lines of what I think.

Let's say that in normal circumstances you're a Cadet (as I don't think they'd use "Midshipman" anymore) until your third year of the Academy. In your third year (maybe second if you're Kirk) you have the option of going out on a training cruise, potentially earning a promotion to Lieutenant by completing this and perhaps also the KM test, allowing you to graduate as a Lieutenant, which I presume Kirk would have. If you already have a doctorate from elsewhere when you enter, like McCoy, you'll be graduated a Lieutenant Commander.

I think, also, that in this more meritocracy-oriented Starfleet you probably stay where you are a while longer. Lietenants probably only make Lieutenant Commander when they become department heads, you get Commander when you're an XO and perhaps a few other exceptions, and when you get command of a Starship (capital "S") you get bumped to Captain.

 

[Peter the Younger]

my view..
that kirk was already a lt at the time he goes on enterprise.
that the cadets first go out on ships for awhile as ensigns.
they very possibly rotate to a ship and back to the academy for the last two years or so.

that many of them go on up to lt during their last year of the academy depending on their performance review ect..

kirk always had his own unique way of dealing with authority.
some people he obviously respected and others not.

true in both time lines.

That's something along the lines of what I think.

Let's say that in normal circumstances you're a Cadet (as I don't think they'd use "Midshipman" anymore) until your third year of the Academy. In your third year (maybe second if you're Kirk) you have the option of going out on a training cruise, potentially earning a promotion to Lieutenant by completing this and perhaps also the KM test, allowing you to graduate as a Lieutenant, which I presume Kirk would have. If you already have a doctorate from elsewhere when you enter, like McCoy, you'll be graduated a Lieutenant Commander.

I think, also, that in this more meritocracy-oriented Starfleet you probably stay where you are a while longer. Lietenants probably only make Lieutenant Commander when they become department heads, you get Commander when you're an XO and perhaps a few other exceptions, and when you get command of a Starship (capital "S") you get bumped to Captain.

This seems reasonable to me. The idea that cadets spend a year "in the field" is already pretty well established in Trek lore, and we have a number of examples - Saavik, references to Kirk being a Lt. when the chronology pegs him at the Academy - that support the idea you could become Lt. JG before graduating.

 

[Praetor]

Yeah - I'd still be happier if you had to go out as a Lieutenant for, say, four years, before coming back and going to "command school" and taking the KM, and maybe it worked that way in Prime by the 2280s, but I think the new timeline is different.

Based on what Pike said in the bar, Starfleet is a lot more "cautious" and might not be able to levy promotions on experience alone, if they're not boldly going so much and people aren't getting the same types of experience than in the Prime 'verse they might have needed.

 

[Cyke101]

Edit: mispost.