The Spock/Uhura Thing: Either Way, Someone Doesn't Look Good

[soot]

It is NOT a sexism thing.

It's really hard not to see it as sexism when your initial post invoked a very slight variation of the old "she slept her way to the top" meme. Is it so hard to accept a woman achieving her goals through merit and tenacity? Must it always be about sex, and her sleeping with the guy in charge? Even when the movie made it plain that she genuinely deserved her posting, and that her relationship with Spock only served to jeopardize it?

I'm fine with your current position. I don't agree, but I can't say I have any problem with your way of thinking. In a crisis situation, priorities often have to shift. We just disagree over whether this situation required the dismissal of these priorities. But you must be able to see why some of the other things you've said haven't gone down as easily.

 

[Kirk1980]

That's probably because I'm in no way familiar with this 'meme' or whatever that is, you're talking about.

They were in a relationship. She went to him, her boyfriend at the time. I did not introduce this idea. The movie did. It left it open for a bad interpretation for the both of them. She should have gone to someone else and reported Spock and Spock should never have put himself in that position to begin with.

 

[Captain Fine]

I'll agree that Spock put himself in a bad position. I do not agree that Uhura was wrong to confront him about it. To suggest she go over his head would have been utterly disrespectful to Spock, to imply that once confronted, he wouldn't be able to make the LOGICAL choice that she belonged on the Enterprise.

She demonstrated her mad skillz. She DESERVED her position. The time it took for Spock to reassign her proved to me that it didn't take too much time from this supposed "emergency" situation, when they didn't even know it was going to be a deadly one.

 

[soot]

That's probably because I'm in no way familiar with this 'meme' or whatever that is, you're talking about.

They were in a relationship. She went to him, her boyfriend at the time. I did not introduce this idea. The movie did. It left it open for a bad interpretation for the both of them. She should have gone to someone else and reported Spock and Spock should never have put himself in that position to begin with.

It's entirely possible I completely misused the word "meme". Maybe "cliche" would have been better. But have you really never come across the concept? You can google the phrase, and you'll find plenty of women getting accused, and plenty of feminists complaining about it.

It was pretty clear that the relationship between them led to Uhura being miss-assigned, and her argument corrected that. I could understand your position if we hadn't been privy to the scene in question, but we were. It was about qualifications, sex didn't enter into it.

 

[galleywest]

Well, the point is that Uhura decided that Uhura was the best person for the job and bullied a person she knew would give in to her in order to get the post she wanted

How on Earth is respectfully but assertively asking for an explanation for irrational and unjust orders the same as "bullying" someone?

It's assertive and cool when it's a male doing it. It's bullying and bitchiness when it's a female. Get it?

It's a bit simple to believe that to see Uhura's behavior as anything other than golden is to be sexist. I am female and I found her behavior in this scene to be annoying. And yes, had it been a male doing the same thing I would still find it annoying (Will Riker, I'm lookin' at you, beardy).

However, the one true thing that has been said about this scene so far is that it was simply poorly written. It does not come off well for Spock, who I did not imagine would be so easily swayed by his feelings to let them get in the way of assigning Uhura and then in reassigning her. In this sense I feel he instigated all this silliness (and it is silliness).

 

[Sci]

I think the most interesting thing about the criticism of that scene -- besides the implicit sexism -- is this notion that we shouldn't see the characters making a stupid mistake or succumbing to imperfections or bad judgement.

That notion -- that if it's a bad decision, the writers shouldn't allow the characters to make them, or else it's bad writing -- is what killed Trek during the Berman era. Characters have to be flawed in order to be honest and real.

And as much as we might criticize Spock, I think he comes off well in that scene. He recognizes that he made an irrational and emotional decision and corrects it once he's made to realize it; he doesn't spend hours on end angsting about it or whining about how it means he's not a perfect Vulcan or whatever. He recognizes a mistake, puts his ego aside, and fixes it immediately.

 

[Kirk1980]

Flawed? Yes. But supposedly Spock is both a Vulcan and a decorated officer in Starfleet.

Here he is neither being logical or much of an officer.

To offer a somewhat more subdued opinion on Uhura, perhaps her vehemence comes off from her lack of experience.

Yes, make them flawed but don't make them this badly off.

And what more information do we need to tell how big of an emergency it is than the fact they interrupted a hearing and had cadets crew ships for a mission?

 

[Sci]

Flawed? Yes. But supposedly Spock is both a Vulcan and a decorated officer in Starfleet.

Here he is neither being logical or much of an officer.

And then he corrects himself with no fuss, no emotion, no ego. Yes, he was being illogical and a poor officer at that point. This is not incompatible with his being a Vulcan and a decorated Starfleet officer, because Vulcans and decorated Starfleet officers are not perfect and sometimes do not live up to their own standards.

To offer a somewhat more subdued opinion on Uhura, perhaps her vehemence comes off from her lack of experience.

I'd say her vehemence is completely justified and comes from her knowledge that she's the best person for the job and being unfairly denied an opportunity she should have. I don't even consider her behavior a flaw.

And what more information do we need to tell how big of an emergency it is than the fact they interrupted a hearing and had cadets crew ships for a mission?

And what more information do we need to tell us how easy this was to fix and how unharmful it was to operational integrity than that it took Spock all of two seconds to reassign her and took Uhura all of thirty seconds to get Spock to see his mistake?

ETA:

It's flaws like this that make these characters come alive and make them characters that an audience can relate to. Only a small minority of people get upset over a good character who nonetheless has a serious flaw.

 

[Kirk1980]

Then be secure you're in the large majority then, Sci and allow me to dwell in my pitiful minority

 

[ShimmeringFacet]

.....With the destruction of Vulcan, it is probable that Spock's devotion to duty and responsibility will preclude any further relationship with Uhura, serving together on the Enterprise.

This one's a no brainer. They both serve on the same ship and will realise that their devotion to duty and their careers will preclude this going further and they will end it amicably and have the same mutual respect they exhibit on TOS.

I meant to comment here- not that this thread needs to return, but..
In any case, it could go the exact opposite direction. The destruction of Vulcan could understandably lead Spock into placing more importance in his personal relationships- not less. Now, with his home planet obliterated he likely lost many friends and aquaintances. He'd also realize that there are countless people whom he might have known or meant something to that now don't even exist. Those posibilites are gone. In an instant.
So he'll likely want to hold even dearer to himself those who are left in his life. I think he'll be able to put his duties into perspective, but give 100% focus when he's engaged in Ent. duties. Vulcans are good at that. Both of them are quite able to behave professionally. I know some people disagree there.

I don't understand why they can't have a relationship and work together. Really. They could have the best kind of relationship- one with a shared passion- their life on the Enterprise. So they wouldn't be distracting and choking each other off- they'd have this common goal and be pulling in the same direction. They could be supportive of and strengthen each other.
We don't know that much about Uhura, but Spock seems to be very important to her, and I don't think she feels as if she has to choose between her work and love.

With Spock saying that now Earth is the only home he has left indicates to me that he's probably going through this type of thought process.

"Discipline" of the asexual undramatic professional variety where people just debate and give out orders on the bridge was what was hurting the franchise in the eyes of much of the public. Someone needed to give the story a kick up the backside and give it some oomph. Stories must have conflict and imperfect characters or else they are just BORING.

Giving something of a dramatic and romantic nature for female non-fans to latch onto was a good move in making the franchise more approachable and exciting to a wider audience. Be thankful.

I think this is a really good point. Those who'd prefer a different type of Trek reboot should consider this. Also I recall JJ saying in an interview that he was making this film for people born in the 80's and 90's. Not sure how this affected his choices, but I've wondered if these younger viewers would relate as well to a distant completely emotionally unavailable Spock. I've also thought that the story of the nerdy, geeky, "weird" guy who wears make-up - the intense guy, the guy who feels deeply but holds it in, the outsider, the guy questioning his identity- having this guy be able to love and get the girl and be accepted by her just for who he is, is a particularly contemporary and relevant take on things.

There is no reason to assume that Starfleet has to adhere to contemporary standards or that those standards would have to apply 200 years from now exactly as they do today. The producers of TOS and the series and movies that followed have always kept that aspect of the show kind of vague, using only what they needed to tell the story. This isn't a show about the military. Never has, nor should it be. I sympathise with those who feel that the actual service would do things differently, but that's never been what the show was about, and therefore I never expect that in any of Star Trek's incarnations

I agree with this take on things.

 

[Amaris]

I think the most interesting thing about the criticism of that scene -- besides the implicit sexism -- is this notion that we shouldn't see the characters making a stupid mistake or succumbing to imperfections or bad judgement.

That notion -- that if it's a bad decision, the writers shouldn't allow the characters to make them, or else it's bad writing -- is what killed Trek during the Berman era. Characters have to be flawed in order to be honest and real.

And as much as we might criticize Spock, I think he comes off well in that scene. He recognizes that he made an irrational and emotional decision and corrects it once he's made to realize it; he doesn't spend hours on end angsting about it or whining about how it means he's not a perfect Vulcan or whatever. He recognizes a mistake, puts his ego aside, and fixes it immediately.

Exactly!
And I love the Spock/Uhura relationship.

J.

 

[pookha]

It does not come off well for Spock, who I did not imagine would be so easily swayed by his feelings to let them get in the way of assigning Uhura and then in reassigning her. In this sense I feel he instigated all this silliness (and it is silliness).

i dont think to spock's view point feelings came into it.
he probably saw to his point of logical view someone might see favortism if uhura was assigned to enterprise even if someone within the engineering and support services division asked for her.
but uhura stood up for herself and presented her own logical arguement why she had earned her place on enterprise.
that no logical starfleet officer could say it was favortism because of that.

and look one dosnt even have to be boyfriend girlfriend for this type of stuff to come up.

one can be friends of long standing with someone higher up.. a friend ship that was already existing before the other person moved upward.
and the person promoted may have to be in a position of having to state the case of why they earned their promotion.

i still admire uhura for doing what she did.
especially considering she might have thought her superiour skills could be of use.

 

[seniorsleuth]

.....With the destruction of Vulcan, it is probable that Spock's devotion to duty and responsibility will preclude any further relationship with Uhura, serving together on the Enterprise.

This one's a no brainer. They both serve on the same ship and will realise that their devotion to duty and their careers will preclude this going further and they will end it amicably and have the same mutual respect they exhibit on TOS.

I meant to comment here- not that this thread needs to return, but..
In any case, it could go the exact opposite direction. The destruction of Vulcan could understandably lead Spock into placing more importance in his personal relationships- not less. Now, with his home planet obliterated he likely lost many friends and aquaintances. He'd also realize that there are countless people whom he might have known or meant something to that now don't even exist. Those posibilites are gone. In an instant.
So he'll likely want to hold even dearer to himself those who are left in his life. I think he'll be able to put his duties into perspective, but give 100% focus when he's engaged in Ent. duties. Vulcans are good at that. Both of them are quite able to behave professionally. I know some people disagree there.

I don't understand why they can't have a relationship and work together. Really. They could have the best kind of relationship- one with a shared passion- their life on the Enterprise. So they wouldn't be distracting and choking each other off- they'd have this common goal and be pulling in the same direction. They could be supportive of and strengthen each other.
We don't know that much about Uhura, but Spock seems to be very important to her, and I don't think she feels as if she has to choose between her work and love.

With Spock saying that now Earth is the only home he has left indicates to me that he's probably going through this type of thought process.

"Discipline" of the asexual undramatic professional variety where people just debate and give out orders on the bridge was what was hurting the franchise in the eyes of much of the public. Someone needed to give the story a kick up the backside and give it some oomph. Stories must have conflict and imperfect characters or else they are just BORING.

Giving something of a dramatic and romantic nature for female non-fans to latch onto was a good move in making the franchise more approachable and exciting to a wider audience. Be thankful.

I think this is a really good point. Those who'd prefer a different type of Trek reboot should consider this. Also I recall JJ saying in an interview that he was making this film for people born in the 80's and 90's. Not sure how this affected his choices, but I've wondered if these younger viewers would relate as well to a distant completely emotionally unavailable Spock. I've also thought that the story of the nerdy, geeky, "weird" guy who wears make-up - the intense guy, the guy who feels deeply but holds it in, the outsider, the guy questioning his identity- having this guy be able to love and get the girl and be accepted by her just for who he is, is a particularly contemporary and relevant take on things.

There is no reason to assume that Starfleet has to adhere to contemporary standards or that those standards would have to apply 200 years from now exactly as they do today. The producers of TOS and the series and movies that followed have always kept that aspect of the show kind of vague, using only what they needed to tell the story. This isn't a show about the military. Never has, nor should it be. I sympathise with those who feel that the actual service would do things differently, but that's never been what the show was about, and therefore I never expect that in any of Star Trek's incarnations

I agree with this take on things.

I agree with your take. People born in the 80s and 90s have no connection to the formulas of dramatic television in the 1960s, in which there were NO female lead characters and NO male hero could ever have anything but a disposable female love interest. The formula was sexist at the time, but at least they THOUGHT they had valid economic reasons to do it.

Those reasons have since gone the way of the DoDo. To attract any kind of youngish female audience to this film you would have to do two things: 1) Have at least one regular female character that was more significant than TOS Uhura ever was; and 2) Have an ongoing (but not trouble free) romance between two regular characters.

They chose to kill two birds with one stone here, and I can guarantee you this film would not have attracted the numbers it has without this. Non-fans are at least as vital as fans in keeping a film franchise alive, and even some fans are excited about the new developments. Many NEW fans have clearly been created by it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

What is the appeal of having a completely unchanged, stoic Spock anyway? It would be, um, illogical that the timeline changes would not have affected him. I just don't get it.